GMU vs. UIUC vs. UC Davis vs. Case Western Forum

[ivonmx]

First of all, I know it's kind of late to ask this kind of question but I still wish anyone of you can give me some idea and point me a way out.
So let me start with my 2013 result, my cycle ended up with admissions from GMU ($9000/year), UIUC, UC Davis and Case Western (free ride). And here is a couple of facts about me and the schools to get you started:
1. About me: IP guy. Virginian resident. International student. Long distance relationship (if going to law school).
2. GMU: In-state tuition @GMU + $9K is very attractive. However, GMU's satellite campus isn't very appealing to me and my open-house experience wasn't too good either. Most jobs are in public sector so it's a big minus for me because I am not an US citizen.
3. UC Davis: I like California and kind of want to move to a new place. UC Davis seems to have a strong concentration in IP law and I like its foreign exchange program. However, no scholarship for foreign students.
4. UIUC: Good school but US news ranking is on a free fall. No doubt that UIUC's living cost is going to be low but I'm not sure about the student life. It also has the best international recognition which is good if I am going to practice in a foreign country.
5. Case Western: I am really attracted by the price tag but not sure about the other things.

What do you think? If you don't want to type your answer please just do a poll. I really appreciate your advice after memorial day barbecue

[Micdiddy]

COA at each school and LSAT/gpa?

[illini22]

Enough information out there to make an inform decision. Look at the NLJ placement of each school, for 2012 and make a decision.

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0127225923

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0427233603

I can only speak as to U of I. I just graduated, and rankings are BS. The school is the same, the education is the same, and placement will be the same. People can bla all they want. But you get hired because of the alumni of the school, and "overall reputation." for places that do not have alumni. Lawyers do not have time to read the rankings every year. If anything, they stay with the overall ranking idea they had when they were in law school, for which Illinois was traditionally ranked top 25 for decades.

As a side note, I know people care about rankings, I cared when I didnt know better. But it is a joke for me that people would consider a school like Case Western when thinking about Illinois. Unless you wanted to work in Cleveland. I didnt even apply to such low ranked school even as safeties. If I were you, I would take Illinois while I can. Not that this is you, but because of the ranking free fall, people that wouldnt have gotten in are able to do so now. Schools like Case are, all will likely remain tier 2 schools. Illinois has always been a top 25 school. The "scandal" make it take a nose dive, but the school will eventually go back to where it has been for over 100 years. In 5 years, when the school is back to where it has always been, you would not regret a "rankings" decision. Even though your decision should nonetheless not be based one that. I can honestly say that none of these schools are great. But the shit show that graduating as a 3L without a NLJ 250 job can be better avoided by Illinois, out of those options.

PS: Lots of international students at U of I.

[Eberry]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206299

[romothesavior]

Did you draw these schools out of a hat? Your approach to law school applications seems to have lacked any sort of geographic coherence.

UC Davis and UIUC are out at sticker. GMU in-state is nice, but your scholarship still leaves you well over 100k in debt. And Case Western with a full ride is a solid option for someone with strong Midwestern/Ohio ties, but the school's job prospects are pretty bad overall and I wouldn't want to just relocate to Cleveland and cross my fingers. Law school is a big investment of time and money, and you're putting yourself waaaay behind the 8-ball at all of these schools.

Quite honestly, I think you need to retake/reapply. None of these schools really works at these prices considering your lack of ties and your goals.

[romothesavior]

UIUC argument

Let me preface this by saying that I am an Illinois native and have a great deal of respect for Illinois as a school. But your post smells strongly of homerism.

First, Illinois is not worth anywhere near OOS sticker, which is what it sounds like it will cost OP. That is over 200k in debt for a sub-25% shot at a firm of 100+. I go to a peer Midwestern school, and I would never recommend anyone pay 200k+ to go to school here. There are very few schools in the country worth that kind of dough, and UIUC is not one of them.

Second, I agree that Case is nowhere near on par with UIUC. But free at Case is almost certainly better than OOS sticker at UIUC. And re-take for a full-ride to UIUC or for a T14 with scholarship is far, far better than both of those options.

