William & Mary vs Cardozo vs Fordham Forum

[pianogirl]

Cost of Attendance
Fordham: $70k
Cardozo: $44k
W & M: $39k
Illinois: $38k

Willing to move anywhere, no ties to any of these markets. Hoping for big law or non PI job. I was lucky to get these schools with a sub 2.7 GPA and a 164 after retakes so I won't be retaking again. Leaning towards W&M for the cost but Fordham has the best big law numbers. Any chance of getting big law from William and Mary? I saw on LST some people got big law and some got NYC/DC from there- any chance those are the big law jobs?

[DoveBodyWash]

If you look at the "Employer by type" tab, you can look at placement by firm size. In general i think most ppl assume that firms with 100 attorneys are more are BigLaw firms.

[LetsGoRangers]

If you want Big Law Fordham is your best bet, then UIUC.

W&M places 1/3 of their class in PI jobs and 13% in Big Law.

What are the stips for the schollies?

[dissonance1848]

Since you have no ties, OP, you basically are stuck with NYC (Chicago and VA have way fewer legal jobs, and even if you go to school locally, are harder to break into)

That leaves you with Cardozo and Fordham.

Given that Fordham recently for 2012 placed roughly 25% of the class biglaw (NLJ250),

and Cardozo was like 8% or so, I think that Fordham for 26k more is the no brainer here.

Do Fordham.

[timbs4339]

These are one year costs?

Don't go anywhere you don't have ties. At Fordham, you're looking at 250K before all is said and done. If you don't get biglaw (which you probably won't) you need to do PI or you're on IBR for the next 20 years.

[pianogirl]

Thanks for the info so far. I took at look at LST and came up with the following:

Fordham
2010 Grads: 164 big law 22 fed clerk Out of 491
2011 Grads: 106 big law 10 fed clerk Out of 428
2012 Grads: 148 big law 14 fed clerk Out of 486

Cardozo
2010 Grads: 71 big law 7 fed clerk Out of 383
2011 Grads: 45 big law 11 fed clerk Out of 380
2012 Grads: 45 big law 3 fed clerk Out of 387

William & Mary
2010 Grads: 35 big law 13 fed clerk Out of 202
2011 Grads: 14 big law 15 fed clerk Out of 196
2012 Grads: 26 big law 12 fed clerk Out of 201

I guess I am hoping that people dont get big law from WM because they are self selecting govt or pi jobs. Unreasonable assumption? Fordham is tempting but at almost double the price of Cardozo, in 10 years that is going to be a hefty difference. Any further suggestions/discussion much appreciated!

[DoveBodyWash]

Where are your ties? i know you said u had none in these markets, but where are you from. You should consider whether any of these schools can get you back to your home market when making your decision

[NoodleyOne]

Very unreasonable assumption. W&M is competing locally with UVA, but also places like GW, UofR, W&L and the like. The Virginia market isn't that big (pretty much a handful of Richmond firms, maybe a few in Hampton Roads), but they're a lot of other people competing for it.

[timbs4339]

I guess I am hoping that people dont get big law from WM because they are self selecting govt or pi jobs. Unreasonable assumption? Fordham is tempting but at almost double the price of Cardozo, in 10 years that is going to be a hefty difference. Any further suggestions/discussion much appreciated!

Yes. At any school that costs 60K/year it is an unreasonable assumption to assume that very many people are selecting out of 160K jobs to get 40K jobs. And government/PI hiring is extremely competitive with all the budget cuts and hiring freezes.

[ArchieHicox]

Cost of Attendance
Fordham: $70k
Cardozo: $44k
W & M: $39k
Illinois: $38k

If you don't mind me asking... how are your COA # so low? I have very similar numbers, and at minimum even with full ride offers my COA # is $40k (without interest). How are you calculating this $38k or $39k # at some really solid schools (like UIUC and W&M)? Do you have savings or are you an URM?

[pianogirl]

Very unreasonable assumption. W&M is competing locally with UVA, but also places like GW, UofR, W&L and the like. The Virginia market isn't that big (pretty much a handful of Richmond firms, maybe a few in Hampton Roads), but they're a lot of other people competing for it.

Do you think the big law winners have a shot at NYC? Or is most biglaw local to VA? Thanks for the insight.

[NoodleyOne]

Very unreasonable assumption. W&M is competing locally with UVA, but also places like GW, UofR, W&L and the like. The Virginia market isn't that big (pretty much a handful of Richmond firms, maybe a few in Hampton Roads), but they're a lot of other people competing for it.

Do you think the big law winners have a shot at NYC? Or is most biglaw local to VA? Thanks for the insight.

0L, and my experience is from talking to a few people...

Chances aren't good. Basically, the numbers speak for themselves.

[pianogirl]

Cost of Attendance
Fordham: $70k
Cardozo: $44k
W & M: $39k
Illinois: $38k

If you don't mind me asking... how are your COA # so low? I have very similar numbers, and at minimum even with full ride offers my COA # is $40k (without interest). How are you calculating this $38k or $39k # at some really solid schools (like UIUC and W&M)? Do you have savings or are you an URM?

