Stanford vs. NYU $ vs. Columbia $ Forum

[clouded.memory]

Hi all! My cycle is almost at a close now (just waiting on one more decision) and I’ve had a really great run so far. I think I’m now at the point where I should really sit down and start coming to a decision about what school I’ll be attending in the fall. However, I’m having a really hard time making a decision, and unfortunately, deposit deadlines are looming. I would really love it if I could have some input on my choices from the TLS community, as you guys have been so helpful throughout this entire process – I don’t know what I would’ve done without TLS! I’d greatly appreciate any opinions you have. Below are my options:

Stanford: $15,000 fellowship (one-year)
Pros:

• Closer to family/home.

• Around where I want to practice/live (i.e., West Coast).

• I’m thinking about pursuing a MA or PhD in Education Policy, and Stanford has one of the best education graduate programs in the country (if I can get into it, that is).

Cons:

• More DEBT.

• Have not attended ASW (will do so tomorrow), so I don’t have an opinion on the actual campus and feel of it, just yet.

• I really hate the heat, but I guess I could adjust.

NYU: $62,500-75,000 scholarship
Pros:

• Significant scholly $.

• New York City! And it’s located in the Village, where all the fun stuff seems to be!

• Awesome people – I really fell in love with everyone that I met at NYU, and I could definitely see myself having fun and enjoying my time with such an amazing group of individuals.

Cons:

• I just attended ASW last week, and as soon as I stepped off of the subway in the Village, I could tell that I would hate living there/going to school there. I have major social anxiety, and there were just WAY too many people around for my taste. Also, I found myself having a really hard time adjusting to the layout of that part of the city. After two days, I still couldn’t find my way to the law buildings by myself.

Columbia: $65,000 scholarship
Pros:

• Significant scholly $.

• Also in New York City!

• Attended ASW and loved the campus, the building, and the programs!

• Columbia’s education graduate program is also very good, right after Stanford’s.

Cons:

• The people didn’t seem AS chill, but then again, I’m kind of introverted, so I don’t know if that would be as much of an issue for me.

• It seems like all of the fun stuff is located in the Village.

GOALS FOR THE FUTURE: clerkship, gov’t work (very broad goal – something civil rights oriented), MAYBE big-law…

I should also note that I received a $90,000 scholarship from Duke, and a $105,000 scholarship from USC, but I’m not sure if they are really on the table at this time. If you think they should be, please let me know.

Right now, I’m leaning toward Stanford (and I should have a more informed opinion after this weekend’s ASW), but I really don’t want to make a bad decision, here. Any help would most definitely be appreciated. Thank you!

Also, for reference: http://www.lawschoolnumbers.com/cloudedmemory

[bernaldiaz]

This poll is going to be like 100% Stanford. Go to Stanford.

[pastapplicant]

If you are very committed to clerking, Stanford. If you are not sure and want to fall back on biglaw, Columbia. NYU is out of consideration. For full disclosure, I go to NYU.

[Big Dog]

I really hate the heat, but I guess I could adjust.

Yeah, the Bay Area is just scorching. hahahahahaha

[062914123]

.

[clouded.memory]

I really hate the heat, but I guess I could adjust.

Yeah, the Bay Area is just scorching. hahahahahaha

Haha, well, for me, anything over 60 is terrible. Isn't that the baseline temperature down there?

Thanks for the answers so far, pasta and bernaldiaz! They really are helpful!

[clouded.memory]

This is TLS, the answer will be Stanford.

I really hate the heat, but I guess I could adjust.

Yeah, the Bay Area is just scorching. hahahahahaha

NYC in the summer is one million times worse than any weather in California, ever.

Ah, I forgot about that. Good point. Thank you!

[062914123]

.

[clouded.memory]

just in case you're serious about this, weather should be, like, a nonfactor.

It's definitely a factor for me, but not a huge make-it-or-break it one. Just something I am considering.

[sinfiery]

enjoy Stanford

[quiver]

Yeah I say Stanford. It gives you the best chance at clerkships and top-shelf gov and you can take advantage of their awesome LRAP. CLS and NYU with $$ are also great options though. This may come down to how badly you want clerkships+gov.

[dawyzest1]

It's Stanford all the way here and not just in the prestige chasing sense. The whole set-up there seems right for you. I was struck by your comment about social anxiety. I don't advise NYC for anyone (regardless of any differences between the Village and Morningside Heights) if being around large groups of people ALL the time will upset you.

Stanford is spacious, relaxed, and aside from its notoriously scorching summers that rival Phoenix (couldn't resist), seems like the ideal place to go to law school. What else could you want?