Finally, I agree that rankings are pretty much worthless. I'm one of the most anti-USNWR people on TLS and I rail against the use of rankings to pick a school constantly. Yearly fluctuations mean nothing. But UIUC's fall is the one situation where I've taken a "wait and see" approach. I don't think UIUC is a worse school now that it's ranked in the 40s or wherever; a rankings rise/drop isn't a driver of yearly job placement. I do think it could suffer, however, from the big hit in student quality and the damage to its reputation. It'll be a few years before all of this shakes out, since it'll be another year or two before we have any "post-scandal" job data. But if UIUC is still ranked 30 spots lower and if they're still suffering from deflated median LSAT/GPA scores in a few years, then I think it'd be hard to see them continuing to place on par with their traditional peers (ND/WUSTL/UMN). I certainly wouldn't tell anyone to avoid UIUC for this reason, but all things being equal, it would give me some pause as a prospective student.

All of this is fairly speculative/academic at this point, and doesn't really matter much to OP. At the end of the day, even if UIUC continues to place like it historically has, the school is not worth anywhere near OOS sticker, and OP should not consider going there at the current price.

[rad lulz]

Did you draw these schools out of a hat? Your approach to law school applications seems to have lacked any sort of geographic coherence.

UC Davis and UIUC are out at sticker. GMU in-state is nice, but your scholarship still leaves you well over 100k in debt. And Case Western with a full ride is a solid option for someone with strong Midwestern/Ohio ties, but the school's job prospects are pretty bad overall and I wouldn't want to just relocate to Cleveland and cross my fingers. Law school is a big investment of time and money, and you're putting yourself waaaay behind the 8-ball at all of these schools.

Quite honestly, I think you need to retake/reapply. None of these schools really works at these prices considering your lack of ties and your goals.

Agree w this

[hephaestus]

You should certainly retake and wait a year. This is an imperative since you are international. If you require sponsorship, you essentially need big law.

[jbagelboy]

Really all I have to say is, don't go to UC Davis. liking california is not a good enough reason to attend a school with those employment figures and no ties.

i would go to GMU if you want to stay in VA and Illinois if you want to move.

[ivonmx]

Thanks all for your replies. To answer romothesavior’s question, I didn't pick the school based on their location. I know most TLS folks are suggesting to stay in NJL because that’s where most job placements are, however, I want to find a job in east Asia and international recognition is a big factor for me. I applied to GMU mainly because it’s close to where I am living/working right now, picked Case Western because one of my family members is from there, added UIUC because of its well-known engineering school and its interesting IP program, and finally I gave UC Davis a shot because that’s probably the best school in Cali within my range.

In addition, I only received admissions from the schools listed here so I don’t have too much options here. My LSAT is 162 and that’s my third attempt already - retaking isn't really an option for me. Hope that clears everything up and gives everyone a rough idea why I am comparing between those schools. Granted, none of these schools is great school but please consider that my number isn't great either 

[rad lulz]

Thanks all for your replies. To answer romothesavior’s question, I didn't pick the school based on their location. I know most TLS folks are suggesting to stay in NJL because that’s where most job placements are, however, I want to find a job in east Asia and international recognition is a big factor for me. I applied to GMU mainly because it’s close to where I am living/working right now, picked Case Western because one of my family members is from there, added UIUC because of its well-known engineering school and its interesting IP program, and finally I gave UC Davis a shot because that’s probably the best school in Cali within my range.

In addition, I only received admissions from the schools listed here so I don’t have too much options here. My LSAT is 162 and that’s my third attempt already - retaking isn't really an option for me. Hope that clears everything up and gives everyone a rough idea why I am comparing between those schools. Granted, none of these schools is great school but please consider that my number isn't great either 

Then consider not going to law school right now

[rickgrimes69]

I want to find a job in east Asia and international recognition is a big factor for me.

Then don't go to any of these schools. I really doubt anybody outside the States have heard of any of them.

[illini22]

UIUC argument

Let me preface this by saying that I am an Illinois native and have a great deal of respect for Illinois as a school. But your post smells strongly of homerism.

First, Illinois is not worth anywhere near OOS sticker, which is what it sounds like it will cost OP. That is over 200k in debt for a sub-25% shot at a firm of 100+. I go to a peer Midwestern school, and I would never recommend anyone pay 200k+ to go to school here. There are very few schools in the country worth that kind of dough, and UIUC is not one of them.

Second, I agree that Case is nowhere near on par with UIUC. But free at Case is almost certainly better than OOS sticker at UIUC. And re-take for a full-ride to UIUC or for a T14 with scholarship is far, far better than both of those options.

