Plan to work in NYC!! Forum

[Rlabo]

I can deff let u no if u'd like but it wouldn't really matter either way cuz of confirmation bias so if I fuck up in law school you guys get to say I told u so and if I do well and get big law I'llmost likely be written off as an unlikely fluke who got lucky and still should have retaken cause i couldve done EVEN better at a higher ranked school.

The way you are approaching this entire thread is insufferable. If you managed to make a thread full of well-intentioned people hope for you to fail, you are going to do just great in law school and the workplace.

Wow, I didn't see people hoping I would fail on here for the majority. Yea sure they think im making a terrible mistake and are gonna push as hard as they can to get me to switch, and I fully respect that, but I would hope that no matter how ludacris my decision may seem to u u still wouldn't wish some1 to fail.

For the record, I don't want you to fail. I just think your age and arrogance is showing in how you post, and nothing anyone says is going to change that in a message board. Stop rebuking every single correct detail in the thread with your opinions, and listen to people with experience. You are not accepted to a significant biglaw feeder school. You applied late. If you want a good shot at biglaw, at the very least you need to reapply in Sept and you should retake. That is the correct response. I was in the same position, I am glad I sat out and retook. I hated the idea, and I defended it too, but its time to start making the smart decision, even if you're set against it. The least you should do is sit out and apply early. I think Cornell would be a good fit, they're a consistent NY biglaw feeder school. None of your other options are.

This thread is certainly not my only form of advice I've seeked out and while this read is clearly polarized towards retake/reapply for the possible gains, most of the other advice I've gotten has been in line with I'm giving up good offers to head back into uncertainty a be at risk at having worse offers than i do now. No one seems to be concerned with that here for some reason as if I'm guaranteed what I have now upon reapplying if not more.

I would love to go to Cornell and will be pushing to get in there.

[Danger Zone]

The above poster has not gone through OCI.

--ImageRemoved--

[Pope Francis]

No one seems to be concerned with that here for some reason as if I'm guaranteed what I have now upon reapplying if not more.

Please explain why you will be any worse off next cycle. There are fewer applicants, you will apply earlier, you can apply ED, you may have work experience, you may have a higher LSAT. I'm listening.

[stuckinthemiddle]

Seeing as you're not going to change your mind (just get off this thread, cool off, and reflect for a while), then from your choices I would definitely take Fordham. Biglaw placement is equivalent to GULC for less cost and it's a NYC feeder school. Just know that unlike GULC, Fordham will probably give you minimal other options if you miss the biglaw boat. Choosing GULC would mean that the difference in cost would be you buying a back-up plan (gov/PI/etc.) if things don't work out. You decide how much that fallback will be worth.

Although I concur with the earlier poster who said absolutely do everything you can to get into Cornell. That's your best shot right now if you don't want to sit out.

[Rlabo]

No one seems to be concerned with that here for some reason as if I'm guaranteed what I have now upon reapplying if not more.

Please explain why you will be any worse off next cycle. There are fewer applicants, you will apply earlier, you can apply ED, you may have work experience, you may have a higher LSAT. I'm listening.

If I score a lower LSAT, if my gpa suffers a point or two due to this last brutal semester, if I've burned bridges with gulc and Fordham, if I can't muster decent ps ds that rivals my original which schools have already seen, idno if I would have to get more Lors but that would be difficult having already secured 5.....

[Rlabo]

Seeing as you're not going to change your mind (just get off this thread, cool off, and reflect for a while), then from your choices I would definitely take Fordham. Biglaw placement is equivalent to GULC for less cost and it's a NYC feeder school. Just know that unlike GULC, Fordham will probably give you minimal other options if you miss the biglaw boat. Choosing GULC would mean that the difference in cost would be you buying a back-up plan (gov/PI/etc.) if things don't work out. You decide how much that fallback will be worth.

Although I concur with the earlier poster who said absolutely do everything you can to get into Cornell. That's your best shot right now if you don't want to sit out.

I'm so down to just get off now and go chill and have a beer, but it doesn't seem like any1 on the thread would join me

[Danger Zone]

Hi, I'm a 0L. Since my personal dream school is Cornell, I would advise you to just get in there and then everything will be gravy. Good luck!

Valid point.

[Rlabo]

Hi, I'm a 0L. Since my personal dream school is Cornell, I would advise you to just get in there and then everything will be gravy. Good luck!

