Emory Woodruff Scholarship v. Lower T-14 Forum

[crystalball]

removed.

[hephaestus]

Which lower T14 and what exact amount of merit aid?

[Ti Malice]

Are those T14 scholarships $30K per year or in total? Can you list all of your T14 options with total cost of attendance included? Would you be living on your own in Atlanta? Are there any schools where your app is still under review? If so, which ones?

A couple of things in advance:

(1) Academia is not realistic from any of these schools. If you want academia, you need to go to YHS.
(2) Law students will be similar at all of the places you're considering.

[quiver]

Given this information, do you think that taking the Woodruff or attending a lower t-14 school (10-14) at scholarships ranging from $0-30k is the better decision?

Which lower T14? What are your career goals if not biglaw?

Just some general thoughts:

- I am not certain of what market I want to work in (and am not at all opposed to staying in the Southeast), but would like to keep as many open as possible

- I have ties to Atlanta and like Atlanta but do not know 100% yet that I want to spend the rest of my life there (hence wanting to keep other markets open)

Emory will be more restrictive in terms of location but getting a full tuition scholarship + stipend may balance that out. The real question is whether you think the increase in degree portability from a T14 is worth 200k in debt (+ interest). I personally do not think that's the case since you'd be happy in Atlanta/SE.

- I might be interested in academia

Academia (assuming you mean legal academia) will be nearly impossible from Emory and only marginally less so from a lower T14. I would just put academia out of your mind altogether.

- I want to attend a school where I can learn as much from my peers as my professors, so an intellectual classroom environment is important

There will be almost no difference between Emory and a lower T14 in this regard.

[BigZuck]

Agree on forgetting about academia.

I don't think Emory is a particularly good school (certainly nowhere near a t14) but the fact that you can go for free and have a named scholarship and are ok with working in Atlanta and have ties there means you should take it, no question (unless you have a really solid T14 with scholarship offer). I'd imagine that the school will give you all kinds of preferential treatment because of your scholarship and therefore your job prospects will be at least as good as a kid at median at a T14, just minus the soul crushing debt.

Congrats on the scholarship offer!

[smaug_]

As I said last time posted about this, you need to be careful at looking at Atlanta as backup because its market is a bloodbath. I'm not sure which option is better, but even with no debt, Emory doesn't guarantee a good outcome in Atlanta.

Someone who knows more can feel free to correct me, though.

[ze2151]

if you don't want to work in biglaw then you need the woodruff because the pricetag at any t14 will demand that you attempt to get a big paycheck. even if you can 75 pct scholarship somewhere, you're still looking at a pretty big loan balance.

named fellowships are where it's at if you can get them. from day one, you have a leg up on everyone in the building, and it can never be taken away from you. regardless of how you do on arbitrary exams (and most people in the real world are aware of how arbitrary exams are, even if biglaw still uses them as a sorting mechanism), you will have a line on your resume that separates you from everybody else. no-brainer.

[smaug_]

named fellowships are where it's at if you can get them. from day one, you have a leg up on everyone in the building, and it can never be taken away from you. regardless of how you do on arbitrary exams (and most people in the real world are aware of how arbitrary exams are, even if biglaw still uses them as a sorting mechanism), you will have a line on your resume that separates you from everybody else. no-brainer.

I'm not sure that the line on your resume will meaningfully sort you from everyone else. It looks like you're an Emory student: what are you doing? How was the job hunt there?

[jym_dawg]

So in summary:

You want to keep your options open geographically - Emory locks you into GA - NOT Emory
You might want academia - NOT Emory (likely also not non HYS T14, but better shot from T14)
Do not want BigLaw - Emory (if T14, BigLaw to pay off debt for a few years)
Not sure about staying in Atl - NOT Emory

Since you're from the South, is that lower T14 Duke? If so, I'd try to negotiate up with them but would ultimately take the T14 over Emory for sure. Emory's employment prospects are not that great in state (as others have pointed out, Atl legal market is a bloodbath) but you're basically locked out of non-GA markets.

[Ti Malice]

OP, several people have asked you questions the answers to which would help us in providing you with much more informed takes. How about returning to your thread and answering them?

[crystalball]

removed.

[BigZuck]

If you haven't lived in a place then you don't really have ties there as far as firms are concerned, at least according to this site.

Emory is now not sounding like a very good option, but neither are those other schools. I still think that if you have to choose between these options then the advantages of having a named scholarship should hopefully help you get a job.

[crystalball]

removed.

[TheThriller]

If you haven't lived in a place then you don't really have ties there as far as firms are concerned, at least according to this site.

Emory is my undergraduate alma mater so I have lived there.

withdraw so they can give me the woodruff. Or attend and we can be roommates.

[ze2151]

I'm not sure that the line on your resume will meaningfully sort you from everyone else. It looks like you're an Emory student: what are you doing? How was the job hunt there?

pm'd

[crystalball]

I'm not sure that the line on your resume will meaningfully sort you from everyone else. It looks like you're an Emory student: what are you doing? How was the job hunt there?

pm'd

Can you please PM me with that information as well?

[ze2151]

done

[BigZuck]

If you haven't lived in a place then you don't really have ties there as far as firms are concerned, at least according to this site.

Emory is my undergraduate alma mater so I have lived there.

Then definitely do Emory bro. No question in my opinion. Enjoy your Woody.

[Ti Malice]

Thanks for your input, everyone. I really appreciate it. In response to your questions:

Which lower T14 and what exact amount of merit aid?
Michigan and Georgetown and also considering Vanderbilt and Texas

Are those T14 scholarships $30K per year or in total?
Total

Would you be living on your own in Atlanta?
Yes

Are there any schools where your app is still under review? If so, which ones?
Yes: NYU, Columbia, Northwestern, Cornell

What are your career goals if not biglaw?
Unsure. Maybe employment or family law. Still finding it hard to let go of the idea of producing legal scholarship or teaching someday. Call me crazy, but I'll do what I can to still go for it...

