UCI vs Loyola LA Forum

[Lieut Kaffee]

Hey everyone. Have a friend making this decision. I wasn't very helpful with the advice since UCI is pretty new and I don't know much about them. Particularly concerned with big law placement in ca.

[ndirish2010]

If you want biglaw, neither.

[timbs4339]

Hey everyone. Have a friend making this decision. I wasn't very helpful with the advice since UCI is pretty new and I don't know much about them. Particularly concerned with big law placement in CA.

You're not going to get very positive responses. Loyola's CA biglaw placement is horrible- you'd need top 10% to even have a shot.

UCI is likely not going to place very well in biglaw either. It's initial placement numbers are buoyed by a low class size and the full scholarships they gave to their whole class that allowed them to attract high numbers candidates. I would not take out more than 75K in loans to attend UCI until I had a verifiable employment number from a full-sized class of people mostly paying sticker to see how employers view the new school.

[leprocrastinating]

Full disclosure, I'm a 2L at UCI. I don't think this is a close case, unless you really like LA.

Consider a few things:
-Admission stats. There's a significant gap in the GPA and LSAT scores of enrolled students.
-Class sizes. UCI has a much better student to faculty ratio.
-FACULTY. Huge difference here. UCI's faculty has been ranked 11th, 10th, and most recently 7th in the nation for scholarly impact. Loyola did not make the list. Link: http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2012_ ... pact.shtml.
-Bar passage rate
-Clerkships: UCI grads have obtained clerkships at a phenomenally high rate (roughly 25% for the first class). Granted, this is partially a statistical artifact due to low class sizes for the first few years, but even if the rate dropped by half it would still be quite good.
-Biglaw. I have access to both UCI's and Loyola's Smplicity clients. Loyola gets FAR fewer job postings. UCI has a very solid turnout for OCI, and many of my classmates have been offered summer associate positions.

Personally I chose UCI over Boston University (when it was ranked 22, not 26 like it is now). Granted my decision involved a 15k/yr scholarship, but still.
If I were to be pessimistic, I'd say UCI will get a ranking between t20 and t30. Loyola isn't even t50.

To address the poster above, numbers for the most recent class (which was not offered a blanket scholarship) are only slightly lower than the numbers for the fist class. Qualifications for recent students are quite comparable. Link: http://www.law.uci.edu/prospective/cons ... #admission

167/164 LSAT and 3.75/3.4 GPA for 2009 vs. 167/162 LSAT and 3.68/3.29 GPA for 2012. Lower, but keep in mind that practically every school has seen comparable drops in recent years, including T10 schools.

[boblawblog]

it's not a fair comparison, the better question is UCI or western state?

[dissonance1848]

Wow, leprocrastinating is quite the troll.

Seriously..... your friend cannot go to either of these schools..... unless Loyola is free + stipend for living expenses, or UCI gives them at least 40k/yr. scholly.

What are your friends stats? Can they retake the LSAT?

[leprocrastinating]

I get it, people on TLS don't like UCI. No one's forcing you to go there; but if you can't respond cogently to actual numbers (which would place UCI between top 15 and top 30) then I don't know why you bother. Saying UCI would be t30 is conservative, and Loyola isn't even t50.

I can say from personal experience that plenty of people in my class (the third class) have gotten offers. K&L Gates, O'Melvany & Myers, DLA Piper, Allen Matkins, Snell & Wilmer, Foley & Lardner, I personally know people who got offers from each of these firms and many weren't even in the top 20% of the class. Here, have fun: http://www.law.uci.edu/career_dev/Summe ... 0-2012.pdf

It's not Berkeley or UPenn, obviously, but it's also silly to compare it to UC Hastings, Loyola, or USD.

[Shammis]

LLSer here...go to UCI

[J90]

UCI.

[zman]

I get it, people on TLS don't like UCI. No one's forcing you to go there; but if you can't respond cogently to actual numbers (which would place UCI between top 15 and top 30) then I don't know why you bother. Saying UCI would be t30 is conservative, and Loyola isn't even t50.

I can say from personal experience that plenty of people in my class (the third class) have gotten offers. K&L Gates, O'Melvany & Myers, DLA Piper, Allen Matkins, Snell & Wilmer, Foley & Lardner, I personally know people who got offers from each of these firms and many weren't even in the top 20% of the class. Here, have fun: http://www.law.uci.edu/career_dev/Summe ... 0-2012.pdf

It's not Berkeley or UPenn, obviously, but it's also silly to compare it to UC Hastings, Loyola, or USD.