Valid point.

What about duke? I am on pr there so that's a strong possibility if Cornell doesn't come through

[bowser]

Don't convince yourself that you stand to lose something, because that's just being dishonest. No one will care if you score lower, unless you like bomb it and get 150. They ONLY CARE ABOUT THE HIGHEST SCORE. You can choose easy classes and in UG you can just outwork people to boost your GPA, which is not stellar. LoRs and all that jazz play a minimal role. As long as they are actual recommendations you should perform as your numbers indicate.

Like I said man, if you're rich you're rich and it doesn't matter.

[VegasLaw702]

.

[thelawyler]

No one seems to be concerned with that here for some reason as if I'm guaranteed what I have now upon reapplying if not more.

Please explain why you will be any worse off next cycle. There are fewer applicants, you will apply earlier, you can apply ED, you may have work experience, you may have a higher LSAT. I'm listening.

If I score a lower LSAT, if my gpa suffers a point or two due to this last brutal semester, if I've burned bridges with gulc and Fordham, if I can't muster decent ps ds that rivals my original which schools have already seen, idno if I would have to get more Lors but that would be difficult having already secured 5.....

Let's just say I retook/reapplied and I went from reject at Georgetown to 105k scholly; tons of money elsewhere, and got into tons of t14 schools. Reappying doesn't burn any bridges, as all the schools who accepted me earlier accepted me again. And you can just ask for an updated/reworded recommendations - schools truly don't give a shit about those.

Hundreds of people on TLS have done the same thing. In fact, tons of people at my T6 have done the same thing as well (work for a year or two while studying for LSAT to absolutely maximize it). The only thing that will hurt when you sit out and reapply is your ego. Did it hurt my ego? Sure. And some ppl thought I was nuts when I had some good options. But you learn humility, get some more work experience, and become a better balanced/mature person, and more desirable candidate.

And I've talked to about 6-7 of my friends at my T6 about your situation at lunch. Guess what? They all agree with me. Wanna guess how many of us will change our minds once we sit across the desk from you and interview you for a job? Probably very few. But your call man.

On a side note, I'd say the people who are giving you advice in this thread are probably like... 5-7 years older than you on average and have gone through both admissions and recruiting for law jobs. Take heed.

[rad lulz]

,

[M458]

No one seems to be concerned with that here for some reason as if I'm guaranteed what I have now upon reapplying if not more.

Please explain why you will be any worse off next cycle. There are fewer applicants, you will apply earlier, you can apply ED, you may have work experience, you may have a higher LSAT. I'm listening.

If I score a lower LSAT, if my gpa suffers a point or two due to this last brutal semester, if I've burned bridges with gulc and Fordham, if I can't muster decent ps ds that rivals my original which schools have already seen, idno if I would have to get more Lors but that would be difficult having already secured 5.....

-A retake can't hurt you, it can only help you.
-However "brutal" this last semester is, law school will likely be more difficult and you've already expressed a willingness to work hard, no? Why can't you work hard this last semester and *raise* your GPA, thus helping you even more? In undergrad hard work by itself can almost guarantee you a 4.0...in law school, hard work by itself guarantees you very little.
-You're not going to burn bridges with any school. Every single school will see you as a better applicant after having a year of work experience.
-I'm sure you can write another solid Personal Statement, especially after having a year's worth of real-life experiences.
-You don't have to get new LORs (and WTF--why the hell did you get FIVE?!)
-Can you articulate reasons for wanting big law other than the $160k salary and "prestige"? I don't think you really realize what legal jobs (scratch that--ANY jobs) are truly like, and that's why I believe you need experience. There's no substitute for actually working a full-time job, dealing with office politics, handling clients, managing stress, etc. I'm a 0L as well, but every single person I've spoken with in law school, at law firms, and in other positions all have spoken to the value of work experience.

[Gunnar Stahl]

I hope the op goes to Georgetown and strikes out

[nordicsair]

Let's just say I retook/reapplied and I went from reject at Georgetown to 105k scholly; tons of money elsewhere, and got into tons of t14 schools. Reappying doesn't burn any bridges, as all the schools who accepted me earlier accepted me again. And you can just ask for an updated/reworded recommendations - schools truly don't give a shit about those.