Since you're from the South, is that lower T14 Duke?
I’m actually not from the South, I just have ties there. I also have ties in the North.

Very helpful. I'm surprised that no T14 is offering you more than $10K per year. I don't know the average numbers profile of Woodruff recipients, but I thought the stats were up there. I doubt Michigan or GULC would negotiate with a Woodruff offer, but I suppose you could try. As it stands, Emory for only COL sounds like the more attractive option. Others may differ, but paying either sticker or near sticker at Michigan or GULC is a scary thought to me.

If you accept the Woodruff, are you required to withdraw from the schools where you've already been accepted?

[crystalball]

removed.

[BigZuck]

How can they require you to withdraw from waitlists?

And you didn't apply to Duke?

Duke, Cornell, or NU with money could very well be your best option but unfortunately you have no way of knowing what kind of money they would offer. Did you apply late or something?

[abl]

Michigan's not exactly a lower T-14, and probable gives you your only realistic shot at being a law professor out of the bunch you've named (note: realistic =/ likely). So if that's your dream job and you're willing to risk it, go to Michigan. If you think you'd be happy doing employment/family law -- which to my knowledge are not particularly competitive and don't pay particularly well -- and are ok giving up the law prof dreams, go to Emory. If you go to Michigan and don't do well enough to have a shot at being a law prof (probably around top 10% to have a shot), which as you can imagine is not easy at Michigan), you'll probably be in too much debt to employment/family law. I'd forget about Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Texas, Cornell (if admitted), and maybe Northwestern (if admitted) without substantial finaid. My sense is that you're not so desperate to academia that gambling on Michigan would make much sense, so I'd go to Emory.*

*It's worth finding out if Michigan's LRAP covers employment/family law. If so, this weights the equation back towards Michigan in my book. Ditto for any of the other above schools that I recommended against. If LRAP covers employment/fam law, any of them could be a good (probably better than Emory) option.

[crystalball]

removed.

[Ti Malice]

Thanks for your input, everyone. I really appreciate it. In response to your questions:

Which lower T14 and what exact amount of merit aid?
Michigan and Georgetown and also considering Vanderbilt and Texas

Are those T14 scholarships $30K per year or in total?
Total

Would you be living on your own in Atlanta?
Yes

Are there any schools where your app is still under review? If so, which ones?
Yes: NYU, Columbia, Northwestern, Cornell

What are your career goals if not biglaw?
Unsure. Maybe employment or family law. Still finding it hard to let go of the idea of producing legal scholarship or teaching someday. Call me crazy, but I'll do what I can to still go for it...

Since you're from the South, is that lower T14 Duke?
I’m actually not from the South, I just have ties there. I also have ties in the North.

Very helpful. I'm surprised that no T14 is offering you more than $10K per year. I don't know the average numbers profile of Woodruff recipients, but I thought the stats were up there. I doubt Michigan or GULC would negotiate with a Woodruff offer, but I suppose you could try. As it stands, Emory for only COL sounds like the more attractive option. Others may differ, but paying either sticker or near sticker at Michigan or GULC is a scary thought to me.

If you accept the Woodruff, are you required to withdraw from the schools where you've already been accepted?

I only applied to a few t-14 schools because I care more about programs compatible with my interests than rankings, at least to an extent (attracted to GULC's plan B curriculum and Michigan's Program in Race, Law & History). While my numbers are pretty solid, there's no real indication of need anywhere on my application and it is my personal opinion that my resume speaks much more to my abilities than my numbers. Unfortunately, US News Rankings doesn't take any "soft" factors into account and thus extremely generous scholarship offers from t-14 schools have not been coming in droves...

And yes, I would be required to withdraw all decisions (acceptances and wait lists) as well as pending applications.

First things first, Emory cannot require you to withdraw pending applications as a condition of accepting the Woodruff, regardless of what they say. They can require you to withdraw apps from schools to which you've been accepted, but that's it. See: http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... rency.aspx.

Understood on the scholarships. It looks like the Woodruff program actually takes into account something beyond only straight numbers, which is refreshing.

Good luck on your other applications.

[BigZuck]

Michigan's not exactly a lower T-14, and probable gives you your only realistic shot at being a law professor out of the bunch you've named (note: realistic =/ likely). So if that's your dream job and you're willing to risk it, go to Michigan. If you think you'd be happy doing employment/family law -- which to my knowledge are not particularly competitive and don't pay particularly well -- and are ok giving up the law prof dreams, go to Emory. If you go to Michigan and don't do well enough to have a shot at being a law prof (probably around top 10% to have a shot), which as you can imagine is not easy at Michigan), you'll probably be in too much debt to employment/family law. I'd forget about Georgetown, Vanderbilt, Texas, Cornell (if admitted), and maybe Northwestern (if admitted) without substantial finaid. My sense is that you're not so desperate to academia that gambling on Michigan would make much sense, so I'd go to Emory.*

*It's worth finding out if Michigan's LRAP covers employment/family law. If so, this weights the equation back towards Michigan in my book. Ditto for any of the other above schools that I recommended against. If LRAP covers employment/fam law, any of them could be a good (probably better than Emory) option.

Michigan might not be a lower T14 but they sure place worse than one AMIRITE!?!

Seriously though don't pass up a full ride at Emory to go to Michigan. And forget about being a professor. I mean, dreams and goals are nice and all but it's only going to happen if you get great grades and you can't count on that. I would keep that as an aspiration of yours but I wouldn't base any decisions upon it because its such a remote possibility. I would just base your decision on the most likely outcome.