Wake Forest vs. Washington and Lee Forum

[allthingsbruce]

I've received a full tuition scholarship to Washington and Lee and almost a full tuition scholarship to Wake Forest ($38k/year, tuition is a little over $39k/year) and can't even begin to decide between the two. I don't really have a certain city or state that I'm set on working in after school, but these are my top two choices (as of right now). For personal reasons I would rather be in NC, but it's not a deal breaker. I'm trying not to base all my decision-making on the USNWR rankings so I've tried doing some research, but as a first generation college student from the Midwest, it's been a little difficult. I'd like to consider everything about the two schools, including student life... I'm not sure I could handle living in a town as small as Lexington. Not that Winston-Salem is huge or anything, but Lexington is just so small. Any input on any aspect is appreciated. Also, I do plan on trying to visit the two schools at some point this spring, but I'd like to get a better idea right now.

[bluepenguin]

Is cost of living cheaper in Lexington? Also, while the WF scholarship is only 1k short of tuition, with increases in tuition that may be 5-8k over three years. Probably not enough to outweigh significant location preference or placement prospects, but not insignificant either.

[ndirish2010]

W&L would be my choice. Pretty solid deal actually. And Lexington is super cheap to live in.

[talesofyore]

W&L would be my choice. Pretty solid deal actually. And Lexington is super cheap to live in.

I'm curious about why you'd choose W&L. I have almost a similar situation with Wake and W&L, in that both of them leave me with pretty much the same out of pocket amount (~$8000). I prefer W&L, but wondered whether I should agonize over the choice a little bit more.

[dirtrida2]

Can those accepted post your numbers?

[ndirish2010]

W&L would be my choice. Pretty solid deal actually. And Lexington is super cheap to live in.

I'm curious about why you'd choose W&L. I have almost a similar situation with Wake and W&L, in that both of them leave me with pretty much the same out of pocket amount (~$8000). I prefer W&L, but wondered whether I should agonize over the choice a little bit more.

The schools are more or less peers (and if not, W&L is probably slightly better), and W&L is cheaper and in a cheaper CoL area (though W-S is pretty cheap too, thankfully, since I'm working there next year).

[allthingsbruce]

Both schools' websites claim that everything outside of tuition (room and board, books, fees, transportation, etc.) costs around $20k/year

[kuttlefish]

FWIW, I'm looking at a similar range of schools, but I'm a 0L so don't take anything I say too seriously...

Word is, the legal market in NC has all but imploded since it was mainly based on the banking industry. Wake doesn't hold much weight outside of NC and UNC does better in-state. Though there might be regional preferences.

W&L punches above it's weight for clerkships and still manages to squeeze on to the NLJ250 go to law school list each year (the only rankings that half-way matter). That said, it's still outside of the T20 so it's still a crap-shoot and you're going to have to work your ass off for an opportunity. Lexington's remoteness makes networking very difficult, but the alumni network is supposedly loyal.

If I were you, I'd also throw apps at W&M, George Mason, UNC and reach for Vanderbilt. All have a similar amount of prestige in the same circles and you might be able to play some of them off each other for more $$$ and/or lower stips. At least you'll have more options.

[allthingsbruce]

Yeah I applied to William and Mary and got in-state tuition plus a partial scholarship, not really anything to negotiate with. I applied to Vanderbilt and haven't heard back, but I also just got a call from UT-Austin saying I'm admitted (yet ND waitlisted me... bastards! )

[kuttlefish]

In that case, I would start to come up with reasons why you wouldn't want UT because that should definitely be your #1. Even at sticker, it's a league above all the other schools mentioned... especially if you want Texas Biglaw or have any ties to Texas.

[JayJones78]

FWIW, I'm looking at a similar range of schools, but I'm a 0L so don't take anything I say too seriously...

Word is, the legal market in NC has all but imploded since it was mainly based on the banking industry. Wake doesn't hold much weight outside of NC and UNC does better in-state. Though there might be regional preferences.

W&L punches above it's weight for clerkships and still manages to squeeze on to the NLJ250 go to law school list each year (the only rankings that half-way matter). That said, it's still outside of the T20 so it's still a crap-shoot and you're going to have to work your ass off for an opportunity. Lexington's remoteness makes networking very difficult, but the alumni network is supposedly loyal.

