Georgetown/Boalt/UCLA/Duke Forum

[basebalscribe]

Hey all,

I have wandered the forums for a while and now that I have some decisions to make, I wanted to reach out for help to see if anyone with any specific knowledge (former/current students, etc) could help me out. I've been accepted to Georgetown/Boalt/Duke/UCLA and I'm trying to pick between these schools.

Background:
Senior in college currently, going straight through. Extensive research experience. Otherwise strong softs, especially for an undergrad. 3.92 GPA. 167 LSAT. To study for the LSAT I took a summer course, studied intensively for 10 weeks, and wound up with a 167 (was testing 159 when I started and 169 before test day). I don't want to take a year off to try the cycle again because: (a) if I land a job I will face payment towards debt and (b) deferred potential earnings. Eventually I would like to practice in California after spending some amount of time on the East Coast (either NY/DC/Boston). Interested specifically in appellate litigation, either for the government right out of school or a medium to large firm. I have about 60k in undergrad debt and come from a low-income background.

Options (order of my current preference):

#1 Georgetown
Scholarship Offered: Unknown (but probably slim)
Pro:
Located in DC, which is a city I would love to live in for at least some part of my life. Strong social and professional network here (I've already been informally offered a summer 1L internship).
Seems like the top part of the class has a decent chance at placement into a solid firm in DC. Would love to work in DC after graduate form a firm of the government.
Great clinic programs, especially for appellate advocacy.

Con:
I've looked at placement stats and they seem pretty good, but not great compared to my other options.
Large class.

#2 Boalt (Berkeley)
Scholarship Offered: $0
Pro:
Highest ranked school of my options
Good placement
Con:
Keeps me in California, which is a mixed pro/con. Also proximity to my undergrad institution and my top choice (Stanford Law School) could be disheartening.
I think Berkeley is declining in value, given budget cuts in the state
I looked into events at their admit weekend and most of the focus seems to be in substantive areas of law that don't particularly interest me (especially IP/International Law).

#3 Duke Law
Scholarship Offered: Unknown (probably slim)
Pro:
Very good clerk placement statistics
Seems like a small campus with good resources for students
Strong alumn/placement network
Con:
Not geographically in a place I want to live, at all. That's really the only con I can think of. Although the campus is really beautiful, I won't know anyone in the area (I will have strong social/professional networks in DC and California) and this option could cost me my girlfriend, who I've dated for three years.

#4 UCLA
Scholarship Offered: $20,000 a year
Pro:
Saves me a lot of money ($60,000 in principal) given potential debt load
They seem to have a decent Supreme Court clinical program
Con:
Remain in California
I don't think their reputation lends itself to strong clerk/firm opportunities on the East Coast

[Bronck]

IMO, none of the above at those costs.

Sticker at GULC is financial suicide. And, $60k for UCLA will still place you $180k+ in debt, which is also financial suicide. Moreover, it won't get you to the east coast. Sticker is more justifiable from Boalt or Duke, but I would not dish out $270k+ for those schools either.

I would strongly suggest retaking. Your GPA is stellar and hitting 170+ could give you some nice scholarships w/in the T14.

[born4law]

A 3.92 from Stanford? Assuming at least a moderately rigorous course load, that's impressive.

This is easy: retake.

10 weeks of intense studying may have felt like a lot. But what about another 10? Is that too much? But let me ask you: how do you feel about a 175? Does that sound like something you might be interested in?

It could well be within your grasp if you hit the grindstone again. You went from 159 to 167 on the day-of. That's an 8 point jump. That's not bad, but I'm willing to bet you're capable of perhaps double that. I jumped nearly 20 points from my cold diagnostic to my final LSAT attempt. It took me an extremely long time and too many preptests I care to recall right now, but in the end, it was the best decision.

Push the limits and get what you truly deserve. It'll be the one thing in your life you won't regret. Pushing potential earnings back 1 year is not the problem. You'll do more harm incurring debt by accepting this cycle's offers than waiting and retaking.

[basebalscribe]

A 3.92 from Stanford? Assuming at least a moderately rigorous course load, that's impressive.

Political Science with a mix of Computer Science and some other subjects.

Push the limits and get what you truly deserve. It'll be the one thing in your life you won't regret. Pushing potential earnings back 1 year is not the problem. You'll do more harm incurring debt by accepting this cycle's offers than waiting and retaking.