That's crazy. If Hastings and Loyola would lower its class size they could be better than Irvine. they are established. The only thing for sure Irvine has for it is the dean's connections with the judges so therefore they have the excellent clerkship placement for now but that may not last because Irvine's quality of students is not at the UCLA/USC level for example and it's probably barely above Loyola and Hastings. IN fact last year Irvine had 120 total in the 2015 class, I would bet Loyola's and hasting's best 120 are better..Hastings RUINED itself by raising tuitions so much and having huge class sizes but they were pretty respectable. There is nothing "silly" about it. Those schools are the schools Irvine competes with for students.

[dingbat]

Full disclosure, I'm a 2L at UCI. I don't think this is a close case, unless you really like LA.

Consider a few things:
-Admission stats. There's a significant gap in the GPA and LSAT scores of enrolled students. too bad admissions stats have no bearing on hiring
-Class sizes. UCI has a much better student to faculty ratio. but UCI is continually increasing its class sizes so who knows how ling this will last
-FACULTY. Huge difference here. UCI's faculty has been ranked 11th, 10th, and most recently 7th in the nation for scholarly impact. Loyola did not make the list. which doesn't affect employment outcomes
-Bar passage rate not possible to compare as UCI hasn't graduated a class yet
-Clerkships: UCI grads have obtained clerkships at a phenomenally high rate (roughly 25% for the first class). Granted, this is partially a statistical artifact due to low class sizes for the first few years, but even if the rate dropped by half it would still be quite good. low class sizes + dean calling in every favor he can, might not hold up so well when class size is significantly larger and the dean has used up every favor he had
-Biglaw. I have access to both UCI's and Loyola's Smplicity clients. Loyola gets FAR fewer job postings. UCI has a very solid turnout for OCI, and many of my classmates have been offered summer associate positions.it's questionable how long this situation will last

Personally I chose UCI over Boston University (when it was ranked 22, not 26 like it is now because 4 spots on the rankings is an absolute game changer). Granted my decision involved a 15k/yr scholarship, but still.
If I were to be pessimistic, I'd say UCI will get a ranking between t20 and t30 but only because UCI managed to game the rankings for the first year or so, it won't last. Loyola isn't even t50.

To address the poster above, numbers for the most recent class (which was not offered a blanket scholarship) are only slightly lower than the numbers for the fist class. Qualifications for recent students are quite comparable. Link: http://www.law.uci.edu/prospective/cons ... #admission

167/164 LSAT and 3.75/3.4 GPA for 2009 vs. 167/162 LSAT and 3.68/3.29 GPA for 2012. Lower, but keep in mind that practically every school has seen comparable drops in recent years, including T10 schools.

Truth is, UCI may end up being a good school (in terms of employment), or it may not. Do you want to bet your career on it?

[lakers0604]

LLSer here...go to UCI

May I ask, as an LLS student, why you recommend this?

[lrslayer]

Full disclosure, I'm a 2L at UCI. I don't think this is a close case, unless you really like LA.

Consider a few things:
-Admission stats. There's a significant gap in the GPA and LSAT scores of enrolled students. too bad admissions stats have no bearing on hiring
-Class sizes. UCI has a much better student to faculty ratio. but UCI is continually increasing its class sizes so who knows how ling this will last
-FACULTY. Huge difference here. UCI's faculty has been ranked 11th, 10th, and most recently 7th in the nation for scholarly impact. Loyola did not make the list. which doesn't affect employment outcomes
-Bar passage rate not possible to compare as UCI hasn't graduated a class yet
-Clerkships: UCI grads have obtained clerkships at a phenomenally high rate (roughly 25% for the first class). Granted, this is partially a statistical artifact due to low class sizes for the first few years, but even if the rate dropped by half it would still be quite good. low class sizes + dean calling in every favor he can, might not hold up so well when class size is significantly larger and the dean has used up every favor he had
-Biglaw. I have access to both UCI's and Loyola's Smplicity clients. Loyola gets FAR fewer job postings. UCI has a very solid turnout for OCI, and many of my classmates have been offered summer associate positions.it's questionable how long this situation will last

Personally I chose UCI over Boston University (when it was ranked 22, not 26 like it is now because 4 spots on the rankings is an absolute game changer). Granted my decision involved a 15k/yr scholarship, but still.
If I were to be pessimistic, I'd say UCI will get a ranking between t20 and t30 but only because UCI managed to game the rankings for the first year or so, it won't last. Loyola isn't even t50.