Finally, I agree that rankings are pretty much worthless. I'm one of the most anti-USNWR people on TLS and I rail against the use of rankings to pick a school constantly. Yearly fluctuations mean nothing. But UIUC's fall is the one situation where I've taken a "wait and see" approach. I don't think UIUC is a worse school now that it's ranked in the 40s or wherever; a rankings rise/drop isn't a driver of yearly job placement. I do think it could suffer, however, from the big hit in student quality and the damage to its reputation. It'll be a few years before all of this shakes out, since it'll be another year or two before we have any "post-scandal" job data. But if UIUC is still ranked 30 spots lower and if they're still suffering from deflated median LSAT/GPA scores in a few years, then I think it'd be hard to see them continuing to place on par with their traditional peers (ND/WUSTL/UMN). I certainly wouldn't tell anyone to avoid UIUC for this reason, but all things being equal, it would give me some pause as a prospective student.

All of this is fairly speculative/academic at this point, and doesn't really matter much to OP. At the end of the day, even if UIUC continues to place like it historically has, the school is not worth anywhere near OOS sticker, and OP should not consider going there at the current price.

Sorry if I misunderstood the post. I thought he said he had a FULL RIDE to UIUC and CASE. So between full rides to both, thats why I was so surprised that this was even a question.

[romothesavior]

Ah gotcha, that makes sense.

[BigZuck]

I want to find a job in east Asia and international recognition is a big factor for me.

Then don't go to any of these schools. I really doubt anybody outside the States have heard of any of them.

I'm inside the states and I have barely heard of them. I know Davis decently well because of CA ties. George Mason just because they shockingly made it to the final four one year. Case Western just because they spam my inbox to try and get me to apply there. And is the other school the Fighting Illini?

These schools are random and I doubt most people would care about them at all internationally. Hell, I doubt anyone would care about a school like Duke or Penn unless they were from this country.

Also, I find it interesting that since TLS (Romo?) initiated the whole "you have to tell us how many times you have taken the LSAT" thing there have been a lot more people reporting that they are maxed out. There has also been more "COA doesn't matter because my parents are crazy rich." Makes me wonder...

OP: all of this is to say "Retake" if you want a shot at fulfilling your career aspirations.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

If 162 is your third attempt, I'm guessing you've exhausted all your options. I guess your best law school option is Mason at a COA of $125k? That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Don't take sticker at anywhere else. You won't be able to pay it back with those employment prospects.

IMO, if you're really set on law, Mason at $125k. If you're not, don't go anywhere.

[hephaestus]

If you can't/won't retake, then don't go. If you feel you have to go, pick Case Western since its the best option financially.

[BigZuck]

If 162 is your third attempt, I'm guessing you've exhausted all your options. I guess your best law school option is Mason at a COA of $125k? That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Don't take sticker at anywhere else. You won't be able to pay it back with those employment prospects.

IMO, if you're really set on law, Mason at $125k. If you're not, don't go anywhere.

No. George Mason is not a good law school. 125K for a 50% chance at being a lawyer and 10% chance of making enough as a lawyer to pay off the debt? No thanks.

Retake or don't go.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

If 162 is your third attempt, I'm guessing you've exhausted all your options. I guess your best law school option is Mason at a COA of $125k? That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Don't take sticker at anywhere else. You won't be able to pay it back with those employment prospects.

IMO, if you're really set on law, Mason at $125k. If you're not, don't go anywhere.

No. George Mason is not a good law school. 125K for a 50% chance at being a lawyer and 10% chance of making enough as a lawyer to pay off the debt? No thanks.

Retake or don't go.

At Mason you will probably at least have a job, even if it's a crappy government job that forces you to take 10 years to pay back your debt. At Case Western, who knows if you'll even be employed? Mason's worth $50k more than Case Western.

OP can't retake, 162 is his third try. Nor is there any indication that OP has any better non-law options.

[BigZuck]

If 162 is your third attempt, I'm guessing you've exhausted all your options. I guess your best law school option is Mason at a COA of $125k? That wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. Don't take sticker at anywhere else. You won't be able to pay it back with those employment prospects.

IMO, if you're really set on law, Mason at $125k. If you're not, don't go anywhere.

No. George Mason is not a good law school. 125K for a 50% chance at being a lawyer and 10% chance of making enough as a lawyer to pay off the debt? No thanks.

Retake or don't go.

At Mason you will probably at least have a job, even if it's a crappy government job that forces you to take 10 years to pay back your debt. At Case Western, who knows if you'll even be employed? Mason's worth $50k more than Case Western.

