UMKC vs. Washburn Forum

[firsttimelawschooler]

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[hephaestus]

What is the exact COA at each school? How much are the scholarships for?

[firsttimelawschooler]

I'm looking at paying less than 10K a year for either school. Washburn may even be 5K due to grants. Scholarship at UMKC is 17K and Washburn is 8K both renewable.

[somewhatwayward]

I'm looking at paying less than 10K a year for either school. Washburn may even be 5K due to grants.

Is that including cost of living? I'm guessing that'll run about $15K a year in these areas. Washburn for $60K total is okay. You still have a 40% chance of not landing a legal job from either school, but if your debt is low, that might not be the end of the world. In terms of choosing between them, go to whichever is cheaper. They are so similar that it doesn't make sense to draw fine distinctions.

By the way, if you want to work in international law (what specifically do you want to do?) you need to retake and go to a much better school. These schools are extremely local. They don't place into the UN, international human rights orgs, etc....they place into small firms/local gov/direct services PI in Kansas/Missouri. Don't attend these schools if you are not aiming for those jobs.

[firsttimelawschooler]

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[hephaestus]

I'm looking at paying less than 10K a year for either school. Washburn may even be 5K due to grants.

Is that including cost of living? I'm guessing that'll run about $15K a year in these areas. Washburn for $60K total is okay. You still have a 40% chance of not landing a legal job from either school, but if your debt is low, that might not be the end of the world. In terms of choosing between them, go to whichever is cheaper. They are so similar that it doesn't make sense to draw fine distinctions.

By the way, if you want to work in international law (what specifically do you want to do?) you need to retake and go to a much better school. These schools are extremely local. They don't place into the UN, international human rights orgs, etc....they place into small firms/local gov/direct services PI in Kansas/Missouri. Don't attend these schools if you are not aiming for those jobs.

My ultimate goal is to work with a firm or business that does international trade with China. I am studying Mandarin and fully anticipate being fluent by the time I graduate, if not sooner. My fiance is from China (we met in Kunming) and her parents don't speak English, so with them riding me on learning the language, it will almost definitely be sooner.

So you do not think UMKC or Washburn will give me an opportunity for something like this even if I graduate high in my class? I obviously knew that neither school is a sure job waiting for me when I graduate, but I fully intend to put in my fair share of work.

I doubt that either school gives you any shot at this. These sorts of large international transactions are typically handled by larger firms that do not hire many (if any) students from these schools.

[Winston1984]

Also, what are your numbers and how many times have you taken the LSAT?

[firsttimelawschooler]

.

[firsttimelawschooler]

I'm looking at paying less than 10K a year for either school. Washburn may even be 5K due to grants.

Is that including cost of living? I'm guessing that'll run about $15K a year in these areas. Washburn for $60K total is okay. You still have a 40% chance of not landing a legal job from either school, but if your debt is low, that might not be the end of the world. In terms of choosing between them, go to whichever is cheaper. They are so similar that it doesn't make sense to draw fine distinctions.

By the way, if you want to work in international law (what specifically do you want to do?) you need to retake and go to a much better school. These schools are extremely local. They don't place into the UN, international human rights orgs, etc....they place into small firms/local gov/direct services PI in Kansas/Missouri. Don't attend these schools if you are not aiming for those jobs.

My ultimate goal is to work with a firm or business that does international trade with China. I am studying Mandarin and fully anticipate being fluent by the time I graduate, if not sooner. My fiance is from China (we met in Kunming) and her parents don't speak English, so with them riding me on learning the language, it will almost definitely be sooner.

So you do not think UMKC or Washburn will give me an opportunity for something like this even if I graduate high in my class? I obviously knew that neither school is a sure job waiting for me when I graduate, but I fully intend to put in my fair share of work.

I doubt that either school gives you any shot at this. These sorts of large international transactions are typically handled by larger firms that do not hire many (if any) students from these schools.

ABA says that both schools send 10% of graduating students to large firms (100+). There are 3 separate firms in KC that I know of that deal with international law.

[rad lulz]

Ah yes, the Great Plains, a renowned hub of international business activity

[hephaestus]

So OP, you assume you'll be in the top 10%?

