NYU vs. Penn vs. rest of lower T-14 vs. UCLA $$ and USC $$$ Forum

[swordking90]

Thanks for your interest everyone! I am choosing between the following schools, and please give me your opinion! I want to do public interest (preferably government job) or international law on the East Coast, but I'm from California so I'm ok with ending up on the West Coast if the balance is much in the West Coast schools' favor. I cannot retake the LSAT. Please take a look at the following list, which is prior to serious negotiations, but I do not expect the scholarship to be significant even if I eke some out with bargaining:

T-14 acceptances:
NYU: sticker
Penn: sticker
UVA: sticker
Berkeley (might get some money off Matching program)
Michigan: $45,000 in total scholly
Duke: scholly under review (presumably $45,000-$60,000 total)
Cornell: $75,000 in total scholly

Serious contenders outside of the T-14:
Vanderbilt: $96,000 total
UCLA: $90,000 total + in state + $3000/year in grant aid
USC: $120,000 total

I am planning on taking out loans on my own, and relying on LRAP if I get into public service. My parents (middle class) may be able to help out a little but I'm not having them shoulder the burden. I'm also open to doing BigLaw for a few years to get some experience, pay off some debt, and then find something less stressful.

Please let me know which school you think I should attend, and please give your reasons. Your votes and input are much appreciated!

[curious66]

Thanks for your interest everyone! I am choosing between the following schools, and please give me your opinion! I want to do public interest (preferably government job) or international law on the East Coast, but I'm from California so I'm ok with ending up on the West Coast if the balance is much in the West Coast schools' favor. I cannot retake the LSAT. Please take a look at the following list, which is prior to serious negotiations, but I do not expect the scholarship to be significant even if I eke some out with bargaining:

T-14 acceptances:
NYU: sticker
Penn: sticker
UVA: sticker
Berkeley (might get some money off Matching program)
Michigan: $45,000 in total scholly
Duke: scholly under review (presumably $45,000-$60,000 total)
Cornell: scolly under review (presumably $45,000-$60,000 total)

Serious contenders outside of the T-14:
Vanderbilt: $96,000 total
UCLA: $90,000 total + in state + $3000/year in grant aid
USC: $120,000 total

I am planning on taking out loans on my own, and relying on LRAP if I get into public service. My parents (middle class) may be able to help out a little but I'm not having them shoulder the burden. I'm also open to doing BigLaw for a few years to get some experience, pay off some debt, and then find something less stressful.

Please let me know which school you think I should attend, and please give your reasons. Your votes and input are much appreciated!

If money is not a big consideration for you, I would do NYU or Penn. Both will get you east coast over easier than UVA. However, if $$ will sway you, then Michigan or Cornell (assuming similar $) is your best bet. Berkeley is great for CA (61% CA placement or thereabouts) but does not have legs outside as much + you don't have money from them yet.
Since you have T14 acceptances w/money, I would nix the below T14's at this point -- given the employment prospects.

[swordking90]

If money is not a big consideration for you, I would do NYU or Penn. Both will get you east coast over easier than UVA. However, if $$ will sway you, then Michigan or Cornell (assuming similar $) is your best bet. Berkeley is great for CA (61% CA placement or thereabouts) but does not have legs outside as much + you don't have money from them yet.
Since you have T14 acceptances w/money, I would nix the below T14's at this point -- given the employment prospects.

Thanks Curious for your suggestions! Allow me to clarify about my take on the financial calculations for others who may want to chime in:
$ is not too big of an issue not because I'm rich or anything close to it, but because I figured that, assuming I choose between the T-14 schools, $180,000 in cost-of-attendance (for Michigan, Duke, etc.) is not that different from $250,000+ in cost of attendance (for NYU, Penn) as far as me needing a BigLaw job or a good LRAP program to pay off the debt. And although I have generous schollys from UCLA and USC, that still leaves about $110,000 in cost of attendance, and I'll have much less of a chance at a good public interest job or BigLaw than the East Coast powerhouses. Please chime in if you have any advice!

