Interesting situation. Forum

[twenty]

My cycle this year has been an unparalleled disaster; 166/No GPA, MA URM, and not a single T14 acceptance so far. I get that acceptances can come in as late as April, but I seriously doubt I'm getting much/any money -- I think my lack of letter grades is royally screwing me over, honestly.

That said, the only real reason I want to do law school is to end up doing prosecution work; DA/AUSA, or maybe career JAG. While I appreciate that T14 (particularly HYS) is the end-all for biglaw, I only see minor advantages to going to Duke, (if I even got Duke) over UCI/USD considering my career goals.

So, at this point, I'm wondering if it would be better to sit out a year and ED to GW/BU for the full-ride scholarship and gun for AFROTC (no tuition scholarship), or else ED to Penn and go for Army ROTC on scholarship. I know Army doesn't guarantee placement in the JAG, but at this point, I'm not even sure I'd get a local DA's office right out of UCI/USD regardless.

What say you, TLS? Start panic-applying to regional T1's, or ED UVA? D:

[jenesaislaw]

I do not like to advocate for people going to admissions consultants, particularly when sites like TLS, LSN, and LST exist. However, your 166/URM cycle is too out of the norm. You did something wrong, and I don't think there's a chance it's a grade thing.

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't think your results are that surprising. Think of your GPA as below median, and you are below both medians at every T-14. MA URMs don't always get a big boost. Seems like someone with your numbers/URM combo was always going to have to wait until late in the cycle to get a clear picture of things. How have things gone outside of the T-14?

[jenesaislaw]

I don't think your results are that surprising. Think of your GPA as below median, and you are below both medians at every T-14. MA URMs don't always get a big boost. Seems like someone with your numbers/URM combo was always going to have to wait until late in the cycle to get a clear picture of things. How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Why? Unless I'm mistaken, he would be excluded from the GPA statistics. As such, a school has no reason to treat him as below median even if they're confused about how to treat him.

[Tiago Splitter]

I don't think your results are that surprising. Think of your GPA as below median, and you are below both medians at every T-14. MA URMs don't always get a big boost. Seems like someone with your numbers/URM combo was always going to have to wait until late in the cycle to get a clear picture of things. How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Why? Unless I'm mistaken, he would be excluded from the GPA statistics. As such, a school has no reason to treat him as below median even if they're confused about how to treat him.

Because he is below every T-14 LSAT median, so he doesn't help any medians. Looking through LSN I don't see much success so far from any MA URMs numbers below both medians, but the sample size is obviously small. I'd agree with your previous post if he has been struggling to get into schools where his LSAT is at or above the median.

[twenty]

How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Radio silence at safeties (UCLA, USC, USD, UCI)

he would be excluded from the GPA statistics

That's what I thought, too, which is why plugging data into mylsn based on the school's target medians surprised me so much in contrast to the actual outcomes. So weird. D:

[jenesaislaw]

I don't think your results are that surprising. Think of your GPA as below median, and you are below both medians at every T-14. MA URMs don't always get a big boost. Seems like someone with your numbers/URM combo was always going to have to wait until late in the cycle to get a clear picture of things. How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Why? Unless I'm mistaken, he would be excluded from the GPA statistics. As such, a school has no reason to treat him as below median even if they're confused about how to treat him.

Because he is below every T-14 LSAT median, so he doesn't help any medians. Looking through LSN I don't see much success so far from any MA URMs numbers below both medians, but the sample size is obviously small. I'd agree with your previous post if he has been struggling to get into schools where his LSAT is at or above the median.

I think you're looking at this wrong. The only thing that matters numbers-wise is how much a school desires a URM with a 166. (For the record, I hate reducing people to numbers like this, especially when it comes to racial reductions, but it's a realistic way to analyze things.) For the incoming class of 2011, all but 9 schools had a 25th percentile of 166 or less. Schools massage their medians mostly, but still also massage their lower and upper quartiles, as well as diversity measures. That's the area of massaging we need to look at because VERY few URMs (relative to non-URMs) are above the T14 medians according to LSAC data.

[Tiago Splitter]

How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Radio silence at safeties (UCLA, USC, USD, UCI)

This is more concerning. When did you apply?

For the incoming class of 2011, all but 9 schools had a 25th percentile of 166 or less. Schools massage their medians mostly, but still also massage their lower and upper quartiles, as well as diversity measures. That's the area of massaging we need to look at because VERY few URMs (relative to non-URMs) are above the T14 medians according to LSAC data.

Remember he only mentioned the T-14 in his OP. I imagine all 9 of those schools are in the T-14.

If you really think this is an anomaly you should be able to cite data points from LSN. I've looked, and they don't exist. I imagine that by the end of the cycle they'll be there, but we've got a ways to go.

[twenty]

How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Radio silence at safeties (UCLA, USC, USD, UCI)

This is more concerning. When did you apply?

November for UCLA and USC, mid-January for USD and early February for UCI. UCLA and USC are the ones I'm most concerned about.

[jenesaislaw]

For the incoming class of 2011, all but 9 schools had a 25th percentile of 166 or less. Schools massage their medians mostly, but still also massage their lower and upper quartiles, as well as diversity measures. That's the area of massaging we need to look at because VERY few URMs (relative to non-URMs) are above the T14 medians according to LSAC data.

Remember he only mentioned the T-14 in his OP. I imagine all 9 of those schools are in the T-14.