On improving 10 more points:
That doesn't seem likely, but perhaps it is impossible to predict especially from my perspective. I think it is possible I would reach 170/171, but what would that score really get me? I'm already weighing offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown (my top choices from the beginning). The only reason it makes sense to wait is if I was confident that I would get into HYS. Otherwise, I've taken a year off and retaken the LSAT to just be considering offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown again, albeit with slightly better scholarship money. I don't think getting to a 170 is going to earn me more in scholarship than the opportunity cost of foregoing a year's salary after law school (obviously the key assumption being employment after graduation, but all the schools I'm looking at have decent employment stats). I don't have the confidence that I will improve my LSAT score enough to be get into HYS, and therefore taking this whole process on again seems redundant since I'm already choosing between my top non-big-three options. Do you have thoughts on that?

On the debt:
I completely appreciate that law school debt is an incredible burden, but I will be able to finance law school through loans eligible for flexible repayment (deferring payments, income adjusted repayment, etc) and the loans that qualify for LRAP (which all schools in consideration offer). I've seen this play out with friends and the government is pretty flexible with repayment. Granted the money you have to repay is a lot, but my concern with debt is avoiding default/unlivable income.

[untar614]

A 3.92 from Stanford? Assuming at least a moderately rigorous course load, that's impressive.

Political Science with a mix of Computer Science and some other subjects.

Push the limits and get what you truly deserve. It'll be the one thing in your life you won't regret. Pushing potential earnings back 1 year is not the problem. You'll do more harm incurring debt by accepting this cycle's offers than waiting and retaking.

On improving 10 more points:
That doesn't seem likely, but perhaps it is impossible to predict especially from my perspective. I think it is possible I would reach 170/171, but what would that score really get me? I'm already weighing offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown (my top choices from the beginning). The only reason it makes sense to wait is if I was confident that I would get into HYS. Otherwise, I've taken a year off and retaken the LSAT to just be considering offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown again, albeit with slightly better scholarship money. I don't think getting to a 170 is going to earn me more in scholarship than the opportunity cost of foregoing a year's salary after law school (obviously the key assumption being employment after graduation, but all the schools I'm looking at have decent employment stats). I don't have the confidence that I will improve my LSAT score enough to be get into HYS, and therefore taking this whole process on again seems redundant since I'm already choosing between my top non-big-three options. Do you have thoughts on that?

On the debt:
I completely appreciate that law school debt is an incredible burden, but I will be able to finance law school through loans eligible for flexible repayment (deferring payments, income adjusted repayment, etc) and the loans that qualify for LRAP (which all schools in consideration offer). I've seen this play out with friends and the government is pretty flexible with repayment. Granted the money you have to repay is a lot, but my concern with debt is avoiding default/unlivable income.

A lot. Along with some work experience, you're in very good shape if you do that. 171 puts you in running for Stanford. 172+ gives you a shot at h/y. Plus some solid scholarship money at other T14s.

[BigZuck]

Retake, hit 171+ and enjoy Stanford/life.

This is about as clear cut a retake scenario as there is, to not do so would be incredibly lazy/short-sighted. 171ish and you can go to Duke for free, saving you at least like 180K. Very few firms would pay you that right out of school.

[GMGP]

Appeal. You would be surprised how responsive schools are. I had a couple points higher on the LSAT but a much lower GPA and I appealed for shits and giggles, got an extra 15k at Duke. If you get even 10k a year at Duke or Boalt might be worth it, especially considering the opportunity cost of 1 year missing out on 160k.

Out of these choices for fed clerkships, Duke places the highest percentage although G'town does well too.

[jbagelboy]

Do you intend to marry/stay with your girlfriend? Dont go to Duke if it will cost you your relationship when you have other options, unless your already looking a way out. Its realy not worth that since all the lower T14 will get you similar enough chances.

With high gpa from stanford, retake is the evident choice -- although 3.92/170 wont cut it for mordecai at duke most likely. If you werent retaking, Id say bite the bullet and go to Cal -- (lots of stanford kids end up doing it they just might not broadcast it but theres no shame), since ucla wont get you to NYC and georgetown isnt worth the money

[born4law]

The others have only confirmed what I said initially: retake.

You'll be surprised but the difference between a 167 and even a 169 is HUGE! It's a world of difference. Beyond that level, every additional question is a point. It's crazy, but mere questions will be life-altering. I know... madness. But that's the system and you have a shot at gaming it, so take that shot brotha!