= scholarships + savings divided over the 3 years

[LetsGoRangers]

Very unreasonable assumption. W&M is competing locally with UVA, but also places like GW, UofR, W&L and the like. The Virginia market isn't that big (pretty much a handful of Richmond firms, maybe a few in Hampton Roads), but they're a lot of other people competing for it.

Do you think the big law winners have a shot at NYC? Or is most biglaw local to VA? Thanks for the insight.

Do not go to W&M hoping for NYC. If you want NYC go to Fordham or Cardozo.

[pianogirl]

Is Fordham is worth almost twice the cost of Cardozo? Anyone from NYC that can comment on this?

[LetsGoRangers]

Is Fordham is worth almost twice the cost of Cardozo? Anyone from NYC that can comment on this?

If you want Big Law, Fordham placed 20% more grads in in its class in those firms according to LST.

IMO, LST scores for both schools however does not warrant paying 2x the amount though.

[hephaestus]

Cost of Attendance
Fordham: $70k
Cardozo: $44k
W & M: $39k
Illinois: $38k

If you don't mind me asking... how are your COA # so low? I have very similar numbers, and at minimum even with full ride offers my COA # is $40k (without interest). How are you calculating this $38k or $39k # at some really solid schools (like UIUC and W&M)? Do you have savings or are you an URM?

= scholarships + savings divided over the 3 years

That's the cost per year, correct? Not over 3 years?

[AP-375]

W&M > NYC Biglaw is absolutely doable, but tough. Grades + hustle
I think there is a fair amount of self selection into gov/public interest though. A fair number of the top 10% LR kids, who could definitely get Big Law, go for government positions.
Decent options from W&M aren't as unlikely as people make them sound here.
But if you know you only want NYC, just go to Fordham or Cardozo.
Current student. Feel free to PM.

[NoodleyOne]

W&M > NYC Biglaw is absolutely doable, but tough. Grades + hustle
I think there is a fair amount of self selection into gov/public interest though. A fair number of the top 10% LR kids, who could definitely get Big Law, go for government positions.
Decent options from W&M aren't as unlikely as people make them sound here.
But if you know you only want NYC, just go to Fordham or Cardozo.
Current student. Feel free to PM.

...

Ignore this post. Retake.

[DoveBodyWash]

W&M > NYC Biglaw is absolutely doable, but tough. Grades + hustle
I think there is a fair amount of self selection into gov/public interest though. A fair number of the top 10% LR kids, who could definitely get Big Law, go for government positions.
Decent options from W&M aren't as unlikely as people make them sound here.
But if you know you only want NYC, just go to Fordham or Cardozo.
Current student. Feel free to PM.

...

Ignore this post. Retake.

Ehhh i dunno...with a sub 2.7 GPA retaking might not yield better results...especially for NYC feeder schools.

[NoodleyOne]

W&M > NYC Biglaw is absolutely doable, but tough. Grades + hustle
I think there is a fair amount of self selection into gov/public interest though. A fair number of the top 10% LR kids, who could definitely get Big Law, go for government positions.
Decent options from W&M aren't as unlikely as people make them sound here.
But if you know you only want NYC, just go to Fordham or Cardozo.
Current student. Feel free to PM.

...

Ignore this post. Retake.

Ehhh i dunno...with a sub 2.7 GPA retaking might not yield better results...especially for NYC feeder schools.

Ah, missed the 2.7 part.

I amend my advice. Don't go.

[dissonance1848]

I thought the OP's costs were for COA for three years, total?

Fordham for 70k total debt is not awesome, but can be justified as the least worst of the options here.

If what I have stated above is not the case, then OP either needs to get WE, kill the LSAT, and go to NU if they are willing to gamble, or not go at all.

[pianogirl]

I wanted to make clear that the cost is per year. I am leaning toward WM since I'm not very fond of NYC. Although if NYC is my only shot of getting a decent job then I would do it. As for WE, I have 5 years in banking/finance. I know this is a gamble, just wondering which option would be better so that is why less debt (WM) is more tempting over the better job prospects at Fordham.

[Ruxin1]

I wanted to make clear that the cost is per year. I am leaning toward WM since I'm not very fond of NYC. Although if NYC is my only shot of getting a decent job then I would do it. As for WE, I have 5 years in banking/finance. I know this is a gamble, just wondering which option would be better so that is why less debt (WM) is more tempting over the better job prospects at Fordham.

You realize these six figure debts will be ballooning with 7.9% interest the whole time you are in school?

[dissonance1848]

If these are the costs per year, than either retake and kill the LSAT, go to NU for a gamble, or do not go to law school.

If you have 5yr. of WE, even though the GPA isn't great, MBA programs are more holistic than law school admissions, and perhaps you could get into a reasonable one.