[firsttimelawschooler]

Ah yes, the Great Plains, a renowned hub of international business activity

Ah yes, another fine gentleman that lives on his computer getting off on making fun of other people's dreams. Deleting the thread due to zero actual answers to my question.

[Nova]

Ah yes, the Great Plains, a renowned hub of international business activity

Ah yes, another fine gentleman that lives on his computer getting off on making fun of other people's dreams. Deleting the thread due to zero actual answers to my question.

You cant do that...

[rad lulz]

,

[hephaestus]

Ah yes, the Great Plains, a renowned hub of international business activity

Ah yes, another fine gentleman that lives on his computer getting off on making fun of other people's dreams. Deleting the thread due to zero actual answers to my question.

People answered your questions. You just didn't get the answer you wanted.

[firsttimelawschooler]

Ah yes, the Great Plains, a renowned hub of international business activity

Ah yes, another fine gentleman that lives on his computer getting off on making fun of other people's dreams. Deleting the thread due to zero actual answers to my question.

People answered your questions. You just didn't get the answer you wanted.

Actually, the question was UMKC vs. Washburn, which has the edge. Not "please tell me why I shouldn't go to these schools."

[hephaestus]

Yes, but your options implicitly include (1) not going or (2) retaking.
And, again, what is the exact COA after interest and projected tuition increases?

[firsttimelawschooler]

Yes, but your options implicitly include (1) not going or (2) retaking.
And, again, what is the exact COA after interest and projected tuition increases?

Washburn is 9K a year. COL is about 15K according to webpage. UMKC will be about 14K a year. COL would be 17K according to webpage.

[pruufreadr]

Visit.

[fruitoftheloom]

OP - I don't think either UMKC or Washburn has much advantage. Washburn has internship opportunities in Topeka (think state govmt) and UMKC would have internship opportunities in the KC area. Getting a legal job from either of these schools counts as a good outcome - expect to graduate making 40k / year and working in a small firm or government job. You almost certainly will handle personal injury and small criminal defense cases (if you get a job). Finding a job in Kansas City where Mandarin is required is probably a .00001% chance.

FWIW, I don't think there is much difference between Mizzou / KU / Washburn / UMKC. I do think the grads of each school like to tout their own as the best. I know an older Washburn grad who thinks they're a top 25 USNWR school and that graduating there will definitely get me a job in NYC or wherever I want to live. He was bottom 25% (in the 60s/70s) and through luck and hard work managed to get a great job in the 80s. He's still convinced that this is a possibility today.

TLDR: none of these schools is good. Prepare for a job as an adjuster. There is a huge claims center in Olathe that probably has more JD grads than any other business in Kansas.

[timbs4339]

OP: I'm legitimately curious why you think international transactional law with Chinese companies is a possibility from two regional midwestern schools in small metro areas. Doesn't this seem counter-intuitive to you?

[Yukos]

OP: I'm legitimately curious why you think international transactional law with Chinese companies is a possibility from two regional midwestern schools in small metro areas. Doesn't this seem counter-intuitive to you?

Hope he answers before he deletes the thread.

The funny thing, OP, is that you actually have two solid options -- it's just your goals don't match those options at all. If a job dealing with international transactions is your priority, you need to retake and go to the T14 (fortunately your GPA is good enough to get you there if you score in the high-160s). If the priority is minimizing debt and staying in Kansas/Missouri, take whichever of these schools is cheaper.

[NoodleyOne]

Ah yes, the Great Plains, a renowned hub of international business activity

Ah yes, another fine gentleman that lives on his computer getting off on making fun of other people's dreams. Deleting the thread due to zero actual answers to my question.

Fuck your dreams. Dreams are a stupid way to guide your life. That's why they're called dreams. They are not based in reality.

[firsttimelawschooler]

OP: I'm legitimately curious why you think international transactional law with Chinese companies is a possibility from two regional midwestern schools in small metro areas. Doesn't this seem counter-intuitive to you?

Hope he answers before he deletes the thread.

The funny thing, OP, is that you actually have two solid options -- it's just your goals don't match those options at all. If a job dealing with international transactions is your priority, you need to retake and go to the T14 (fortunately your GPA is good enough to get you there if you score in the high-160s). If the priority is minimizing debt and staying in Kansas/Missouri, take whichever of these schools is cheaper.