[sinfiery]

Retake

4 points is roughly worth 90000-120,000 PV and roughly upto $180,000 at graduation.
easiest money in the world

RETAKE bro, don't waste that beautiful gpa + preftigous UG






+ your softs + Stanford UG = likely in at HLS

Full rides from Penn, UVA, Mich, Cornell, Northwestern, and Duke all come into play


You can change your fate from possibly (20-30% chance ATLEAST this happens) ruining the next 20-25 years of your life because of debt to graduating a T14 with ~50k debt and killing it.

Seriously, super seriously consider retaking.

I'll leave you with: 1st take I got a 167 and on my retake I got a 176

[basebalscribe]

4 points is roughly worth 90000-120,000 PV and roughly upto $180,000 at graduation.
easiest money in the world

(a) If I take the LSAT again, what score will be reported to law schools? How many times is retaking too many times?

(b) So you (and basically everyone else) seem to think that if I bump up to a 170 (I don't think that's likely) that will open up substantial scholarship from Duke/Georgetown/Berkeley. My worry is that: at least for two of those schools, many people have been surprised by the low scholarships they have received and this was a good application cycle so reapplying jeopardizes a "sure thing" in my admission to these schools.

I don't want to pass up guaranteed admission to a school like Boalt for a hypothetical scholarship that may not eclipse the opportunity cost of postponing a year. Short of the possibility that a 170 (again, not even a guaranteed improvement) could put me into more serious consideration for a school like Stanford I'm still not persuaded. Edit: I'm not trying to be annoying, just genuinely thinking out loud.

[sinfiery]

4 points is roughly worth 90000-120,000 PV and roughly upto $180,000 at graduation.
easiest money in the world

(a) If I take the LSAT again, what score will be reported to law schools? How many times is retaking too many times?

Both. Most schools outside of HYS only consider your highest reported score, HYS probably considers your lower scores at about a 1:50 ratio of your highest score. If I were you, I would try to take it in June if you can get upto speed by then and leave yourself open for an October retake if things don't pan out. If you can't get upto speed by June, October and a December retake if things don't pan out.

(b) So you (and basically everyone else) seem to think that if I bump up to a 170 (I don't think that's likely) that will open up substantial scholarship from Duke/Georgetown/Berkeley. My worry is that: at least for two of those schools, many people have been surprised by the low scholarships they have received and this was a good application cycle so reapplying jeopardizes a "sure thing" in my admission to these schools.

You will be admitted again to these schools even if you don't improve your LSAT at a very high probability. This is a great cycle, statistically, but odds are that next cycle will not be significantly different. You need to understand that sticker at T14 isn't something you should jump at, it is a risky, risky, risky investment that you should absolutely not take if you can improve upon it, which you are in a prime position to do so.

The LSAT is learnable. Use the resources on TLS to study.

I don't want to pass up guaranteed admission to a school like Boalt for a hypothetical scholarship that may not eclipse the opportunity cost of postponing a year. Short of the possibility that a 170 (again, not even a guaranteed improvement) could put me into more serious consideration for a school like Stanford I'm still not persuaded.

Boalt, at sticker, with 2 years of instate tuition, will leave you in $270,000 in debt at graduation along with your UG +interest, at 340k in debt. You have a 50-70% chance at landing a job paying 160k before taxes from UCB, a job with an average lifespan of 3-4 years.
Desirable exit options pay significantly less than this job.


It can be defended to pay this price to go to law school (not easily and probably not possible for a 3.92 grad from Stanford) but not when you've taken the LSAT once and are 3-6 questions away from changing EVERYTHING about your cycle and financial position.

[WokeUpInACar]

Sinfiery is absolutely correct here. Retaking could easily make a difference of hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of your career. With a 3.92 GPA from Stanford and all of your research experience I'm sure you can find a very desirable job for 1-2 years while you study and retake the LSAT. You are undoubtedly capable of 170+, so why limit yourself to paying insane money for good schools when you could almost certainly get in to the very best schools with moderate effort? Plus coming from a low-income background you probably wouldn't have to pay anywhere near sticker at HYS.

[Ti Malice]

A lot. Along with some work experience, you're in very good shape if you do that. 171 puts you in running for Stanford. 172+ gives you a shot at h/y. Plus some solid scholarship money at other T14s.

Every score from 170 on up will give OP a better shot at H than at S. And OP will need a 173 before he/she will have an okay shot at Y.

[Doorkeeper]

Retake and reapply. T7-14 at sticker aren't worth it imo.