[Ti Malice]

This shouldn't even be a question. Go to SLS. If they gave you a $15K need-based grant this year, you'll get similar amounts in future years as long as you and your parents' financial situation doesn't change much. But even if they weren't giving you a dime, it would still be the obvious choice here.

[clouded.memory]

Thanks, everyone. I do really, really want clerkships+gov't, and from what you all are saying, it looks like going to Stanford would be the best route for acquiring that - despite the cost. I've just become so debt averse since joining TLS and reading everyone's stories, but I guess that a difference of around $20k won't make that much difference in the long run. However, I may try to see if Stanford would be willing to give me a little bit more aid (that is, if they even negotiate at all...).

It's Stanford all the way here and not just in the prestige chasing sense. The whole set-up there seems right for you. I was struck by your comment about social anxiety. I don't advise NYC for anyone (regardless of any differences between the Village and Morningside Heights) if being around large groups of people ALL the time will upset you.

Stanford is spacious, relaxed, and aside from its notoriously scorching summers that rival Phoenix (couldn't resist), seems like the ideal place to go to law school. What else could you want?

Thanks for this, dawyzest1. I had some other people to lean on while I was in NYC, but I'm not sure that I would be able to handle it all by myself. Haha, yeah, not looking forward to the summers, but spacious and relaxed is exactly what I'm craving at this point in my life.

[dawyzest1]

Well if the weather is too unbearable in Palo Alto during the summer, just wander up to San Fran. It is guaranteed to be significantly chillier. Remember what Twain said, "the coldest winter I ever spent..."

[PRgradBYU]

Stanford, man. Let me know how ASW goes, as I am unable to attend!

[banjo]

Surprised to see even 9 votes for CLS. I mean it's not a terrible choice, but if you want to practice in CA, and feel anxiety at the crowds/layout of Manhattan (though MH is nowhere near as bad GV), Stanford is an easy pick.

[bob loblaw11]

• I really hate the heat, but I guess I could adjust.

New York City has basically two temperatures: bitterly cold or so hot that you nearly melt waiting for the subway. "Spring" and "Fall" are just elaborate plots by rental companies and last for a combined three weeks.

Add this to your goals and I think Stanford. Congrats on your amazing choices!

[Tekrul]

I'd just like to add my 0.02 into this discussion with respect to your MAYBE goal of biglaw.

Earlier it was mentioned that NYU should not be in consideration against Columbia for biglaw. Do yourself a favor and check out these two links from the school's website.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... nformation

At the breakdown of the 2012 class:

CLS - 69% went the firm route with 80% making it into 501+ size firms
NYU - 64% went the firm route with 78% making it into 501+ size firms


Also note, I am not some schmuck looking up numbers and taking them for granted. I am extremely close with the OCS at CLS, a handful of partners at V100's, and the hiring manager at an NLJ 250. I'm friendly with a great deal more people than that, but these are people I can call up and get a solid 1-2 hours with on any given day of the week. In fact, I just had one such meeting yesterday on this very topic. He said, as they have ALL said that NYU and CLS does remarkably the same in biglaw in NYC. Perhaps they reach 'deeper' into the class at CLS, but that translates into literally (yes, literally) 1-20 extra hires.

I voted that you go to Stanford, but as the choice is your own, you may find yourself looking at NYU v CLS. I urge you not to take CLS over NYU without deliberation because USN ranks it 1 higher. You have to visit both schools and make a fully informed decision of your own.

However, if biglaw remains only a side goal and your true life goals lay in clerk/gov't, Stanford is the clear choice.

[052220151]

I'd just like to add my 0.02 into this discussion with respect to your MAYBE goal of biglaw.

Earlier it was mentioned that NYU should not be in consideration against Columbia for biglaw. Do yourself a favor and check out these two links from the school's website.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... nformation

At the breakdown of the 2012 class:

CLS - 69% went the firm route with 80% making it into 501+ size firms
NYU - 64% went the firm route with 78% making it into 501+ size firms


Also note, I am not some schmuck looking up numbers and taking them for granted. I am extremely close with the OCS at CLS, a handful of partners at V100's, and the hiring manager at an NLJ 250. I'm friendly with a great deal more people than that, but these are people I can call up and get a solid 1-2 hours with on any given day of the week. In fact, I just had one such meeting yesterday on this very topic. He said, as they have ALL said that NYU and CLS does remarkably the same in biglaw in NYC. Perhaps they reach 'deeper' into the class at CLS, but that translates into literally (yes, literally) 1-20 extra hires.

I voted that you go to Stanford, but as the choice is your own, you may find yourself looking at NYU v CLS. I urge you not to take CLS over NYU without deliberation because USN ranks it 1 higher. You have to visit both schools and make a fully informed decision of your own.

