Wayne State vs. MSU Forum

[ryanrichter]

I have full tuition scholarships with top half stips at both schools.

I want to work in Michigan after I graduate (specifically Grand Rapids if possible).

I realize I wont get big law from either of these schools. I just want to know which school is the better option for finding any kind of legal job.

I'd live near campus my first year and commute from my parent's house the 2nd and 3rd years at either school, so total COA is probably around 15-20k if I can keep the scholarship.

[Gator_Bait]

I wouldn't go to either unless that stip is lowered or eliminated. A coin-flip chance at losing your scholarship is pretty risky.

[bananapeanutbutter]

I'd do Michigan State, and drop out if you lose the scholarship. It isn't bad to graduate for free from law school, and even if it was free if you can't do top third I'd consider dropping out for time reasons.

[spleenworship]

Wayne State by a fricking 8 Mile.


http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=msu

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wayne

You are looking at a solid 13% difference in employment outcomes.

That said, consider either a retake or dropping out of Wayne State if you lose your scholarship. A 51% chance of employment just isn't that good. In fact, it's bad.

[spleenworship]

I'd do Michigan State, and drop out if you lose the scholarship. It isn't bad to graduate for free from law school, and even if it was free if you can't do top third I'd consider dropping out for time reasons.

You don't know that Wayne State is the better school with better employment prospects, or you wouldn't say this.

[bananapeanutbutter]

You are correct. I never really researched these places.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

You don't have a coins flip chance of losing the money. People with top numbers (aka students on full-rides) almost never finish in the bottom half. Contact the school for percentages, but I doubt more than 15% lose their money with a top half stip.

[Ti Malice]

I'd do Michigan State, and drop out if you lose the scholarship. It isn't bad to graduate for free from law school, and even if it was free if you can't do top third I'd consider dropping out for time reasons.

You don't know that Wayne State is the better school with better employment prospects, or you wouldn't say this.

There's really not enough data to say that WSU has better outcomes. Last year almost 50% more MSU grads than WSU grads reported salary data. Some schools are thought to go to significantly greater lengths to obtain data from their highest-ranked graduates than from their other grads.

[Gator_Bait]

You don't have a coins flip chance of losing the money. People with top numbers (aka students on full-rides) almost never finish in the bottom half. Contact the school for percentages, but I doubt more than 15% lose their money with a top half stip.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

You don't have a coins flip chance of losing the money. People with top numbers (aka students on full-rides) almost never finish in the bottom half. Contact the school for percentages, but I doubt more than 15% lose their money with a top half stip.

Every year we (and all law schools, I would guess) provide the first year grades for our last class to LSAC and their statisticians give us back a report on how well the LSAT and GPA predicted how well those students did. (They use that to continuously improve and refine the value of the LSAT.)

What you would see is a scatterplot with a general relationship, but not perfect. So the person with the best combined stats in the class is virtually never ranked #1 in the class after the first year, but they're also virtually never outside the top 25%, either. On the other side, the person with the weakest LSAT/GPA combo isn't a lock to flunk out, but also almost never gets the grades to be in the top half of the class.

Everyone starts off equal in law school. 170 doesn't get you extra points on your law school exams and doesn't guarantee you will make law review. I've seen people with LSATs in the high 140s make law review, and I've seen people in the mid-160s flunk out. There's no substitute for hard work, which is why I often see very hard working 152-155/3.6-3.9 types eat the lunch of 160-164/3.1-3.3 types in law school. The first group is smart "enough" and has the attitude and work ethic to squeeze every bit of potential out of themselves. The latter group is very smart and gifted, but has usually cruised by on talent without ever being pushed to actually work hard.

Dean Perez

Dean of a law school.

Also just look on the websites of the various schools--- top 50% stip will usually have between 15% and 20% attrition rate.

[spleenworship]

I'd do Michigan State, and drop out if you lose the scholarship. It isn't bad to graduate for free from law school, and even if it was free if you can't do top third I'd consider dropping out for time reasons.

You don't know that Wayne State is the better school with better employment prospects, or you wouldn't say this.

There's really not enough data to say that WSU has better outcomes. Last year almost 50% more MSU grads than WSU grads reported salary data. Some schools are thought to go to significantly greater lengths to obtain data from their highest-ranked graduates than from their other grads.

I wasn't talking about salary data. I'm talking employment data. Look at the LST links. They'll tell you how many people didn't report. Even if the entire 6% "unknown" from MSU got FT/Bar-req jobs, WSU would still be 7.7% better. And we all know they don't all have jobs.

Maybe MSU grads with jobs make better money than WSU grads.... but there are more WSU grads with jobs of any kind, period, than MSU grads with jobs of any kind. I'd rather have a 50% chance to get a job paying $40K a year than a 35% chance of getting a job paying $65K a year. But, you know, whatever floats your boat.


ETA: Over 100 MSU JD grads are still unemployed at 9 months. Only about 40 WSU grads are unemployed at 9 months. That's a difference of 40% funemployment to 25% funemployment. (source: ABA stats).

[PRgradBYU]

For your sake, don't consider either of those schools unless you can get the stips removed (or lowered). They're unreasonably demanding for the high-risk schools you're looking into.

[Gunnar Stahl]

Are you from Grand Rapids? Because you probably won't get a job there from either school if you're not.

[spleenworship]

Are you from Grand Rapids? Because you probably won't get a job there from either school if you're not.

My understanding was that MSU grads could do OK anywhere in MI outside of Detroit which is dominated by WSU.