[02889]

As far as LRAPs go, NYU's is the best on that list for a couple reasons: 1) you have 5 years to enter the LRAP, meaning you could do biglaw for a couple years then jump into a nonprofit/government and still fully qualify (with payments adjusted accordingly, though); 2) they have a plan that forgives what you've paid after the first 36 months to combat negative amortization; 3) they let you remaining eligible if you're working part-time to raise a child; and 4) you can have up to 24 months deferment for "life happens" (grad degree, loss of employment, raising child) and still rejoin the program afterwards.

That said, most people (0Ls and practicing lawyers alike) will say that counting on 10 years in eligible employment is a risk for any school. I do think that NYU's program does more to reduce that risk than any of the other schools on your list, though.

[swordking90]

As far as LRAPs go, NYU's is the best on that list for a couple reasons: 1) you have 5 years to enter the LRAP, meaning you could do biglaw for a couple years then jump into a nonprofit/government and still fully qualify (with payments adjusted accordingly, though); 2) they have a plan that forgives what you've paid after the first 36 months to combat negative amortization; 3) they let you remaining eligible if you're working part-time to raise a child; and 4) you can have up to 24 months deferment for "life happens" (grad degree, loss of employment, raising child) and still rejoin the program afterwards.

That said, most people (0Ls and practicing lawyers alike) will say that counting on 10 years in eligible employment is a risk for any school. I do think that NYU's program does more to reduce that risk than any of the other schools on your list, though.

Thanks 02889 for the detailed explanation! Do you (or anyone else) think Penn might match or supersede NYU in the rankings (or in my consideration), given that Penn has stellar placement in BigLaw and has renovated its LRAP to more-or-less match that of NYU's?

[bruinfan10]

I highly doubt you'll get money from Berkeley's matching program. They're insanely cheap over there.

[swordking90]

I highly doubt you'll get money from Berkeley's matching program. They're insanely cheap over there.

Yeah I know they are quite stingy. Not placing much hope there.

[02889]

As far as LRAPs go, NYU's is the best on that list for a couple reasons: 1) you have 5 years to enter the LRAP, meaning you could do biglaw for a couple years then jump into a nonprofit/government and still fully qualify (with payments adjusted accordingly, though); 2) they have a plan that forgives what you've paid after the first 36 months to combat negative amortization; 3) they let you remaining eligible if you're working part-time to raise a child; and 4) you can have up to 24 months deferment for "life happens" (grad degree, loss of employment, raising child) and still rejoin the program afterwards.

That said, most people (0Ls and practicing lawyers alike) will say that counting on 10 years in eligible employment is a risk for any school. I do think that NYU's program does more to reduce that risk than any of the other schools on your list, though.

Thanks 02889 for the detailed explanation! Do you (or anyone else) think Penn might match or supersede NYU in the rankings (or in my consideration), given that Penn has stellar placement in BigLaw and has renovated its LRAP to more-or-less match that of NYU's?

Penn's LRAP does not match NYU's. They just changed it to be based on IBR, which means the income cap can be higher (because it's cheaper for the school to pay your loan payments) but on the whole it's probably somewhat worse than before it had joined with IBR, in the event that you don't make it to a full 10 years. Also, my #1 - #4 above are differences between NYU's and Penn's LRAPs. It should be a significant factor.

As for ranking changes, I don't see how that should matter. Both schools give you an excellent shot at biglaw, equal shot at clerkships, and a good chance at PI if you have the resume and build the connections.

[Nelson]

As far as LRAPs go, NYU's is the best on that list for a couple reasons: 1) you have 5 years to enter the LRAP, meaning you could do biglaw for a couple years then jump into a nonprofit/government and still fully qualify (with payments adjusted accordingly, though); 2) they have a plan that forgives what you've paid after the first 36 months to combat negative amortization; 3) they let you remaining eligible if you're working part-time to raise a child; and 4) you can have up to 24 months deferment for "life happens" (grad degree, loss of employment, raising child) and still rejoin the program afterwards.