If I were you, I'd also throw apps at W&M, George Mason, UNC and reach for Vanderbilt. All have a similar amount of prestige in the same circles and you might be able to play some of them off each other for more $$$ and/or lower stips. At least you'll have more options.

Do you have a link to the NLJ250 and how to read it? How do I know how W&L places within the list? I tried to google NLJ250 but didn't get far. Thanks!

[PRgradBYU]

Can those accepted post your numbers?

Guess they didn't see this. I don't understand why so many people don't post their numbers in their profiles. It's incredibly helpful for everyone. And if people have less-than-satisfactory numbers (e.g. mine), it doesn't matter--you're anonymous.

[JayJones78]

Can those accepted post your numbers?

Guess they didn't see this. I don't understand why so many people don't post their numbers in their profiles. It's incredibly helpful for everyone. And if people have less-than-satisfactory numbers (e.g. mine), it doesn't matter--you're anonymous.

+1

[Shmoopy]

I got 40k per year from w&l and 30k per year fom wake. W&L seems like the better deal, though there is a top 60% stip. Also in at vandy, though scholarships aren't out yet. Anyone know if w&l or wake could potentially be used to negotiate up at vandy?

Numbers are 173/3.3.

[JayJones78]

Can those accepted post your numbers?

Guess they didn't see this. I don't understand why so many people don't post their numbers in their profiles. It's incredibly helpful for everyone. And if people have less-than-satisfactory numbers (e.g. mine), it doesn't matter--you're anonymous.

Just as a side note that I don't want to publish on the boards is that I don't understand why people are not shooting higher. In an app cycle like this I don't get why a guy who is 173/3.3 even as a non URM doesn't apply to at least 7-14 schools. Oh well... More spaces for us

[PRgradBYU]

Can those accepted post your numbers?

Guess they didn't see this. I don't understand why so many people don't post their numbers in their profiles. It's incredibly helpful for everyone. And if people have less-than-satisfactory numbers (e.g. mine), it doesn't matter--you're anonymous.

Just as a side note that I don't want to publish on the boards is that I don't understand why people are not shooting higher. In an app cycle like this I don't get why a guy who is 173/3.3 even as a non URM doesn't apply to at least 7-14 schools. Oh well... More spaces for us

No kidding, especially since fee waivers are generally available to those who ask for them. A few hundreds dollars can get you a quite a few applications.

[Circlewave]

I'm in at both. 163/3.61

25k/year from WF, Good Academic Progress stip
15k/year from W&L, top 2/3-ish? I don't remember.

W&L is my top choice by far, because I want to clerk, but I don't think I could justify the added expense while steering myself towards a clerking income. Seems like the conventional wisdom is that Wake is a good choice if you know you'd like to end up in NC, but don't go expecting NYC.

[Yukos]

A 3.3/173 is T14 secure if he EDs. Not sure why he'd consider either of these schools.

[suralin]

A 3.3/173 is T14 secure if he EDs. Not sure why he'd consider either of these schools.

[allthingsbruce]

Can those accepted post your numbers?

Guess they didn't see this. I don't understand why so many people don't post their numbers in their profiles. It's incredibly helpful for everyone. And if people have less-than-satisfactory numbers (e.g. mine), it doesn't matter--you're anonymous.

Just as a side note that I don't want to publish on the boards is that I don't understand why people are not shooting higher. In an app cycle like this I don't get why a guy who is 173/3.3 even as a non URM doesn't apply to at least 7-14 schools. Oh well... More spaces for us

My bad, just got a profile this week. 167/3.55.
Also, I'm from Missouri, but that doesn't really matter.

[Shmoopy]

All you guys talking about my numbers, I did apply to several t14s, just haven't heard back from them. I never said I'm planning on going to either of these schools, so don't worry about it. I probably won't. I applied to a broad range of schools to see what kind of scholarships I would get. That said, if vandy would match 40k, I'd be pretty interested. So does anyone have any insight on vandy matching scholarships fom w&l?

[talesofyore]

FWIW, I'm looking at a similar range of schools, but I'm a 0L so don't take anything I say too seriously...