[bananapeanutbutter]

Get the stips removed if possible, but I don't get what the big deal is.

If you can't pull top half at these places you're not going to get a legal job anyway so it's a waste of living expenses.

[Gunnar Stahl]

Are you from Grand Rapids? Because you probably won't get a job there from either school if you're not.

My understanding was that MSU grads could do OK anywhere in MI outside of Detroit which is dominated by WSU.

IDK, I've heard that GR is pretty insular, more so than Detroit, which is saying a lot. And it's not impossible to get to Detroit from MSU, but it is easier from Wayne.

[jne381]

This is a no brainer. Michigan State is the far better choice. The MSU continues to improve year after year with better faculty, more clinical options, and higher calibre students. Wayne can't even break into the top 100 schools, even with state subsidizing tuition rates for students. It is a tough market out there, but job rate statistics are questionable, especially because MSU has been known for being much more transparent with theirs than most other law schools in the US.

[romothesavior]

This is a no brainer. Michigan State is the far better choice. The MSU continues to improve year after year with better faculty, more clinical options, and higher calibre students. Wayne can't even break into the top 100 schools, even with state subsidizing tuition rates for students. It is a tough market out there, but job rate statistics are questionable, especially because MSU has been known for being much more transparent with theirs than most other law schools in the US.

I don't know enough about these schools to really advice OP, but this is just shitawful advice. You've been on TLS for 7 years and you still buy into crap like this? (i.e., better faculty, clinical options, USNWR rankings, etc.) I know your belly is full of that MSU kool-aid but let's keep it on point here. It's about the jobs dude.

[NanaP]

This is a no brainer. Michigan State is the far better choice. The MSU continues to improve year after year with better faculty, more clinical options, and higher calibre students. Wayne can't even break into the top 100 schools, even with state subsidizing tuition rates for students. It is a tough market out there, but job rate statistics are questionable, especially because MSU has been known for being much more transparent with theirs than most other law schools in the US.

I don't know enough about these schools to really advice OP, but this is just shitawful advice. You've been on TLS for 7 years and you still buy into crap like this? (i.e., better faculty, clinical options, USNWR rankings, etc.) I know your belly is full of that MSU kool-aid but let's keep it on point here. It's about the jobs dude.

I think his point was that the name is better known, so he would probably have a better chance a a job....not sure, but if OP is young he should maybe wait a year and retake....

[jne381]

This is a no brainer. Michigan State is the far better choice. The MSU continues to improve year after year with better faculty, more clinical options, and higher calibre students. Wayne can't even break into the top 100 schools, even with state subsidizing tuition rates for students. It is a tough market out there, but job rate statistics are questionable, especially because MSU has been known for being much more transparent with theirs than most other law schools in the US.

I don't know enough about these schools to really advice OP, but this is just shitawful advice. You've been on TLS for 7 years and you still buy into crap like this? (i.e., better faculty, clinical options, USNWR rankings, etc.) I know your belly is full of that MSU kool-aid but let's keep it on point here. It's about the jobs dude.

Unless the OP wants to practice in Detroit, there is no advantage to going to Wayne, and even that might not be the case anymore. That was just something that used to be said, but I have not seen that to be the case in reality. Quite honestly, it seems the market in West Michigan seems to be populated by tons of Cooley grads. If that is the only info you are looking at, the OP should go to Cooley.

[romothesavior]

Fair enough, that may be the case. I really don't know all the dynamics in Michigan. That's my point though: let's focus on things like placement power and job statistics.

I just like to think TLS can come up with more sophisticated arguments re: choosing a law school than "Come to our school, our professors are nice and its a top 100!" Especially the old time vets.

[hephaestus]

Did you already try to negotiate with the schools for lower stips?

[timbs4339]

Have you tried to negotiate stips?

[jne381]

Fair enough, that may be the case. I really don't know all the dynamics in Michigan. That's my point though: let's focus on things like placement power and job statistics.

I just like to think TLS can come up with more sophisticated arguments re: choosing a law school than "Come to our school, our professors are nice and its a top 100!" Especially the old time vets.

West Michigan is tricky for everyone. Obviously people who go to Michigan, or any great school for that matter can probably get jobs here, but the truth is that they generally don't want to practice here, for the most part. Knowing people and being from here is the next best thing. This is why there are so many Cooley grads. These are people that are from here and decided to commute to law school. Until MSU opened a law school in East Lansing relatively recently, Cooley was the best option for them. Now that MSU is an option, and probably the best option on that front, many more people from this region are going to MSU instead of Cooley, assuming they can get in.

[timbs4339]

Fair enough, that may be the case. I really don't know all the dynamics in Michigan. That's my point though: let's focus on things like placement power and job statistics.

I just like to think TLS can come up with more sophisticated arguments re: choosing a law school than "Come to our school, our professors are nice and its a top 100!" Especially the old time vets.

West Michigan is tricky for everyone. Obviously people who go to Michigan, or any great school for that matter can probably get jobs here, but the truth is that they generally don't want to practice here, for the most part. Knowing people and being from here is the next best thing. This is why there are so many Cooley grads. These are people that are from here and decided to commute to law school. Until MSU opened a law school in East Lansing relatively recently, Cooley was the best option for them. Now that MSU is an option, and probably the best option on that front, many more people from this region are going to MSU instead of Cooley, assuming they can get in.

You may be right, but this is the type of thinking that got us 200+ ABA law schools with more on the way. Some places just don't need a law school (or 2!).