Here is my personal stance on all of this. Why would I put myself 100's of thousands of dollars in dept (even scoring in the high 160s) to go to a T14 school with, in reality, not much better possibility of actually landing, in this economy, any better of a job. My dad was in the military. I have traveled all over the US and to many other countries. And even when I lived in the small town of Wichita, I saw an insane amount of international presence. 400 Chinese UNDERGRAD students are currently enrolled in WSU. Koch Industry, Bowing, Cesna, etc. are just a few of the companies dealing internationally in a metro area of roughly 300,000 people. I'm not looking to be the next ambassador to China. I just want a job that could use someone who has a knowledge of internation law.

My goal is to graduate with little dept. I have narrowed this down to UMKC and Washburn because they will give that to me. KU gave me less scholarships for a school I don't feel is worth paying more money. Also, I understand score are serious in applying to law school, but a 152 and 3.6 probably should not have got me into KU, Mizzou or Chicago Kent, but they did. These acceptances made me a strong believer in personal statements and experience. I'm not settling, I'm choosing.

With all that said, I just wanted opinions on the two schools, UMKC and WASHBURN. Not a life speech on how I'm making a stupid decision. Maybe we can ask some VU and W&M grads with student loans out the butt how they feel about their decision. I've read enough books to know they wouldn't be positive.

[timbs4339]

OP: I'm legitimately curious why you think international transactional law with Chinese companies is a possibility from two regional midwestern schools in small metro areas. Doesn't this seem counter-intuitive to you?

Hope he answers before he deletes the thread.

The funny thing, OP, is that you actually have two solid options -- it's just your goals don't match those options at all. If a job dealing with international transactions is your priority, you need to retake and go to the T14 (fortunately your GPA is good enough to get you there if you score in the high-160s). If the priority is minimizing debt and staying in Kansas/Missouri, take whichever of these schools is cheaper.

Here is my personal stance on all of this. Why would I put myself 100's of thousands of dollars in dept (even scoring in the high 160s) to go to a T14 school with, in reality, not much better possibility of actually landing, in this economy, any better of a job. My dad was in the military. I have traveled all over the US and to many other countries. And even when I lived in the small town of Wichita, I saw an insane amount of international presence. 400 Chinese UNDERGRAD students are currently enrolled in WSU. Koch Industry, Bowing, Cesna, etc. are just a few of the companies dealing internationally in a metro area of roughly 300,000 people. I'm not looking to be the next ambassador to China. I just want a job that could use someone who has a knowledge of internation law.

My goal is to graduate with little dept. I have narrowed this down to UMKC and Washburn because they will give that to me. KU gave me less scholarships for a school I don't feel is worth paying more money. Also, I understand score are serious in applying to law school, but a 152 and 3.6 probably should not have got me into KU, Mizzou or Chicago Kent, but they did. These acceptances made me a strong believer in personal statements and experience. I'm not settling, I'm choosing.

With all that said, I just wanted opinions on the two schools, UMKC and WASHBURN. Not a life speech on how I'm making a stupid decision. Maybe we can ask some VU and W&M grads with student loans out the butt how they feel about their decision. I've read enough books to know they wouldn't be positive.

I can see why you think that. But you have to understand that it's not only about geography, but about the way entry level legal hiring works. There aren't jobs with Koch Industries or Bowing not because you have no Chinese experience but because those companies do not hire entry-level lawyers right out of law school. They hire from large law firms that do complex transactional work and train the lawyers for them. That's true if you go to Washburn or if you go to one of the many crappy schools on the coasts where graduates can see the skyscrapers where they have no shot at working. And to get one of those training jobs a T14 will, undoubtedly, give you much better prospects.

Now are these schools a bad idea in all circumstances- of course not. But for the very specific, technical area of law you want to do, they are. You might be able to use your language skills and wife's connections to open a small immigration practice for the Chinese immigrants in the area. And your low debt makes living a decent life on a 40K small firm or PD/DA salary much easier. But if all you want to do in law is cross-border Asia transactions, it's just not going to happen, and you should think long and hard about entering this profession if that's all you want to do.