Harvard vs Yale Forum

[dixiecupdrinking]

Harvard is not CCN+. It opens up new doors that CCN don't. Academia, unparalleled name recognition, much better shot at prestigious PI work, significantly better for politics, much better for international, much better for fortune 500 corporate, and so on.

"Unparalleled" name recognition and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee.

How many of the 500 or so Harvard graduates from each class do you think get to do things like preftigious public interest work, academia, or "international" work in their careers? 50? How many of the ~1100 CCN graduates every year do? 50? Those doors are not closed to everyone at CCN, nor are they open to everyone at Harvard. The fact is if you're median at Harvard you are probably looking at the same career, all things equal, as someone who is top 1/3 at Columbia, another school some people have heard of. That is what I mean by CCN+. It's somewhat better across the board but it just isn't career-changing the way I think that Yale can be. If you want to do something very competitive and sought after and you go to CCN, you've got a shot if you play your cards right. If you go to Harvard, you've got a better shot. If you go to Yale, I'm not going to say you can write your own ticket, but it's a hell of a lot closer.

ETA: So as not to get too far off OP's particular case, ex ante an 0L has roughly twice as a good a shot at getting a federal clerkship from Yale as from Harvard (as far as anyone can tell without accounting for self-selection etc. etc. etc.). If someone wants to clerk and has the option of going to Yale, they should go to Yale. That's pretty much the end of the story IMO.

[rocktower3]

I'm going to go ahead and go against the grain here a little - I think there are many things for which Yale vs. Harvard is a no-brainer, but for people looking to do corporate/transactional I don't think that's necessarily true (I'm making the same decision). You definitely have AMAZING job prospects coming out of YLS, but I am a little worried that the corporate, and especially transactional offerings just aren't what they are at HLS. Perhaps the individual attention would make up for that to some extent, but I don't think it's something that can be totally discounted. I'm thinking not just in terms of job prospects, but what you actually learn in law school. Thoughts??

[Elston Gunn]

I'm going to go ahead and go against the grain here a little - I think there are many things for which Yale vs. Harvard is a no-brainer, but for people looking to do corporate/transactional I don't think that's necessarily true (I'm making the same decision). You definitely have AMAZING job prospects coming out of YLS, but I am a little worried that the corporate, and especially transactional offerings just aren't what they are at HLS. Perhaps the individual attention would make up for that to some extent, but I don't think it's something that can be totally discounted. I'm thinking not just in terms of job prospects, but what you actually learn in law school. Thoughts??

Unless you want to be a biz orgs professor, anybody will tell you that what you learn in law school is pretty much irrelevant to being a good corporate lawyer because even corporate classes get taught via litigation/cases. Not to mention, if you've ever worked in business, you can go to Yale, literally never attend class, read a few hornbooks, get straight Ps and snag a V10. And if you want to be a biz orgs professor you should still go to Yale.

[rickgrimes69]

Harvard is not CCN+. It opens up new doors that CCN don't. Academia, unparalleled name recognition, much better shot at prestigious PI work, significantly better for politics, much better for international, much better for fortune 500 corporate, and so on.

This is credited.

How many of the 500 or so Harvard graduates from each class do you think get to do things like preftigious public interest work, academia, or "international" work in their careers? 50? How many of the ~1100 CCN graduates every year do? 50? Those doors are not closed to everyone at CCN, nor are they open to everyone at Harvard. The fact is if you're median at Harvard you are probably looking at the same career, all things equal, as someone who is top 1/3 at Columbia, another school some people have heard of.

This is not.

[dixiecupdrinking]

Harvard is not CCN+. It opens up new doors that CCN don't. Academia, unparalleled name recognition, much better shot at prestigious PI work, significantly better for politics, much better for international, much better for fortune 500 corporate, and so on.

This is credited.

How many of the 500 or so Harvard graduates from each class do you think get to do things like preftigious public interest work, academia, or "international" work in their careers? 50? How many of the ~1100 CCN graduates every year do? 50? Those doors are not closed to everyone at CCN, nor are they open to everyone at Harvard. The fact is if you're median at Harvard you are probably looking at the same career, all things equal, as someone who is top 1/3 at Columbia, another school some people have heard of.