That said, most people (0Ls and practicing lawyers alike) will say that counting on 10 years in eligible employment is a risk for any school. I do think that NYU's program does more to reduce that risk than any of the other schools on your list, though.

Thanks 02889 for the detailed explanation! Do you (or anyone else) think Penn might match or supersede NYU in the rankings (or in my consideration), given that Penn has stellar placement in BigLaw and has renovated its LRAP to more-or-less match that of NYU's?

Penn's LRAP does not match NYU's. They just changed it to be based on IBR, which means the income cap can be higher (because it's cheaper for the school to pay your loan payments) but on the whole it's probably somewhat worse than before it had joined with IBR, in the event that you don't make it to a full 10 years. Also, my #1 - #4 above are differences between NYU's and Penn's LRAPs. It should be a significant factor.

As for ranking changes, I don't see how that should matter. Both schools give you an excellent shot at biglaw, equal shot at clerkships, and a good chance at PI if you have the resume and build the connections.

NYU's LRAP is linked to IBR as well. LRAPs just aren't a reason to choose a school other than HYS since all of the IBR-linked ones are too risky to make sticker debt a good idea. The differences you list above are nominal at best.

I wouldn't go to either Penn or NYU at sticker if there's significant money on the table at other T14s.

[JamMasterJ]

Michigan, unless Berkeley matches - alternatively UCLA

[SportsFan]

For east coast PI, I'd go to whichever T14 gives you the best scholarship. And make sure to negotiate!

[thelawyler]

Oh, realize I've already exchanged PMs with you haha.

[Ti Malice]

If money is not a big consideration for you, I would do NYU or Penn. Both will get you east coast over easier than UVA. However, if $$ will sway you, then Michigan or Cornell (assuming similar $) is your best bet. Berkeley is great for CA (61% CA placement or thereabouts) but does not have legs outside as much + you don't have money from them yet.

Berkeley will get you to NYC or DC just as well as Michigan or UVA will.

[swordking90]

Thanks all for your suggestions! I should probably also add that I have a longtime girlfriend who is going to be still in undergrad in the Northeast for the next 2 years, and hence I would prefer to stay on the East Coast, all else being equal.

[BigZuck]

Thanks for your interest everyone! I am choosing between the following schools, and please give me your opinion! I want to do public interest (preferably government job) or international law on the East Coast, but I'm from California so I'm ok with ending up on the West Coast if the balance is much in the West Coast schools' favor. I cannot retake the LSAT. Please take a look at the following list, which is prior to serious negotiations, but I do not expect the scholarship to be significant even if I eke some out with bargaining:

T-14 acceptances:
NYU: sticker
Penn: sticker
UVA: sticker
Berkeley (might get some money off Matching program)
Michigan: $45,000 in total scholly
Duke: scholly under review (presumably $45,000-$60,000 total)
Cornell: scolly under review (presumably $45,000-$60,000 total)

Serious contenders outside of the T-14:
Vanderbilt: $96,000 total
UCLA: $90,000 total + in state + $3000/year in grant aid
USC: $120,000 total

I am planning on taking out loans on my own, and relying on LRAP if I get into public service. My parents (middle class) may be able to help out a little but I'm not having them shoulder the burden. I'm also open to doing BigLaw for a few years to get some experience, pay off some debt, and then find something less stressful.

Please let me know which school you think I should attend, and please give your reasons. Your votes and input are much appreciated!

If money is not a big consideration for you, I would do NYU or Penn. Both will get you east coast over easier than UVA. However, if $$ will sway you, then Michigan or Cornell (assuming similar $) is your best bet. Berkeley is great for CA (61% CA placement or thereabouts) but does not have legs outside as much + you don't have money from them yet.
Since you have T14 acceptances w/money, I would nix the below T14's at this point -- given the employment prospects.

Disgustingly egregious anti-Duke trolling.

OP, I would go to whatever T14 is cheapest unless all the scholarships are in the 50k or less range, in which case I would negotiate UCLA up to a full ride and call it a cycle. Also I would remove the girlfriend from the equation altogether. That frequently backfires and it would be a shame to potentially negatively impact your life long term because of a relationship. If you're going to get married though then that is obviously a different story.