Word is, the legal market in NC has all but imploded since it was mainly based on the banking industry. Wake doesn't hold much weight outside of NC and UNC does better in-state. Though there might be regional preferences.

W&L punches above it's weight for clerkships and still manages to squeeze on to the NLJ250 go to law school list each year (the only rankings that half-way matter). That said, it's still outside of the T20 so it's still a crap-shoot and you're going to have to work your ass off for an opportunity. Lexington's remoteness makes networking very difficult, but the alumni network is supposedly loyal.

If I were you, I'd also throw apps at W&M, George Mason, UNC and reach for Vanderbilt. All have a similar amount of prestige in the same circles and you might be able to play some of them off each other for more $$$ and/or lower stips. At least you'll have more options.

Do you have a link to the NLJ250 and how to read it? How do I know how W&L places within the list? I tried to google NLJ250 but didn't get far. Thanks!

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... 0025093058

TLS Post about it: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=179008

With regards to not posting my numbers on my profile, this is what initially led to that decision:
"So, rather than do a traditional "Ask Asha" post this round, I thought I would answer some of the questions -- and correct some of the off-base answers -- which have been circulating in the online forums. Yes, we do read them. And yes, it's not hard to figure out who some of you are. Please be on your best cyber behavior. (And by the way, you guys have way too much time on your hands.)"
http://blogs.law.yale.edu/blogs/admissi ... wered.aspx

[cahwc12]

A 3.3/173 is T14 secure if he EDs. Not sure why he'd consider either of these schools.

ED T14 leaves him paying sticker unless it's NU. 173 could possibly net him $25-30k/yr discount at GULC, and some money at Mich/Duke.

I think W&L with free tuition is a better deal than anything else OP will get with those numbers (and I'm actually pretty surprised he got it, because W&L isn't too nice to splitters).

UVA at sticker (you'd get in ED) vs W&L free is not much of a decision to me. W&L is a good school with much lower COL. Also UVA scares me because (disclaimer: anecdote) my friend from UG went there, was one of the 17% of the class that went in 1-year school-funded NPO gigs, and now is having trouble finding gainful employment. Lucky for her though, I think she went on something close to a full ride.

Just ask yourself if it's $250k for 80% chance at a job or $10-30k for 50% chance at a job. I think for me, I'd choose the latter.

(Also I wouldn't give WF much consideration with W&L offering similar aid, but that's just me and it depends where you want to work).

[Shmoopy]

A 3.3/173 is T14 secure if he EDs. Not sure why he'd consider either of these schools.

ED T14 leaves him paying sticker unless it's NU. 173 could possibly net him $25-30k/yr discount at GULC, and some money at Mich/Duke.

I think W&L with free tuition is a better deal than anything else OP will get with those numbers (and I'm actually pretty surprised he got it, because W&L isn't too nice to splitters).

UVA at sticker (you'd get in ED) vs W&L free is not much of a decision to me. W&L is a good school with much lower COL. Also UVA scares me because (disclaimer: anecdote) my friend from UG went there, was one of the 17% of the class that went in 1-year school-funded NPO gigs, and now is having trouble finding gainful employment. Lucky for her though, I think she went on something close to a full ride.

Just ask yourself if it's $250k for 80% chance at a job or $10-30k for 50% chance at a job. I think for me, I'd choose the latter.

(Also I wouldn't give WF much consideration with W&L offering similar aid, but that's just me and it depends where you want to work).

I got wait listed at duke, i imagine because of the low gpa. Haven't heard from UVA yet. I hope you're wrong about the sticker part, but you're probably right. I'm not going anywhere at sticker.

[djgrant]

I know I'm seeing this forum topic a little late, but I am in the same situation as well.
40k at W&L, 37k @ W&M, and 38k@ wake ~full tuition at least the first year

I am leaning away from W&L because I feel like there stips are a little more intimidating. W&M wants me to maintain a "B" average but there use a "+/-" grading system so there average is higher than a B and only 1 person out of 42 lost their scholly last year. But wake's stip is just maintain good academic standing.

I'm visiting them all in a month or so, hopefully I'll be able to make up my mind soon

My numbers are 166/3.86 - engineering

Is there any way to negotiate them increasing the scholarship each year to match the tuition increases?