Hundreds of people on TLS have done the same thing. In fact, tons of people at my T6 have done the same thing as well (work for a year or two while studying for LSAT to absolutely maximize it). The only thing that will hurt when you sit out and reapply is your ego. Did it hurt my ego? Sure. And some ppl thought I was nuts when I had some good options. But you learn humility, get some more work experience, and become a better balanced/mature person, and more desirable candidate.

And I've talked to about 6-7 of my friends at my T6 about your situation at lunch. Guess what? They all agree with me. Wanna guess how many of us will change our minds once we sit across the desk from you and interview you for a job? Probably very few. But your call man.

On a side note, I'd say the people who are giving you advice in this thread are probably like... 5-7 years older than you on average and have gone through both admissions and recruiting for law jobs. Take heed.

I've just been watching this thread, but it seems like another example might be warranted in this case.

To OP, I also am a resident of NY and wanted to return there after law school. I applied during my senior year, in the middle of the cycle, figuring that I didn't want to fall behind the schedule I had set for myself. I had a 168 and a GPA (~3.45) lower than your GPA, though from a top engineering school. I only got acceptances to T20 schools and was close to attending one of them.

But I decided to take the year off to work and retake the LSAT. I boosted my LSAT to 171, applied early, and got into a T6. That gave me some latitude to screw up an exam or two (which happens). I'll be working at a V10 in NYC.

Few people enjoy retaking the LSAT, but the difference in a few points can be enormous. Take a year off. Get a job. Boost your LSAT. Apply early in the cycle.

[somewhatwayward]

You are ignoring the collective wisdom of a lot of people who have been through this process. I am a 3L at CLS. I have a firm job. I am not bitter (figure I should dispel the typical ad hominems I get when I tell 0Ls what they do not want to hear). Anyway, it is crazy for you to leave points on the table and to rush into law school as a 20-year-old, especially if you are young-looking. It is also crazy because none of these schools give you a good chance at the outcome you want. If you want big law, what you want to see from a school is evidence that big law hires from below median there. The reason you want this is that law school curves generally clump a ton of people within + or - .1 or so of the median. If you see that firms hire below median from a school (as evidenced by the fact that big firm + clerkships = 60+%), you know that if you can at least get yourself within -.1 of the median, you will have a decent shot. That may not sound all that different from aiming for median, but on a lot of curves it may be a difference of 20% (ie, median is top 50% and median -.1 is top 70%). That cushion is crucial bc law school grading and exams can be very arbitrary. Unlike undergrad grades, effort does not equal an A or even a B+.

Georgetown would be a decent school if they chopped the class in half. Right now it is the definition of a diploma mill. At 118K Vandy is better than Georgetown at 195K, but not for NYC. I guess that leaves Fordham and Cardozo. The problem with Fordham is that it exists for essentially one purpose: to give you a 1/3 shot at NYC big law. You can think of it like private equity: a few are successful while most fail, and everyone knows it up front. Cardozo will give you may a 15% chance at big law. I am not sure what the other opportunities are from there although I have met a couple angry recent graduates from there. (One pointed out to me that although Cardozo houses the Innocence Project, the Innocence Project never hires Cardozo grads. This girl went to Cardozo bc of the Innocence Project and did not know that she had no chance of working there.) I guess my conclusion would be retake + and reapply>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Fordham>Georgetown/Vandy>Cardozo.

BTW I can tell you are young because you use 'some1', 'ur', 'gr8' etc. The only person I know who does that is my 13-year-old niece who is very smart but for some reason thinks that all these words must be translated into undecipherable gobbledy-gook. With autocorrect and predictive text, it can be harder to type the abbreviations (if you can even call them that) than regular words, so I guess it is for effect.

[rad lulz]

(One pointed out to me that although Cardozo houses the Innocence Project, the Innocence Project never hires Cardozo grads. This girl went to Cardozo bc of the Innocence Project and did not know that she had no chance of working there.)

Jeez that's ridiculous

[txdude45]

I started reading this thread, left for an open bar, came back at 2am to read some more, and just finished. This has been the gift that keeps on giving.

OP, you refuse to believe this, but your age will work against you. I had 2 T6 schools in hand and being K-JD made me nervous enough to consider a year off. You won't be seen as a whip-smart kid with gumption. You'll be seen as a child, with a years less life experience than the standard K-JD and anyone with WE and similar numbers will destroy you in OCI. This isn't conjecture. I talked to a LS dean, current HYS students, and my UG's career services and all of them said that K-JD was at a disadvantage to WE for BigLaw.