[curious66]

Thanks for your interest everyone! I am choosing between the following schools, and please give me your opinion! I want to do public interest (preferably government job) or international law on the East Coast, but I'm from California so I'm ok with ending up on the West Coast if the balance is much in the West Coast schools' favor. I cannot retake the LSAT. Please take a look at the following list, which is prior to serious negotiations, but I do not expect the scholarship to be significant even if I eke some out with bargaining:

T-14 acceptances:
NYU: sticker
Penn: sticker
UVA: sticker
Berkeley (might get some money off Matching program)
Michigan: $45,000 in total scholly
Duke: scholly under review (presumably $45,000-$60,000 total)
Cornell: scolly under review (presumably $45,000-$60,000 total)

Serious contenders outside of the T-14:
Vanderbilt: $96,000 total
UCLA: $90,000 total + in state + $3000/year in grant aid
USC: $120,000 total

I am planning on taking out loans on my own, and relying on LRAP if I get into public service. My parents (middle class) may be able to help out a little but I'm not having them shoulder the burden. I'm also open to doing BigLaw for a few years to get some experience, pay off some debt, and then find something less stressful.

Please let me know which school you think I should attend, and please give your reasons. Your votes and input are much appreciated!

If money is not a big consideration for you, I would do NYU or Penn. Both will get you east coast over easier than UVA. However, if $$ will sway you, then Michigan or Cornell (assuming similar $) is your best bet. Berkeley is great for CA (61% CA placement or thereabouts) but does not have legs outside as much + you don't have money from them yet.
Since you have T14 acceptances w/money, I would nix the below T14's at this point -- given the employment prospects.

Disgustingly egregious anti-Duke trolling.

OP, I would go to whatever T14 is cheapest unless all the scholarships are in the 50k or less range, in which case I would negotiate UCLA up to a full ride and call it a cycle. Also I would remove the girlfriend from the equation altogether. That frequently backfires and it would be a shame to potentially negatively impact your life long term because of a relationship. If you're going to get married though then that is obviously a different story.

Sorry there.. didn't mean to diss Duke. HOpefully did not come off that way.

[BigZuck]

I was just kidding, I liked it because Duke is always the forgotten one of the T14.

[jbagelboy]

OP,

Its actually shocking how similar our situations are. I have basically the same choice ahead with small differences in $ and I'm looking at columbia rather than penn (didn't apply). I also am not going to ask my parents for money for law school, so it will be all merit aid + loans and small (around $3K like you) grant aid. And I really don't know what to do either.

I'm torn between the new york schools with very low aid, and Cal with probably 20-25K/yr matching, or taking the sweet deal at UCLA for very little debt (negligible COA since I'm from the area too). I probably won't end up in the south or midwest, but I'm not totally passing up the Chicago schools yet either. Please keep me informed about your decision/cycle. Are you waiting for any more admits/WL's or is this list your final?

Good luck!

[curious66]

I was just kidding, I liked it because Duke is always the forgotten one of the T14.

True..but it is on my top 2 list anyway right now .

[jvincent11]

Damn that's a nice cycle. We have identical stats and I am praying for a similar result, but already dinged at NYU not even a wait list

[02889]

As far as LRAPs go, NYU's is the best on that list for a couple reasons: 1) you have 5 years to enter the LRAP, meaning you could do biglaw for a couple years then jump into a nonprofit/government and still fully qualify (with payments adjusted accordingly, though); 2) they have a plan that forgives what you've paid after the first 36 months to combat negative amortization; 3) they let you remaining eligible if you're working part-time to raise a child; and 4) you can have up to 24 months deferment for "life happens" (grad degree, loss of employment, raising child) and still rejoin the program afterwards.

That said, most people (0Ls and practicing lawyers alike) will say that counting on 10 years in eligible employment is a risk for any school. I do think that NYU's program does more to reduce that risk than any of the other schools on your list, though.

