University of Wisconsin vs. University of Minnesota Forum

[enderbender]

I just got into University of Minnesota off their waitlist and have a week to decide, before I was set on UW but now not so much.

LSAT/GPA are 165 and 3.2, I've only taken the test once. I went to Madison for my undergrad and love the city and I would prefer working in Wisconsin over Minnesota. I am originally from north east Illinois, just north of Chicago, and have family legal connections there as well. I don't have residency in either state, but I think cost of living would be cheaper in Madison. Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

[worldtraveler]

Cost?

[jbagelboy]

Cost?

we have to know cost.

at equal cost, Minnesota all the way. better school.

If madison is significantly cheaper for you & you want to work in WI, then its justified choosing it over UMN

[enderbender]

I've got $20,000 a year to both, so it's about equal. I think Minnesota might be somewhere around $5,000 more per year, but really not that much different. I'll be paying around 20-25 grand per year for each. Plus all other expenses.

[Nightrunner]

at equal cost, Minnesota all the way. better school.

Minnesota employment info
Wisconsin employment info

Bear in mind that Minnesota's employment numbers are also inflated by their relatively large percentage of students employed by the school (6.4%), compared to Wisconsin's relatively low percentage of graduates employed by the school (2.8%). Accounting for that:

* General employment ratings are within 2% of each other.
* Minnesota puts 3.4% more students in underemployment.
* Minnesota has more unreported graduates.
* Minnesota puts 3.6% more students in big firms.
* Minnesota puts 3.2% more students in clerkships.

Minnesota might absolutely be the right choice for OP (although I question whether the Minnesota alumni network will be nearly as strong in northern Illinois as the Wisconsin alumni network would be), but let's not pretend that this is a straight-up "one school murders the other" situation.

[minnbills]

How come you don't have residency in WI? Their in-state tuition is a killer deal.

[enderbender]

It is, but I've been living here for school and UW doesn't view that as being a resident (despite my living here full time and working and paying taxes and all that fun stuff). I'm working on appealing but they're notorious about being hardasses when it comes to residency. I'm from Illinois initially and that's where the problem comes in.

[minnbills]

It is, but I've been living here for school and UW doesn't view that as being a resident (despite my living here full time and working and paying taxes and all that fun stuff). I'm working on appealing but they're notorious about being hardasses when it comes to residency. I'm from Illinois initially and that's where the problem comes in.

Wow that sucks. Have you considered taking a year off to work in WI?

As a UMN student who loves the U I'll echo what others have said: there's probably not much difference between these two schools. When I was considering UW I did worry about the lack of a large home market, though.

[BigZuck]

Neither. Both are way too expensive.

Your best bet is to retake and set your sights on Northwestern.

[TripTrip]

Minnesota will place better in Wisconsin than UW. But even though I'm usually a UMN shill on here, $20k is not enough unless you've got some way to keep the debt down.

[enderbender]

What I have is a guaranteed fallback legal job in Northern IL if I can't find gainful employment on my own merits. Not biglaw but it would be an easily livable wage, and with the way the market is, it's sounding like I'm gonna have to be happy with whatever I can get.

[hephaestus]

What I have is a guaranteed fallback legal job in Northern IL if I can't find gainful employment on my own merits. Not biglaw but it would be an easily livable wage, and with the way the market is, it's sounding like I'm gonna have to be happy with whatever I can get.

Why not retake?

[enderbender]

I had thought about it, but with a 3.2 gpa would the couple more points I might earn really bump me up to the Northwestern level? It's not something I'm opposed to but I was surprised about getting into Minnesota with my numbers.

[minnbills]

Minnesota will place better in Wisconsin than UW. But even though I'm usually a UMN shill on here, $20k is not enough unless you've got some way to keep the debt down.

Why do you say that? I think locals generally like to hire locals.

[Nightrunner]

Minnesota will place better in Wisconsin than UW. But even though I'm usually a UMN shill on here, $20k is not enough unless you've got some way to keep the debt down.

Why do you say that? I think locals generally like to hire locals.

Yeah, I've never seen anything in real data or anecdata to indicate that this guy has any idea what he's talking about. But I'm always open to reading a good source.

[sparty99]

Minnesota will place better in Wisconsin than UW. But even though I'm usually a UMN shill on here, $20k is not enough unless you've got some way to keep the debt down.

This is not true. UW is the premiere law school in the state and graduates from the school do not have to take the Wisconsin bar. The fact that UW is cheaper and you will be a member of the Wisconsin bar, makes UW the top choice. UM will give you a slight advantage if you want to work in the Minneapolis market. However, the majority of big law firms in Minneapolis also recruit at UW. You will have to be Top 20-30% at either school to be competitive for those positions. Madison and Minneapolis cost of living are about the same. Wisconsin is also closer to Chicago, which will give you easier access to interview for those positions. So basically, if you go to Wisconsin you will be competitive for Wisconsin jobs (because you will be a member of their state bar) AND a nearby state depending on what bar you will take (Illinois or Minnesota). If you go to Minnesota, you will have to take a neibhoring states bar exam.

I would retake the LSAT, however, and work a full year in Wisconsin. The school is not worth $20,000 a year. Why didn't you apply to Illinois if you are from there?

[enderbender]

Minnesota will place better in Wisconsin than UW. But even though I'm usually a UMN shill on here, $20k is not enough unless you've got some way to keep the debt down.