To address the poster above, numbers for the most recent class (which was not offered a blanket scholarship) are only slightly lower than the numbers for the fist class. Qualifications for recent students are quite comparable. Link: http://www.law.uci.edu/prospective/cons ... #admission

167/164 LSAT and 3.75/3.4 GPA for 2009 vs. 167/162 LSAT and 3.68/3.29 GPA for 2012. Lower, but keep in mind that practically every school has seen comparable drops in recent years, including T10 schools.

Truth is, UCI may end up being a good school (in terms of employment), or it may not. Do you want to bet your career on it?

You do know that UCI graduated a class in May of 2012 and they placed #2 --right behind Stanford-- for California bar passage rate, right?

[dingbat]

Full disclosure, I'm a 2L at UCI. I don't think this is a close case, unless you really like LA.

Consider a few things:
-Admission stats. There's a significant gap in the GPA and LSAT scores of enrolled students. too bad admissions stats have no bearing on hiring
-Class sizes. UCI has a much better student to faculty ratio. but UCI is continually increasing its class sizes so who knows how ling this will last
-FACULTY. Huge difference here. UCI's faculty has been ranked 11th, 10th, and most recently 7th in the nation for scholarly impact. Loyola did not make the list. which doesn't affect employment outcomes
-Bar passage rate not possible to compare as UCI hasn't graduated a class yet
-Clerkships: UCI grads have obtained clerkships at a phenomenally high rate (roughly 25% for the first class). Granted, this is partially a statistical artifact due to low class sizes for the first few years, but even if the rate dropped by half it would still be quite good. low class sizes + dean calling in every favor he can, might not hold up so well when class size is significantly larger and the dean has used up every favor he had
-Biglaw. I have access to both UCI's and Loyola's Smplicity clients. Loyola gets FAR fewer job postings. UCI has a very solid turnout for OCI, and many of my classmates have been offered summer associate positions.it's questionable how long this situation will last

Personally I chose UCI over Boston University (when it was ranked 22, not 26 like it is now because 4 spots on the rankings is an absolute game changer). Granted my decision involved a 15k/yr scholarship, but still.
If I were to be pessimistic, I'd say UCI will get a ranking between t20 and t30 but only because UCI managed to game the rankings for the first year or so, it won't last. Loyola isn't even t50.

To address the poster above, numbers for the most recent class (which was not offered a blanket scholarship) are only slightly lower than the numbers for the fist class. Qualifications for recent students are quite comparable. Link: http://www.law.uci.edu/prospective/cons ... #admission

167/164 LSAT and 3.75/3.4 GPA for 2009 vs. 167/162 LSAT and 3.68/3.29 GPA for 2012. Lower, but keep in mind that practically every school has seen comparable drops in recent years, including T10 schools.

Truth is, UCI may end up being a good school (in terms of employment), or it may not. Do you want to bet your career on it?

You do know that UCI graduated a class in May of 2012 and they placed #2 --right behind Stanford-- for California bar passage rate, right?

[Ti Malice]

Neither. Retake.

[leprocrastinating]

Full disclosure, I'm a 2L at UCI. I don't think this is a close case, unless you really like LA.

Consider a few things:
-Admission stats. There's a significant gap in the GPA and LSAT scores of enrolled students. too bad admissions stats have no bearing on hiring
-Class sizes. UCI has a much better student to faculty ratio. but UCI is continually increasing its class sizes so who knows how ling this will last
-FACULTY. Huge difference here. UCI's faculty has been ranked 11th, 10th, and most recently 7th in the nation for scholarly impact. Loyola did not make the list. which doesn't affect employment outcomes
-Bar passage rate not possible to compare as UCI hasn't graduated a class yet
-Clerkships: UCI grads have obtained clerkships at a phenomenally high rate (roughly 25% for the first class). Granted, this is partially a statistical artifact due to low class sizes for the first few years, but even if the rate dropped by half it would still be quite good. low class sizes + dean calling in every favor he can, might not hold up so well when class size is significantly larger and the dean has used up every favor he had
-Biglaw. I have access to both UCI's and Loyola's Smplicity clients. Loyola gets FAR fewer job postings. UCI has a very solid turnout for OCI, and many of my classmates have been offered summer associate positions.it's questionable how long this situation will last

Personally I chose UCI over Boston University (when it was ranked 22, not 26 like it is now because 4 spots on the rankings is an absolute game changer). Granted my decision involved a 15k/yr scholarship, but still.
If I were to be pessimistic, I'd say UCI will get a ranking between t20 and t30 but only because UCI managed to game the rankings for the first year or so, it won't last. Loyola isn't even t50.