Thanks 02889 for the detailed explanation! Do you (or anyone else) think Penn might match or supersede NYU in the rankings (or in my consideration), given that Penn has stellar placement in BigLaw and has renovated its LRAP to more-or-less match that of NYU's?

Penn's LRAP does not match NYU's. They just changed it to be based on IBR, which means the income cap can be higher (because it's cheaper for the school to pay your loan payments) but on the whole it's probably somewhat worse than before it had joined with IBR, in the event that you don't make it to a full 10 years. Also, my #1 - #4 above are differences between NYU's and Penn's LRAPs. It should be a significant factor.

As for ranking changes, I don't see how that should matter. Both schools give you an excellent shot at biglaw, equal shot at clerkships, and a good chance at PI if you have the resume and build the connections.

NYU's LRAP is linked to IBR as well. LRAPs just aren't a reason to choose a school other than HYS since all of the IBR-linked ones are too risky to make sticker debt a good idea. The differences you list above are nominal at best.

I wouldn't go to either Penn or NYU at sticker if there's significant money on the table at other T14s.

I said in my original post that most people will say that counting on LRAP is a risk. But while NYU's LRAP is also based on IBR, I hardly think the differences are nominal. At Penn, if you're on LRAP for 5 years then need to work part-time to raise children, you're kicked out of LRAP and you're in a terrible position because your debt balance will be more than when you graduated. With NYU, you've made significant headway on your loans (forgiveness after 3 years) and you can continue to participate. Almost all of the "shit, life is going to get in the way of 10 years of LRAP-eligible employment" things that make it a risk in the first place are addressed by NYU's plan and mostly unaddressed by Penn.

As schools, they are equal (and thus equally risky at sticker). My point, which I clearly said, was that NYU's LRAP does more to reduce the LRAP-associated risk than the other schools on the list.

[one_by_one]

.

[swordking90]

OP,

Its actually shocking how similar our situations are. I have basically the same choice ahead with small differences in $ and I'm looking at columbia rather than penn (didn't apply). I also am not going to ask my parents for money for law school, so it will be all merit aid + loans and small (around $3K like you) grant aid. And I really don't know what to do either.

I'm torn between the new york schools with very low aid, and Cal with probably 20-25K/yr matching, or taking the sweet deal at UCLA for very little debt (negligible COA since I'm from the area too). I probably won't end up in the south or midwest, but I'm not totally passing up the Chicago schools yet either. Please keep me informed about your decision/cycle. Are you waiting for any more admits/WL's or is this list your final?

Good luck!

Congrats on all your acceptances jbagelboy! I'm still waiting on a few schools, including Columbia. I'll be watching your cycle as well; let me know what you decide on!

[Nelson]

I said in my original post that most people will say that counting on LRAP is a risk. But while NYU's LRAP is also based on IBR, I hardly think the differences are nominal. At Penn, if you're on LRAP for 5 years then need to work part-time to raise children, you're kicked out of LRAP and you're in a terrible position because your debt balance will be more than when you graduated. With NYU, you've made significant headway on your loans (forgiveness after 3 years) and you can continue to participate. Almost all of the "shit, life is going to get in the way of 10 years of LRAP-eligible employment" things that make it a risk in the first place are addressed by NYU's plan and mostly unaddressed by Penn.

As schools, they are equal (and thus equally risky at sticker). My point, which I clearly said, was that NYU's LRAP does more to reduce the LRAP-associated risk than the other schools on the list.

You're right in principle but its pretty irrelevant in practice at sticker price since 3 years of IBR payments on a PI salary won't make a dent in the balance regardless of whether someone picks up your amortization. You're 10 year PI or bust either way. If you at any point plan to go part time to have a family, then make sure you can pay off your loans before you do.

[megagnarley]

In regard to LRAP Mich is definitely a competitor. They use a sliding scale to help with payments up to 75k and even count private practice, meaning it doesn't have to be PI related, in addition to letting you slide in and out.

They revamped it in 2011 I believe.