This is not true. UW is the premiere law school in the state and graduates from the school do not have to take the Wisconsin bar. The fact that UW is cheaper and you will be a member of the Wisconsin bar, makes UW the top choice. UM will give you a slight advantage if you want to work in the Minneapolis market. However, the majority of big law firms in Minneapolis also recruit at UW. You will have to be Top 20-30% at either school to be competitive for those positions. Madison and Minneapolis cost of living are about the same. Wisconsin is also closer to Chicago, which will give you easier access to interview for those positions. So basically, if you go to Wisconsin you will be competitive for Wisconsin jobs (because you will be a member of their state bar) AND a nearby state depending on what bar you will take (Illinois or Minnesota). If you go to Minnesota, you will have to take a neibhoring states bar exam.

I would retake the LSAT, however, and work a full year in Wisconsin. The school is not worth $20,000 a year. Why didn't you apply to Illinois if you are from there?

Did apply to Illinois, currently on the waitlist. And I still think I'd prefer UW over Illinois, I really am not a fan of UIUC. And debt is not a huge factor as I have a decent amount of savings, no current student loan debt, and will receive some family support. However, I would like to keep the cost down just for savings sake. Working a year is an option though, and it's something I'll seriously consider.

[TripTrip]

Minnesota will place better in Wisconsin than UW. But even though I'm usually a UMN shill on here, $20k is not enough unless you've got some way to keep the debt down.

Why do you say that? I think locals generally like to hire locals.

Yeah, I've never seen anything in real data or anecdata to indicate that this guy has any idea what he's talking about. But I'm always open to reading a good source.

After reviewing some stats, I suppose I exaggerated MN a little. If you want to work in Eau Claire or anywhere west of there (Hudson!), UMN is more local than UW. In Madison and Milwaukee they'll be comparable.

OP, the "work for a year" advice is credited.

[Dr. Dre]

Go to Minnesota bruh. The dood from Paper Chase went to UG there.

[kalvano]

Let me reiterate a very valid consideration: you don't have to take the Wisconsin bar from UW. That's amazing to me.

[jbagelboy]

Let me reiterate a very valid consideration: you don't have to take the Wisconsin bar from UW. That's amazing to me.

Not really.. I'd take 7% better AIII + biglaw over skipping a few months studying for a highly passable test any day

[jbagelboy]

but let's not pretend that this is a straight-up "one school murders the other" situation.

Agreed. Neither will give a great shot at biglaw anyway, both are very regional and service a specific market. However:

at equal cost, Minnesota all the way. better school.

Bear in mind that Minnesota's employment numbers are also inflated by their relatively large percentage of students employed by the school (6.4%), compared to Wisconsin's relatively low percentage of graduates employed by the school (2.8%). Accounting for that:

* General employment ratings are within 2% of each other.
* Minnesota puts 3.4% more students in underemployment.
* Minnesota has more unreported graduates.
* Minnesota puts 3.6% more students in big firms.
* Minnesota puts 3.2% more students in clerkships.

The bolded is the only data that I would really care about when looking at employment figures for answers, unless the school funded was absurd like at UVA or GWU level. Thats a significant margin when we are talkiing about basically 18% vs 11%. Normally I would not cross a learned poster like yourself -- and I do so humbly and have tremendous respect -- however, please know that I researched UMN and its placement potential extensively when my SO was considering the graduate school for a Ph.D program. In Minneapolis, it places overwhelmingly better than UW. It's a dominant force despite heavy competition in top firms from Michigan/NU. Yet UMN still secures these top jobs for the top 20% of its class (which no other minnesota law school comes close to doing). Admittedly, the further towards milwaukee you go, the stronger UW gets, but if OP wants to practice in the twin cities its UMN hands down.

[minnbills]

Yet UMN still secures these top jobs for the top 20% of its class (which no other minnesota law school comes close to doing). Admittedly, the further towards milwaukee you go, the stronger UW gets, but if OP wants to practice in the twin cities its UMN hands down.

Be careful. A significant portion of that chunk is IP or diversity. The "real" number is probably closer to 15%.

[sparty99]

but let's not pretend that this is a straight-up "one school murders the other" situation.

Agreed. Neither will give a great shot at biglaw anyway, both are very regional and service a specific market. However:

at equal cost, Minnesota all the way. better school.

Bear in mind that Minnesota's employment numbers are also inflated by their relatively large percentage of students employed by the school (6.4%), compared to Wisconsin's relatively low percentage of graduates employed by the school (2.8%). Accounting for that:

* General employment ratings are within 2% of each other.
* Minnesota puts 3.4% more students in underemployment.
* Minnesota has more unreported graduates.
* Minnesota puts 3.6% more students in big firms.
* Minnesota puts 3.2% more students in clerkships.

The bolded is the only data that I would really care about when looking at employment figures for answers, unless the school funded was absurd like at UVA or GWU level. Thats a significant margin when we are talkiing about basically 18% vs 11%. Normally I would not cross a learned poster like yourself -- and I do so humbly and have tremendous respect -- however, please know that I researched UMN and its placement potential extensively when my SO was considering the graduate school for a Ph.D program. In Minneapolis, it places overwhelmingly better than UW. It's a dominant force despite heavy competition in top firms from Michigan/NU. Yet UMN still secures these top jobs for the top 20% of its class (which no other minnesota law school comes close to doing). Admittedly, the further towards milwaukee you go, the stronger UW gets, but if OP wants to practice in the twin cities its UMN hands down.

So out of a class of 200, 8 more students get big law at Minnesota versus Wisconsin. That hardly sounds impressive. At Wisconsin, the OP will have an advantage because he can apply to any legal position in Wisconsin or whatever neighboring midwest states bar exam that he wishes to take. This fact is not something to brush off. If he finishes top 20-30% at either school, he's going to be competitive for OCI. Although he has no work experience so that is also a negative factor. All in all, you should work in Wisconsin for a year. Don't they have that big healthcare company in Madison? Epic?

[worldtraveler]

Delay for a year, get residency in one of these states, and retake. You could save yourself decades of loan repayment.