This is not.

We'll see if you guys agree when you're graduating and working at a NYC Vault firm along with most of Harvard's class.

[dissonance1848]

The fact is if you're median at Harvard you are probably looking at the same career, all things equal, as someone who is top 1/3 at Columbia

If anything, I would think that the CLS student would do slightly better than the HLS student, actually.

Not to mention, if you've ever worked in business, you can go to Yale, literally never attend class, read a few hornbooks, get straight Ps and snag a V10.

+1 This, so much this.

Go to Yale /thread.

[quiver]

I'm interested in DOJ work after my 1L summer

Yale.

wish to work with a D.C. firm during my 2L summer

Yale.

wish to have a federal clerkship after graduation

YALE.

I am very risk averse

Yale.

Honestly, I don't buy any argument for why anyone ever ought to go to Harvard over Yale, unless they are so unbelievably finicky that they just can't stand to live in New Haven (which is really not that bad), but especially not someone who wants a federal clerkship.

Harvard, to me, is CCN-plus. It's a little harder to get into than those schools and places a little bit better into the most prestigious things. I mean Harvard is great, and for anyone who gets in there and not Yale or Stanford it's usually a no-brainer, but it isn't a categorically better place to be than a lot of other schools. Yale is that much better.

I was going to post exactly this. I'm going to side with dixiecupdrinking here.

[fluffythepenguin]

There are only a few reasons I can think of to go to Harvard instead of Yale (please chime in if you disagree/can think of others).

1. You absolutely detest New Haven and/or love Boston.
2. You have family/a SO in Boston, and don't want to go to school for three years away from them.
3. You really, really don't like Yale's small class sizes.
4. You are interested in working in politics/government someday, and feel you would benefit from Harvard's network and brand name more so than Yale's (Harvard's large class size would also be viewed as a plus here).

Since it doesn't seem like any of these apply to you, I would go to Yale.

[ehall20]

.

[Grazzhoppa]

Yale Yale Yale Yale Yale

[UtilityMonster]

I picked Harvard over Yale for SO. By that, I mean I never applied to Yale. Would have gotten in if I did... Surely...

[wisdom]

My comments:

1) I'm a bit puzzled by the career path you're planning when juxtaposed with your professed interest in corporate work. DOJ is not the best in to top-level corporate firms for a 2L summer (probably something like SEC, if you really want government, or better yet a 1L summer at a big law firm with a corporate practice). Nor is a DC firm during 2L summer; the best corporate firms are all in NYC (Wachtell, S&C, Skadden, Cravath, Davis Polk, Simpson, Cleary). Even the ones who have DC offices have relatively small corporate practices, or practices that basically work on NYC deals remotely. The only DC firms that really have great corporate practices, off the top of my head, are Latham, Skadden, and Hogan. Nor does a federal clerkship make all that much sense, other than for the prestige value (admittedly something that a firm like Wachtell cares about to some extent, but plenty of HYS students go there without clerking).

2) Aside from the desire for government, why the attachment to DC? Is it for personal reasons, e.g., spouse or significant other who works there? And, if it is, why so insistent on clerking? You'll be going long distance for three years in law school, and then the reality is you'll have relatively little ability to control where you land a clerkship, and the more narrowly you apply (e.g., DC only), the higher the likelihood of striking out. D.C. Cir. clerkships are by far the hardest to get (and since Obama isn't getting any appointments through or even nominating as many as he could, it's the hardest it's been in a long while), and D.D.C. is no cakewalk either.

Those are comments unrelated to your school choice, however. There, the answer is quite simple. Go to Yale. If you want to work at Wachtell, it's easier to get there from YLS. If you want DC firms, which are more selective, it's easier from YLS. If you want federal clerkships, it's easier from YLS, even without close professor relationships (not that those will be easier to develop at HLS).

Hi, everyone. I'm currently struggling with this decision and wanted to ask for your input.