OP can't retake, 162 is his third try. Nor is there any indication that OP has any better non-law options.

No. For reasons why not: see my post above

There's always options. For example: work retail. Become a teacher. Etc, etc.

[romothesavior]

Mason at 125k+ is not a good idea. None of these schools are.

Op Does your home country have an extradition treaty with the US? You could just flee the country if you strike out.

[jbagelboy]

Mason at 125k+ is not a good idea. None of these schools are.

Op Does your home country have an extradition treaty with the US? You could just flee the country if you strike out.

Yea. take maximum debt ($300K+) and live like a baller for three years, then bail. No alumni reunions for you, though.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Based on the schools he reported getting accepted into, I'm guessing OP's GPA is not extraordinarily high. If it is, however, then it's not unheard of for UVA to take residents who ED with a 162. It would be a total hail mary, and to my knowledge has never worked for anyone below a 3.85, but the cost of trying (just an app fee and he could get an answer in fifteen days) is really low compared to the payoff of UVA at sticker--way, way better than any of his other options.

But that's extraordinarily unlikely. To me it looks like OP has three relatively inexpensive Tier 1 options. I would suggest OP also give BYU a try (better employment stats than Mason) and William and Mary (the best employment stats of the three by far). OP may get less $ (or none) from the other two, but if he hasn't tried this is well worth taking another cycle to give a go. BYU is cheaper, and William and Mary's tuition is a little higher but is offset by COL.

Also, it would be good if everyone could think a little longer-term on these decisions. If you're not T20, you won't be balling at 30, and you won't be more than halfway through to paying a five or low-six figure debt. But even if you whiff at Midlaw, you are in a way, way better position at 40 having worked a government job on IBR/PAYE for 15 years with a Tier 1 JD than you are having worked retail for 15 years.

[BigZuck]

Based on the schools he reported getting accepted into, I'm guessing OP's GPA is not extraordinarily high. If it is, however, then it's not unheard of for UVA to take residents who ED with a 162. It would be a total hail mary, and to my knowledge has never worked for anyone below a 3.85, but the cost of trying (just an app fee and he could get an answer in fifteen days) is really low compared to the payoff of UVA at sticker--way, way better than any of his other options.

But that's extraordinarily unlikely. To me it looks like OP has three relatively inexpensive Tier 1 options. I would suggest OP also give BYU a try (better employment stats than Mason) and William and Mary (the best employment stats of the three by far). OP may get less $ (or none) from the other two, but if he hasn't tried this is well worth taking another cycle to give a go. BYU is cheaper, and William and Mary's tuition is a little higher but is offset by COL.

Also, it would be good if everyone could think a little longer-term on these decisions. If you're not T20, you won't be balling at 30, and you won't be more than halfway through to paying a five or low-six figure debt. But even if you whiff at Midlaw, you are in a way, way better position at 40 having worked a government job on IBR/PAYE for 15 years with a Tier 1 JD than you are having worked retail for 15 years.

Please stop. You're making us clueless 0Ls look even worse than we already do.

[shifty_eyed]

Based on the schools he reported getting accepted into, I'm guessing OP's GPA is not extraordinarily high. If it is, however, then it's not unheard of for UVA to take residents who ED with a 162. It would be a total hail mary, and to my knowledge has never worked for anyone below a 3.85, but the cost of trying (just an app fee and he could get an answer in fifteen days) is really low compared to the payoff of UVA at sticker--way, way better than any of his other options.

But that's extraordinarily unlikely. To me it looks like OP has three relatively inexpensive Tier 1 options. I would suggest OP also give BYU a try (better employment stats than Mason) and William and Mary (the best employment stats of the three by far). OP may get less $ (or none) from the other two, but if he hasn't tried this is well worth taking another cycle to give a go. BYU is cheaper, and William and Mary's tuition is a little higher but is offset by COL.

Also, it would be good if everyone could think a little longer-term on these decisions. If you're not T20, you won't be balling at 30, and you won't be more than halfway through to paying a five or low-six figure debt. But even if you whiff at Midlaw, you are in a way, way better position at 40 having worked a government job on IBR/PAYE for 15 years with a Tier 1 JD than you are having worked retail for 15 years.

Please stop. You're making us clueless 0Ls look even worse than we already do.

BYU for a (presumably) non-Mormon international student)????