I get that you have absolutely no intention of doing anything to up your odds, but don't get mad at people who have no bone in this other than to improve your eventual position in life. If BigLaw is your goal, as you stated, the schools you're currently considering are bad bets. I'll repeat: for what YOU said YOU want to do, those schools are worse than a coin toss. If you want to leave your dream job up to a coin toss, I'll lend you a quarter and we'll see what happens.

If you can graduate next year: Do it and reapply this fall.
If you can't/won't delay graduation: Work this summer and reapply this fall.
If you can't/won't reapply: Deposit at Fordham and pray Cornell comes through.

[timbs4339]

OP: You'll have to do better than top 1/3 to compensate. You might score in the top 30% and lose out on a job to someone in the top 40% with 1-2 years of WE. But if you are in the top 40% with no WE, you're not getting that boost. If you get top 60%, you're definitely up shit creek. It's not as if the firms just go down the ranking and hire the top 100 students from a 300 person class.

And you seem to think that you'll have some kind of studying/scholastic advantage coming straight from UG. That's a poor assumption. You can't grind your way to good grades. In fact, the people who had a 9-5 job may have a leg up on the K-JDs in terms of study efficiency and habits. I did UG in 3 years with a 3.8, took over 20 credits each semester my last year, and I think that the people working 9-5 jobs were better prepared for the law school environment because they worked much harder on a day to day basis than I did.

Finally, you may think you are mature (although given what you've said ITT I'd dispute that). You may even be more mature than some of the 25 year olds you would go to school with. But biglaw interviewers aren't going to know this in the 20 minute interview you get. They are going to look at your resume, see no work experience, and assume you are less mature than the person they just saw with 3 years of WE, because they don't want to take any risk.

You need to accept this even if it is not intuitive to you right now. In a year or two you'll thank me.

[somewhatwayward]

lol that binary salary distribution. Do you think people who strike out at OCI at Fordham are just able to casually land a 90k gig like nbd or something?

You're almost certain to be stuck grinding at some 45k dump if you miss the boat on big firms. And you'll never escape it either. No in-house exit options, no lateraling into biglaw, none of that. There are 2 very distinct career paths that never cross again, all determined in fall of 2L.

This is just overly bleak, even for TLS. I could make 60K out of college if I chose to do that so while tripping over 90K is definitely not what im saying, "almost certain" 45K is just a refusal to live in any form of reality and theres a very wide pay gap between 45-90. I'm more likely to fail out of law school than grab a position of 45K, ESPECIALLY after passing the Bar. Unless you just truly have absolutely 0 faith in your abilities to network and meet with people.

If you have special connections that will guarantee you a 90K job, then you are in a unique position, but just to clarify for other 0Ls, 90K is an extremely unlikely outcome from Fordham (160K is actually a lot more likely). A bimodal distribution has developed in entry-level legal salaries. More than half of entry-level salaries are less than 65K (and many of those less than 50K) and maybe a quarter are 120K+, with a big spike (14%) at 160K. The rest, maybe 15%, are spread out across 65K-120K with maybe 2% of grads at each 5K-10K interval. Thus, if you miss big law, you are way more likely to end up in the $40,000-$65,000 range than in the $65,000-$120,000 range (plus, there is the below $40,000 range which accounts for a couple percent, increasing the high likelihood of ending up below $65,000).

One other thing to note is that many of the salaries in the $100,000-$120,000 range are big law in secondary and tertiary markets. If we had a salary distribution graph for NYC, I doubt we would see many salaries in the $65,000-$120,000 range. When I massmailed NYC in 2011, I got an offer from what would probably be considered NYC midlaw and it paid $145,000. The thing about midlaw is that it is mostly for experienced attorneys. People go to big law firms for a few years and then lateral into a midlaw firm. The reason is that midlaw firms do not want to shoulder the cost of training complete newbies.

If you are saying that your connections will guarantee you a 90K job, fine, but if those connections are not offering a guaranteed job, you are seriously misinformed if you think the likelihood of you making $45,000 out of Fordham is extremely low. What do you think happens to the 1/3 of the class that gets no job? You think they are making more than $45,000? A few random ones may be in consulting or something but if you land in that unemployed segment, you will be lucky to make $45,000.