I'm interested in DOJ work after my 1L summer, wish to work with a D.C. firm during my 2L summer, and wish to have a federal clerkship after graduation.

I am very risk averse and do not want to strike out. That being said, I want to continue doing firm work after my clerkship and then perhaps transition to the government.

HLS downside: Huge, easy to get lost in the shuffle. I'll have to work really hard to get noticed before I can get professor recommendations. Conversation with OCS seemed like D.C. was a tough market to crack -- they told me I should network and rely on my ties. Also, Harvard Law Review is tougher to get than Yale Law Journal is.

YLS downside: New Haven -- haven't visited, but haven't heard good things. I'm K-JD from a state school (finance major), and I'm scared that there will be so many people that are much better at law, speaking with professors, getting ahead than I am. Also, I don't fit the typical YLS student mold. I'm interested in corporate work and intend to thrive off it if I can find a practice area that truly engages me.

Let me know what you think. I like COAP -- it's more generous (inherently) and has better provisions for children and child care. COAP and LIPP can be somewhat similar in how they treat spouses, depending on individual circumstances. (Yes, I have looked into these things on the behalf of Mr. Edamame aka my boyfriend).

Excited to hear your thoughts!

[dawyzest1]

FYI: The OP chose Yale over the weekend.

[edamame]

Former Yalie here. My comments:

1) I'm a bit puzzled by the career path you're planning when juxtaposed with your professed interest in corporate work. DOJ is not the best in to top-level corporate firms for a 2L summer (probably something like SEC, if you really want government, or better yet a 1L summer at a big law firm with a corporate practice). Nor is a DC firm during 2L summer; the best corporate firms are all in NYC (Wachtell, S&C, Skadden, Cravath, Davis Polk, Simpson, Cleary). Even the ones who have DC offices have relatively small corporate practices, or practices that basically work on NYC deals remotely. The only DC firms that really have great corporate practices, off the top of my head, are Latham, Skadden, and Hogan. Nor does a federal clerkship make all that much sense, other than for the prestige value (admittedly something that a firm like Wachtell cares about to some extent, but plenty of YLS students go there without clerking).

2) Aside from the desire for government, why the attachment to DC? Is it for personal reasons, e.g., spouse or significant other who works there? And, if it is, why so insistent on clerking? You'll be going long distance for three years in law school, and then the reality is you'll have relatively little ability to control where you land a clerkship, and the more narrowly you apply (e.g., DC only), the higher the likelihood of striking out. D.C. Cir. clerkships are by far the hardest to get (and since Obama isn't getting any appointments through or even nominating as many as he could, it's the hardest it's been in a long while), and D.D.C. is no cakewalk either.

Those are comments unrelated to your school choice, however. There, the answer is quite simple. Go to Yale. If you want to work at Wachtell, it's easier to get there from YLS (there are usually more interviews than there are bids at FIP, and they will take you as long as your academic record is decent and you express a genuine interest for, and knowledge about, corporate work). If you want DC firms, which are more selective, it's easier from YLS. If you want federal clerkships, it's easier from YLS, even without close professor relationships (not that those will be easier to develop at HLS). I didn't have any, nor do most people who land clerkships.

Hi, everyone. I'm currently struggling with this decision and wanted to ask for your input.

I'm interested in DOJ work after my 1L summer, wish to work with a D.C. firm during my 2L summer, and wish to have a federal clerkship after graduation.

I am very risk averse and do not want to strike out. That being said, I want to continue doing firm work after my clerkship and then perhaps transition to the government.

HLS downside: Huge, easy to get lost in the shuffle. I'll have to work really hard to get noticed before I can get professor recommendations. Conversation with OCS seemed like D.C. was a tough market to crack -- they told me I should network and rely on my ties. Also, Harvard Law Review is tougher to get than Yale Law Journal is.

YLS downside: New Haven -- haven't visited, but haven't heard good things. I'm K-JD from a state school (finance major), and I'm scared that there will be so many people that are much better at law, speaking with professors, getting ahead than I am. Also, I don't fit the typical YLS student mold. I'm interested in corporate work and intend to thrive off it if I can find a practice area that truly engages me.

