Georgetown & George Washington Forum

[1984]

Why is Georgetown ranked 7 places higher than George Washington but, according to LS Transparency, George Washington has better job placement statistics?

[cinephile]

Well, Georgetown has a million students. But, yeah, that does sound doubtful.

[bk1]

LST doesn't have enough data to remove the school funded jobs from the full time, long term legal jobs (which is the percentage that LST uses to rank schools). If you assume that it is the max possible, which is likely, you end up with scores of 65 for GW and 60 for GULC.

Why is this? It's not entirely clear. GULC students seem to take a disproportionate amount of JD advantage jobs (which aren't considered FT,LT legal jobs by LST). One theory is that GULC students are more likely to enter law school for the intent of doing something other than practicing law (e.g. doing policy work in DC). I believe that it's part of the reason and I think this is supported by the fact that GULC has a higher percentage of students with great outcomes (e.g. working at large law firms, clerking, etc) than GW does, which means that the bottom of GULC's class should not be struggling more than GW (though they may be struggling a similar amount). In any case, you have to make assumptions to interpret GULC's data and what assumptions you want to make are up to you. I think it's pretty safe to say that GULC is definitely a better school than GW by a decent margin.

[suralin]

Why is Georgetown ranked 7 places higher than George Washington but, according to LS Transparency, George Washington has better job placement statistics?

It's also because the USNWR ranking methodology isn't solely based on employment prospects/job placement...

[1984]

Thanks for the answers.

[jenesaislaw]

LST doesn't have enough data to remove the school funded jobs from the full time, long term legal jobs (which is the percentage that LST uses to rank schools). If you assume that it is the max possible, which is likely, you end up with scores of 65 for GW and 60 for GULC.

Why is this? It's not entirely clear. GULC students seem to take a disproportionate amount of JD advantage jobs (which aren't considered FT,LT legal jobs by LST). One theory is that GULC students are more likely to enter law school for the intent of doing something other than practicing law (e.g. doing policy work in DC). I believe that it's part of the reason and I think this is supported by the fact that GULC has a higher percentage of students with great outcomes (e.g. working at large law firms, clerking, etc) than GW does, which means that the bottom of GULC's class should not be struggling more than GW (though they may be struggling a similar amount). In any case, you have to make assumptions to interpret GULC's data and what assumptions you want to make are up to you. I think it's pretty safe to say that GULC is definitely a better school than GW by a decent margin.

This is a good answer, though I wouldn't say GULC is definitely a better school than GW. (I wouldn't say the opposite either, or anything else for that matter.)

I would just add that in boom times, GULC was placing less than 2% of its graduates in JD Advantage jobs. As such, I'd be cautious about reading much positive into the JDA outcomes, particularly because there's an inverse relationship between law school ranking and the % in JDA jobs. That is, as you go down the rankings, JDA jobs go up. Finally, JDA jobs have a higher percentage of people still seeking other jobs than the Bar Passage Required category.

ETA: there's also a chance that GULC is special, but I'd really like to see meaningful data on that before saying so.

[JCougar]

Why is Georgetown ranked 7 places higher than George Washington but, according to LS Transparency, George Washington has better job placement statistics?

You have to subtract 15% from George Washington's score due to it placing nearly 100 of its own graduates in school-funded "jobs" that it specifically structured to game the new placement stats (one-year to satisfy the "long-term" requirement).

I actually have a question for jenesaislaw--why not just subtract the school-funded "jobs" from each school's employment score? GW has really been deceiving a lot of people this cycle. If you're not sure how many are legit or not, it would seem to be better to err on the side of not counting them--thus forcing the school to justify their inclusion through the release of information.

[jenesaislaw]

Why is Georgetown ranked 7 places higher than George Washington but, according to LS Transparency, George Washington has better job placement statistics?

You have to subtract 15% from George Washington's score due to it placing nearly 100 of its own graduates in school-funded "jobs" that it specifically structured to game the new placement stats (one-year to satisfy the "long-term" requirement).

I actually have a question for jenesaislaw--why not just subtract the school-funded "jobs" from each school's employment score? GW has really been deceiving a lot of people this cycle. If you're not sure how many are legit or not, it would seem to be better to err on the side of not counting them--thus forcing the school to justify their inclusion through the release of information.

Because I don't have the luxury of punishing schools without knowing better. The school-funded category is not a subcategory of LT, FT legal jobs that can be subtracted from that category.

One thing we are considering is to provide a range for these schools. So GW's score would be 65.3%-80.7%. Sorting gets trickier, but it might be a better solution than the asterisk.

[bk1]

This is a good answer, though I wouldn't say GULC is definitely a better school than GW. (I wouldn't say the opposite either, or anything else for that matter.)

I would just add that in boom times, GULC was placing less than 2% of its graduates in JD Advantage jobs. As such, I'd be cautious about reading much positive into the JDA outcomes, particularly because there's an inverse relationship between law school ranking and the % in JDA jobs. That is, as you go down the rankings, JDA jobs go up. Finally, JDA jobs have a higher percentage of people still seeking other jobs than the Bar Passage Required category.

ETA: there's also a chance that GULC is special, but I'd really like to see meaningful data on that before saying so.

This is completely valid, esp re GULC's previous placement.

[nealric]

The NLJ big law placement numbers are much better for GULC. Also, GW may be skewed by its IP focus- if you are not patent bar eligible, it will not help you.

[Jose Reyes]

The NLJ big law placement numbers are much better for GULC. Also, GW may be skewed by its IP focus- if you are not patent bar eligible, it will not help you.

the placement numbers aren't as cut and dry as you're making them. GULC has by far the lowest placement in the T14 (around 40% into biglaw), and GW is I believe around 25%. Yea there's a difference there, but you'll probably get at least 20K a year from GW in a situation where GULC gives nothing. (Last year I got 25K/yr from GW when GULC gave nothing). If minimizing debt is important to someone, maybe they'll want to go GW's route.

[Lady Heather]

GULC has by far the lowest placement in the T14 (around 40% into biglaw)

You've got to keep in mind that a lot of people who don't want BIGLAW choose GULC. With the exception of one person (who is incredible awkward during interviews), everyone I know who applied for a 2L SA got one. IIRC, when I started at GULC, the only schools with a better LRAP were HYS (and, maybe, Berkeley).

[exitoptions]

Georgetown tends to cater to non-big law types. This is all anecdotal, but in my section I was one of maybe 10 people (out of ~115) who wanted big law. I think more ended up doing it, just because OCI is easier than PI/gov hiring processes, but I know that at least half of my section didn't even shoot for big law.

Also, the part timers tend to have jobs and are using the degree as a way to move up the ladder.

Edit: I was in the "alternative" curriculum, so probably not representative of the whole school, but it makes some difference.

[chipchip]

GULC has by far the lowest placement in the T14 (around 40% into biglaw)

According to an email from Dean Treanor to alums this week, the number of students getting summer associateships last year (Class of 2013) was 52%, up from 34% for the Class of 2011. Not sure if that's big law only, though given the figures I'd assume it's more likely than not.

[exitoptions]

GULC has by far the lowest placement in the T14 (around 40% into biglaw)

According to an email from Dean Treanor to alums this week, the number of students getting summer associateships last year (Class of 2013) was 52%, up from 34% for the Class of 2011. Not sure if that's big law only, though given the figures I'd assume it's more likely than not.

Can you send me the letter, I never got it.