If you really think this is an anomaly you should be able to cite data points from LSN. I've looked, and they don't exist. I imagine that by the end of the cycle they'll be there, but we've got a ways to go.

Here is the search I ran that provided enough data points: --LinkRemoved-- I focused mostly on those with GPAs below the bottom quartile of the bottom T14 schools because that meant the LSAT and URM status were the most important factors.

[John_rizzy_rawls]

How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Radio silence at safeties (UCLA, USC, USD, UCI)

This is more concerning. When did you apply?

November for UCLA and USC, mid-January for USD and early February for UCI. UCLA and USC are the ones I'm most concerned about.

You haven't heard anything from LA, SC, or Irvine?

Wow you are having a weird cycle.

Do you have any bad C&F issues or really sub-par LoR?

[eav1277]

Fellow mexican american. The waiting must suck. I feel that the lack of GPA is what is contributing to your longer response times. However with a 166, I am honestly surprised you haven't had better luck/quicker responses. I have much lower LSAT and a 3.7 GPA. But I've heard back from USC, UCLA, USD, and UCI. So far no luck at the T-14's, but I expected that due to my LSAT.

I applied to USC and UCLA in November also (heard back within the last two weeks. But with your LSAT, I feel like you should been a lock and heard back already).

[Nova]

I don't think your results are that surprising. Think of your GPA as below median, and you are below both medians at every T-14. MA URMs don't always get a big boost. Seems like someone with your numbers/URM combo was always going to have to wait until late in the cycle to get a clear picture of things. How have things gone outside of the T-14?

Why? Unless I'm mistaken, he would be excluded from the GPA statistics. As such, a school has no reason to treat him as below median even if they're confused about how to treat him.

Because he is below every T-14 LSAT median, so he doesn't help any medians.

hmm I feel like no gpa would practically equal a median gpa because that is how it would affect the schools gpa median if accepted.

[Tiago Splitter]

hmm I feel like no gpa would practically equal a median gpa because that is how it would affect the schools gpa median if accepted.

Maybe. Of course that makes finding useful comparisons on LSN almost impossible. Definitely a tricky situation but a URM, especially one without a GPA, having to wait a while to hear back doesn't strike me as a huge surprise.

[John_rizzy_rawls]

I may be wrong but wouldn't someone in OPs situation need to have real strong recs to emphasize academic due to no GPA?

[superpippo]

Just for my own curiosity, could someone inform me about how one would have no GPA? Just a genuine curiosity of what type of programs/UG's would give a BA/BS without a grading system. I'm assuming a foreign student may have this because of the different grading rubrics (1/10 scale/ 1-3 scale, etc.). But other than that, what are the other scenarios allow for this?

[Bobnoxious]

One way would be from a school like Western Governors University - Regional Accreditation - Pass/Fail (claims passing is comparable to "at least" a B) - No grades = No GPA

[superpippo]

One way would be from a school like Western Governors University - Regional Accreditation - Pass/Fail (claims passing is comparable to "at least" a B) - No grades = No GPA

Damn that's a pretty harsh curve if a B- is a fail, but anyway appreciate the response. I didn't know about programs like that.

[twenty]

Do you have any bad C&F issues or really sub-par LoR?

No C&F, two academic LORs that both said (according to them) that I was a great student, blah, blah, blah, and one professional that spoke to work product. The two professors were CC lecturers, but that's apparently not super important?

having to wait a while to hear back doesn't strike me as a huge surprise.

The waiting around isn't actually all that surprising, it's the slew of dings that's giving me moment to pause. Like, I haven't been waitlisted once, aside from "holds" at Cornell and GULC (which became a ding), along with the fact that no one's biting.

One way would be from a school like Western Governors University - Regional Accreditation - Pass/Fail (claims passing is comparable to "at least" a B) - No grades = No GPA

This. And actually, there's a little bit of disinformation on TLS -- if you have less than 60 graded credits, LSAC will not issue a cumulative GPA, even if you have graded credits on your transcript. For example, I have somewhere between a 3.9 and a 4.0 GPA, but it's only based on 20~ credits, so no uGPA as far as law schools are concerned.

[jenesaislaw]

And actually, there's a little bit of disinformation on TLS -- if you have less than 60 graded credits, LSAC will not issue a cumulative GPA, even if you have graded credits on your transcript. For example, I have somewhere between a 3.9 and a 4.0 GPA, but it's only based on 20~ credits, so no uGPA as far as law schools are concerned.

This makes it all the more puzzling. If a school is going to look for evidence of hard work, this is one way to see it. It's not totally meaningful, because like you said it's just 20 credits, but it's at least evidence in lieu of an LSDAS GPA.

Seriously, have somebody pour over your applications with an objective eye.

[twenty]

And actually, there's a little bit of disinformation on TLS -- if you have less than 60 graded credits, LSAC will not issue a cumulative GPA, even if you have graded credits on your transcript. For example, I have somewhere between a 3.9 and a 4.0 GPA, but it's only based on 20~ credits, so no uGPA as far as law schools are concerned.

This makes it all the more puzzling. If a school is going to look for evidence of hard work, this is one way to see it. It's not totally meaningful, because like you said it's just 20 credits, but it's at least evidence in lieu of an LSDAS GPA.

Seriously, have somebody pour over your applications with an objective eye.

This may be the best way to go.

Thanks everyone. I'll be posting updates on my cycle in the URM thread. :)