Let me know what you think. I like COAP -- it's more generous (inherently) and has better provisions for children and child care. COAP and LIPP can be somewhat similar in how they treat spouses, depending on individual circumstances. (Yes, I have looked into these things on the behalf of Mr. Edamame aka my boyfriend).

Excited to hear your thoughts!

Sorry. 0L stupidity in one line (edited in OP) -- I meant litigation work. Most D.C. firms specialize in litigation / regulatory work. Transactional (corporate) work is a possibility, but it's far off because I know what that lifestyle entails.

Clerking would help if I choose to go down the DOJ route (DOJ Honors program) or if I want to work in litigation / regulatory law. I wouldn't mind any East Coast circuit (fourth, third, second [very difficult to get], or first). I would also be open to D.D.C.

The attachment to D.C. stems from a variety of factors: government work, interest in regulatory matters / litigation, significant other, significant ties (I went to college in the D.C. area and have family there).

I did choose YLS over the weekend. If I wanted a litigation boutique, YLS would win. If I wanted to clerk, YLS would win. Government, then YLS. Transactional work, then YLS. It just seemed to guarantee good outcomes (hopefully!) but a decent lifestyle.

[mono172000]

Not in law school so I won't comment on the YLS/HLS distinctions, but I did spend 4 of the best years of my life in New Haven as an undergrad so I feel responsible for coming to the city's defense. It's an amazing place. I currently live in one of TLS's more popular cities (NY, DC, SF) and can't really say I'm enjoying it more than I did New Haven. Granted, going to undergrad there colors my perceptions somewhat, but I do think I'm a rational enough person to speak to the city's pros and cons objectively. Despite what you may think, New Haven does have a vibrant, albeit small downtown with many rich and accessible cultural opportunities, fun bars/nightlife, and possibly the highest concentration of amazing food I've seen out of any American city. Let me stress that again: the food there is phenomenal. Pizza, burgers, Thai, Latin cuisine...you name they have it and have done it well. Can't be applauded enough.

The city obviously has a bad reputation due to crime and income inequality. But I lived there for 4 years and never once came close to feeling unsafe. I was never mugged, never robbed, never heckled, or made to feel uncomfortable. Furthermore, with the exception of maybe one or two people, I can't name anyone I know personally who had that experience. Sure, you have your panhandlers and homeless people, but most real cities do. It's a shame to say, but after 4 years most people know the panhandlers on a first name basis and feel very comfortable talking with them when they seem them on the streets. I don't mean to diminish the very real problems the city has with crime, homelessness, and poverty...I just want to express that this isn't the Mos Eisley of T14 cities. Most people that go to school here never once experience crime personally.

I think there's also something to be said for how tangible and accessible New Haven is. The very intimate relationship between Yale and New have cannot be overstated. Yale moves an inch and it sends ripple effects throughout the city. This creates a real sense of civic responsibility and local pride in the student body that I don't think exists at every university. As a student you have a powerful ability to impact the way the city is shaped and run. Yale is both the city's number one employer and away the city's largest property owner. It influences the lives of nearly 125,000 residents with almost every decision it makes. Yale students and graduates sit on the city's board of aldermen. They run the ward council meetings. They teach in the city's schools. They write for the local news papers and lead the city's civic organizations. If you feel so compelled, you can be a very real member of a vibrant community in New Haven. Being able to make a home out of the larger community where you go to school is an underrated and under discussed benefit that Yale has.

I know this was a little scattery, but I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about the cit if that's still a sticking point for you.

[mono172000]

whoops, just noticed the OP's decision after I posted. Awesome, congrats.