However, if biglaw remains only a side goal and your true life goals lay in clerk/gov't, Stanford is the clear choice.

Funny, according to LST, Columbia has a large firm score of 65, and NYU has 60. Also, quit name dropping. Who you know doesn't translate to you having authority on jack shit.


OP, go to Stanford. You'll get a great job and get to spend three years with great weather and good lookin' girls.

[clouded.memory]

Stanford, man. Let me know how ASW goes, as I am unable to attend!

I will definitely let you know! Just landed in San Fran.

OP, go to Stanford. You'll get a great job and get to spend three years with great weather and good lookin' girls.

Haha, I'm a straight female, so I don't know if the good-lookin' girls will do much for me, but the mostly decent weather and great job sound good to me.

Thanks to everyone who has answered so far- I definitely hadn't taken some of these points into consideration before, so this has been extremely helpful.

[052220151]

Stanford, man. Let me know how ASW goes, as I am unable to attend!

I will definitely let you know! Just landed in San Fran.

OP, go to Stanford. You'll get a great job and get to spend three years with great weather and good lookin' girls.

Haha, I'm a straight female, so I don't know if the good-lookin' girls will do much for me, but the mostly decent weather and great job sound good to me.

Thanks to everyone who has answered so far- I definitely hadn't taken some of these points into consideration before, so this has been extremely helpful.

Don't worry, there are lots of good looking/alpha/business bros down there too.

[Tekrul]

Didn't mean to name drop and I didn't claim to be an "authority". My words were pretty direct paraphrases from these individuals, and I assure you, they know a little more than jack shit.

I wanted my post to be more than he said she said. A post further above mine said don't even consider NYU for biglaw next to Columbia. And OP thanked that individual for the tip and called it "really helpful".

I wanted to thoroughly weaken that original claim and help OP make a more informed decision, especially as it appears that OP has taken that advice to heart. The difference in placement for NYU and CLS at biglaw in NYC is insignificant. Period. NYU had more graduates than CLS make partner in 2012 at NLJ 250, but that statistic doesn't mean anything. The schools are the same.

As for your figures from LST, there seems to be a pretty systematic decrease of 4-5% from both schools. Perhaps the data collecting of the school's own employment data vs. LST's differs and some things are not being reported correctly or categories seen as the same. Who's more correct is unknowable. In any case, that 5% difference is 25 students.

We're here to help man, you don't need to attack me when that is my pursuit, and if you'd seen the earlier post, you'd see that the issue needed a credible argument against.

[052220151]

Didn't mean to name drop and I didn't claim to be an "authority". My words were pretty direct paraphrases from these individuals, and I assure you, they know a little more than jack shit.

I wanted my post to be more than he said she said. A post further above mine said don't even consider NYU for biglaw next to Columbia. And OP thanked that individual for the tip and called it "really helpful".

I wanted to thoroughly weaken that original claim and help OP make a more informed decision, especially as it appears that OP has taken that advice to heart. The difference in placement for NYU and CLS at biglaw in NYC is insignificant. Period. NYU had more graduates than CLS make partner in 2012 at NLJ 250, but that statistic doesn't mean anything. The schools are the same.

As for your figures from LST, there seems to be a pretty systematic decrease of 4-5% from both schools. Perhaps the data collecting of the school's own employment data vs. LST's differs and some things are not being reported correctly or categories seen as the same. Who's more correct is unknowable. In any case, that 5% difference is 25 students.

We're here to help man, you don't need to attack me when that is my pursuit, and if you'd seen the earlier post, you'd see that the issue needed a credible argument against.

I agree. You were coming off as a NYU fanboy, and throwing in questionable statistics. Sorry if I came off as aggressive.

[banjo]

The 69% figure for CLS is the percentage of employed graduates working at law firms. LST's 64.2% figure, which they acquire from the official data reported to the ABA, is the percentage of graduates working at firms of 101 employees or higher. You also have to factor in federal clerkships, since nearly all of those students could have gotten big law (or have a big law offer already). See: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=206368

For C/O 2012:
Columbia: 64.2(+2.8 ) + 7.9(-.2) = 72.1% (+2.6)
NYU: 59.5(+16.4) + 5.6(-5.3) = 65.1% (+11.1)

For C/O 2011:
Columbia: 61% biglaw (-8%), 8% clerkship (-2%) = 69% (-10%)
NYU: 43% biglaw (-14%), 11% clerkship (+1%) = 54% (-13%)

For C/O 2010:
Columbia: 69% biglaw + 10% clerkship = 79%
NYU: 57% biglaw + 10% clerkship = 67%

So on average, CLS places 11% more into big law or federal clerkships than NYU.