To address the poster above, numbers for the most recent class (which was not offered a blanket scholarship) are only slightly lower than the numbers for the fist class. Qualifications for recent students are quite comparable. Link: http://www.law.uci.edu/prospective/cons ... #admission

167/164 LSAT and 3.75/3.4 GPA for 2009 vs. 167/162 LSAT and 3.68/3.29 GPA for 2012. Lower, but keep in mind that practically every school has seen comparable drops in recent years, including T10 schools.

Truth is, UCI may end up being a good school (in terms of employment), or it may not. Do you want to bet your career on it?

You do know that UCI graduated a class in May of 2012 and they placed #2 --right behind Stanford-- for California bar passage rate, right?

^^^ This. And if you don't think admissions affects employment, you're being silly. It affects the rankings. It affects how employers perceive the school. Same with faculty. You don't think it helps to have top scholars in their fields as references? It's not just the Dean who can "call in favors," after all (also, you don't think other schools do that? -_-a)

I'm not claiming UCI is a t10 school, but I chose it over BU and GWU and I'd do it again. I didn't even apply to Loyola, Hastings was a safety and I never considered it an alternative to UCI. People miss this because they're rooting for the school to fail, but us students who chose UCI were choosing between t20-30 schools (closer to 20) and not schools like Loyola.

By the way, how do you define "gaming" the rankings? Having good admissions statistics, employment outcomes, bar passage rates, faculty, etc.? I'll grant the Clerkships and student/faculty ratio will go down, I said that in the first place. Even with that, UCI won't be competing with Loyola for students unless Loyola is throwing out some decent scholarships.

[dingbat]

if you don't think admissions affects employment, you're being silly. It affects the rankings. It affects how employers perceive the school. Same with faculty. You don't think it helps to have top scholars in their fields as references? It's not just the Dean who can "call in favors," after all (also, you don't think other schools do that? -_-a) .

I think you're putting the cart before the horse. Employers currently treat UCI as a curiosity - that new school in California. Hopefully the current UCI grads deliver very impressive work, because soon the curiosity will wear off. Firms don't care about academic exellence, they care about how good a lawyer the school delivers. They know what to expect from a Stanford grad vs a USC grad vs a Loyola grad, at various class ranks, because they've had experience with hiring them. Soon, they'll have that same experience with UCI.
As for the school being ranked top 20, as so many UCI students keep spouting, that means being tied with USC and UCLA, no easy feat. Maybe UCI wil remain competitive with GW, BU, Emory and the like (which I doubt, because of USC/UCLA) but that would mean top 30, not top 20.

The way UCI can game the rankings in the first year or two is mostly teacher/student ratio - by having a very small initial class size (hasn't it grown considerably year over year?). Further, by giving exceptionally good scholarships for the first few years, they managed to attract higher calibre students, but the overall scholarship amount is declining.

I'm not rooting for the school to fail, I hope it'll succeed, I just wasn't willing to risk my career on it - in its initial years, at least , being able to get into UCI meant being able to get into a T14 (probably with some money). Currently, going to UCI means turning down USC/UCLA (though probably at a slightly higher cost) or at least BU/BC/GW/Emory/Fordham, all of which have a determinable track record and an existing alumni network. Why someone would gamble their own life on someone else's success is baffling to me

[BigZuck]

Every school in CA not named Berkeley or Stanford is struggling big time to get its grads full time lawyer jobs. This includes UCLA/USC. 60ish percent is not good enough. I wouldn't go to those schools without at least a half ride. I can't see justifying Loyola or UCI unless it was free or you had a job lined up after graduation. Just way too much of a risk.

OP, if your friend wants big law then the correct answer is neither. They need to go to UCLA or USC to have any real shot at that. A retake is in order.

[timbs4339]

The problem with UCI is there is no benefit to "getting in on the ground floor." UCI at free with 60 or 120 others to compete with is one thing. Dropping 200K on a UCI education with 180 others is quite another without the benefit of good employment outcomes. Then the school has to really convince you that a UCI student at median will have no problem getting AIII, biglaw, or PSLF, and I've seen nothing out of UCI that convinces me that Dean Chem really understands how legal hiring works. In fact, what I've seen is that he is totally clueless and thinks employers (except AIII judges) care about the quality of a legal faculty. This is preposterous and is not something I'd bet 200K on.

To the UCI poster above "I know several people with offers" is not a statistic. I'm sure the Loyola students posting ITT know people with offers at those very same firms.

Gaming the rankings is doing those things with the knowledge that your class profile, your scholarship awards, your employment outcomes, your bar passage rates, are not going to be that high in the future because your business model would be unsustainable. All schools game the rankings, but UCI has seemingly built their entire business model around it. UCI would have my blessing if Bill Gates gave them a billion dollars to run a free law school.