[jrsbaseball5]

Not in law school so I won't comment on the YLS/HLS distinctions, but I did spend 4 of the best years of my life in New Haven as an undergrad so I feel responsible for coming to the city's defense. It's an amazing place. I currently live in one of TLS's more popular cities (NY, DC, SF) and can't really say I'm enjoying it more than I did New Haven. Granted, going to undergrad there colors my perceptions somewhat, but I do think I'm a rational enough person to speak to the city's pros and cons objectively. Despite what you may think, New Haven does have a vibrant, albeit small downtown with many rich and accessible cultural opportunities, fun bars/nightlife, and possibly the highest concentration of amazing food I've seen out of any American city. Let me stress that again: the food there is phenomenal. Pizza, burgers, Thai, Latin cuisine...you name they have it and have done it well. Can't be applauded enough.

The city obviously has a bad reputation due to crime and income inequality. But I lived there for 4 years and never once came close to feeling unsafe. I was never mugged, never robbed, never heckled, or made to feel uncomfortable. Furthermore, with the exception of maybe one or two people, I can't name anyone I know personally who had that experience. Sure, you have your panhandlers and homeless people, but most real cities do. It's a shame to say, but after 4 years most people know the panhandlers on a first name basis and feel very comfortable talking with them when they seem them on the streets. I don't mean to diminish the very real problems the city has with crime, homelessness, and poverty...I just want to express that this isn't the Mos Eisley of T14 cities. Most people that go to school here never once experience crime personally.

I think there's also something to be said for how tangible and accessible New Haven is. The very intimate relationship between Yale and New have cannot be overstated. Yale moves an inch and it sends ripple effects throughout the city. This creates a real sense of civic responsibility and local pride in the student body that I don't think exists at every university. As a student you have a powerful ability to impact the way the city is shaped and run. Yale is both the city's number one employer and away the city's largest property owner. It influences the lives of nearly 125,000 residents with almost every decision it makes. Yale students and graduates sit on the city's board of aldermen. They run the ward council meetings. They teach in the city's schools. They write for the local news papers and lead the city's civic organizations. If you feel so compelled, you can be a very real member of a vibrant community in New Haven. Being able to make a home out of the larger community where you go to school is an underrated and under discussed benefit that Yale has.

I know this was a little scattery, but I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about the cit if that's still a sticking point for you.

I appreciate the description of New Haven. Thanks!

[hellohi]

While Yale is usually the correct choice here are some more reasons one might choose HLS

1. Interested in a joint MBA (The difference between HBS and Yale's school of management is way larger than YLS and HLS)
2. Desire to work internationally
3. Desire to do a non-traditional career such as consulting/banking (although law school is usually not the right choice for this I'm sure there are some situations where it makes sense)

[edamame]

While Yale is usually the correct choice here are some more reasons one might choose HLS

1. Interested in a joint MBA (The difference between HBS and Yale's school of management is way larger than YLS and HLS)
2. Desire to work internationally
3. Desire to do a non-traditional career such as consulting/banking (although law school is usually not the right choice for this I'm sure there are some situations where it makes sense)

No to 1. I'm a K-JD.

Two and three could be possibilities, minus banking. But I'm far more interested in JD-required work domestically. I want to be a lawyer.

[hellohi]

While Yale is usually the correct choice here are some more reasons one might choose HLS

1. Interested in a joint MBA (The difference between HBS and Yale's school of management is way larger than YLS and HLS)
2. Desire to work internationally
3. Desire to do a non-traditional career such as consulting/banking (although law school is usually not the right choice for this I'm sure there are some situations where it makes sense)

No to 1. I'm a K-JD.

Two and three could be possibilities, minus banking. But I'm far more interested in JD-required work domestically. I want to be a lawyer.

Enjoy Yale!

[txdude45]

I vote Yale.

Also, not adding to OPs dilemma, but if Harvard reduces that massive class by half it would improve the t14 statistics by 1000%.

Do you think Harvard would be the clear #2 with 250 students per class and the added selectivity/medin bump that comes with it?

[Myself]

.

[Elston Gunn]

I vote Yale.

Also, not adding to OPs dilemma, but if Harvard reduces that massive class by half it would improve the t14 statistics by 1000%.

Do you think Harvard would be the clear #2 with 250 students per class and the added selectivity/medin bump that comes with it?

It would probably compete for #1. But who cares?