[hephaestus]

Retake and reapply. T7-14 at sticker aren't worth it imo.

Exactly. I think they should only be considered at sticker by splitters unlikely to get $$$. OP, reap tons of cash or a better school by retaking.

[WhiskeynCoke]

A 3.92 from Stanford? Assuming at least a moderately rigorous course load, that's impressive.

Political Science with a mix of Computer Science and some other subjects.

Push the limits and get what you truly deserve. It'll be the one thing in your life you won't regret. Pushing potential earnings back 1 year is not the problem. You'll do more harm incurring debt by accepting this cycle's offers than waiting and retaking.

On improving 10 more points:
That doesn't seem likely, but perhaps it is impossible to predict especially from my perspective. I think it is possible I would reach 170/171, but what would that score really get me? I'm already weighing offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown (my top choices from the beginning). The only reason it makes sense to wait is if I was confident that I would get into HYS. Otherwise, I've taken a year off and retaken the LSAT to just be considering offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown again, albeit with slightly better scholarship money. I don't think getting to a 170 is going to earn me more in scholarship than the opportunity cost of foregoing a year's salary after law school (obviously the key assumption being employment after graduation, but all the schools I'm looking at have decent employment stats). I don't have the confidence that I will improve my LSAT score enough to be get into HYS, and therefore taking this whole process on again seems redundant since I'm already choosing between my top non-big-three options. Do you have thoughts on that?

On the debt:
I completely appreciate that law school debt is an incredible burden, but I will be able to finance law school through loans eligible for flexible repayment (deferring payments, income adjusted repayment, etc) and the loans that qualify for LRAP (which all schools in consideration offer). I've seen this play out with friends and the government is pretty flexible with repayment. Granted the money you have to repay is a lot, but my concern with debt is avoiding default/unlivable income.

My comments:
1. You have completely underestimated the INCREDIBLE boost in admissions and scholarship money you will receive by boosting your LSAT by only a few points to 170+. (170+ LSAT, 3.92GPA from Stanford should get you HYS and full scholarship T14 options)
The reason for this is that it bumps you above the LSAT medians for nearly every school in the country. Are you aware of the relationship between medians and US News rank?

2. Saying "I already studied 10 weeks for the LSAT how could I possibly get any better?" is like saying "I already practiced playing the violin for 10 weeks, how could I possibly get any better?" You don't really "study" for the LSAT like you would an undergrad mid-term. It's more like learning to play an instrument than "studying." It's a way of thinking, building habits, rehearsing the performance, making this second nature etc..... You need 6 months. It's WORTH IT.

3. Attending now with your current options is like throwing away a winning lottery ticket. Wouldn't you rather invest a few more months and be attending Stanford or a T14 on a full scholarship next year? The rest of your life is in your hands, don't blow it.

How do I know this?

I scored a 167 on my first attempt after 12 weeks of prep. I decided to retake, since I had been averaging around 171. On my second attempt I scored a 170, but once again decided to retake because my average had jumped to 173 before the test. By my third attempt I felt I had "mastered" the performance of the LSAT, and had completed every single PT. I scored a 179.

My 179/3.47 has given me significantly better options than your 167/3.92. (In at B as well, $90k for Northwestern, $75k from Cornell). You've invested 17 years of your life in education already, what's a few more months? We're talking about your entire future here dude.

[miguelfoogo]

Basebal Scribe.... reality check.....

I'm in a similar position as you. Remember the people who are talking to you are message board fanatics. Take with a grain a salt.

month upon month of lsat studying stops to seem purposeful to me. it is like selling your soul and what you want to be doing with your life directly to us news and world report. embrace who you are and don't try to turn yourself into the test.

go to berkeley. im pretty sure thats where i will end up

[boblawlob]

I have about 60k in undergrad debt and come from a low-income background.

#2 Boalt (Berkeley)
Scholarship Offered: $0

Are you getting need based aid from Cal?


If Cal gave you a significant aid package, I'd take that if I was desperate enough to go to law school asap. But you're still a senior in college. Plenty of time.

You haven't maxed out your potential. Plenty of people go from high 160s to 175+. Sinfiery is one of them.


Retake.

Basebal Scribe.... reality check.....

I'm in a similar position as you. Remember the people who are talking to you are message board fanatics. Take with a grain a salt.

month upon month of lsat studying stops to seem purposeful to me. it is like selling your soul and what you want to be doing with your life directly to us news and world report. embrace who you are and don't try to turn yourself into the test.

go to berkeley. im pretty sure thats where i will end up

I do agree with that sentiment. But another summer of studying and then taking trips to explore the world/working to gain invaluable experience would not result in "selling your soul to USNWR."

[Micdiddy]

Basebal Scribe.... reality check.....

I'm in a similar position as you. Remember the people who are talking to you are message board fanatics. Take with a grain a salt.

month upon month of lsat studying stops to seem purposeful to me. it is like selling your soul and what you want to be doing with your life directly to us news and world report. embrace who you are and don't try to turn yourself into the test.

go to berkeley. im pretty sure thats where i will end up

Wow. That is so insightful. We've all been brainwashed by each other and you have allowed me to see the light.
Or possibly you're giving OP terrible advice and listening to you would be the worst mistake of his life.
OP. Take ALL ADVICE EVER with a grain of salt. Then, do your own research. We have provided statistical evidence showing you how much more $$$ a retake could mean, and if 10 weeks of studying was soul crushing or too much, then imagine your 1L year! Don't limit yourself, don't underestimate the LSAT. Retake and enjoy better options than most of us here will ever get. Embrace your opportunity and retake.

[Golden Bear 11]

How do you, coming from a low-income background,have $60k in undergrad debt when you go Stanford? Isn't Stanford one of the schools that eliminated loans from their financial aid packages?

[Dr. Dre]

retake

[beepboopbeep]

How do you, coming from a low-income background,have $60k in undergrad debt when you go Stanford? Isn't Stanford one of the schools that eliminated loans from their financial aid packages?

Off-topic for OP, but:

I'm not familiar with Stanford's undergrad financial aid policy, but sometimes parents refuse to contribute (or just can't contribute) what the school calculates for them. I was also low-income and I think my mom was expected to pay a few thousand a year. It wasn't necessary in my case, but I can see that accounting for a fair chunk of debt depending on the family situation and the school.

Also, the move to no-loans was pretty recent for a lot of schools. It kicked in after my first year and I graduated in 2011.

On-topic for OP:

Are you kidding me? Don't waste that sparkling GPA.

[jbagelboy]

I will preface by saying that I do not believe every student can score in the 170s.

However: If you got into stanford for UG you probably hit what, 2250+ SAT? (assuming no AA bump). This indicates you are intelligent enough and a strong enough test taker to hit 170+ with solid prep. LSAT is just as aceable as the SAT if not more so for some sections (games). This will make a substantive difference in your life for 15 years. Listen to these people.

My previous post on this thread stands (and don't end your relationship over law school if you care about it bro). Good luck studying!

[84651846190]

A 3.92 from Stanford? Assuming at least a moderately rigorous course load, that's impressive.

Political Science with a mix of Computer Science and some other subjects.

Push the limits and get what you truly deserve. It'll be the one thing in your life you won't regret. Pushing potential earnings back 1 year is not the problem. You'll do more harm incurring debt by accepting this cycle's offers than waiting and retaking.

On improving 10 more points:
That doesn't seem likely, but perhaps it is impossible to predict especially from my perspective. I think it is possible I would reach 170/171, but what would that score really get me? I'm already weighing offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown (my top choices from the beginning). The only reason it makes sense to wait is if I was confident that I would get into HYS. Otherwise, I've taken a year off and retaken the LSAT to just be considering offers from Berkeley/Duke/Georgetown again, albeit with slightly better scholarship money. I don't think getting to a 170 is going to earn me more in scholarship than the opportunity cost of foregoing a year's salary after law school (obviously the key assumption being employment after graduation, but all the schools I'm looking at have decent employment stats). I don't have the confidence that I will improve my LSAT score enough to be get into HYS, and therefore taking this whole process on again seems redundant since I'm already choosing between my top non-big-three options. Do you have thoughts on that?

On the debt:
I completely appreciate that law school debt is an incredible burden, but I will be able to finance law school through loans eligible for flexible repayment (deferring payments, income adjusted repayment, etc) and the loans that qualify for LRAP (which all schools in consideration offer). I've seen this play out with friends and the government is pretty flexible with repayment. Granted the money you have to repay is a lot, but my concern with debt is avoiding default/unlivable income.

Lol... I always love this comment: "I DIDN'T EVEN WANT TO GO TO HYS! IT WASN'T MY FIRST CHOICE!" (said no one (truthfully) ever)