Is UVA the Worst/Riskiest T14 School? Forum

[scifiguy]

I've read a bunch of posts about how tough grading is at UVA and also that they had a lot of students take on school-funded fellowships, due to not finding jobs.

Are the employment statistics + tough grading somehow worse at UVA than the rest of the T14?

Is it kind of the "worst" or riskiest T14? Sorry if "worst" comes across as offensive. Wasn't sure what word to use. But jsut asking from a perspective of somenoe looking at the benefits and negatives of various T14s.

Apppreciate it!

[Yukos]

Other people can speak to the particular issues of UVA but there's little doubt that GULC is the riskiest T14. It has a huge class size, feeds the most competitive legal market in the country and has the poorest job prospects of the T14 (obviously the first two factors contribute to the third). I have a good friend who got top 10% and was lucky enough to get a good job, but he was terrified during OCI and had friends with similar grades who struck out. I think most of TLS would advise against GULC at sticker, while for other T14 law schools it might be more 50-50 go/don't go at sticker among TLS posters.

[eric922]

Other people can speak to the particular issues of UVA but there's little doubt that GULC is the riskiest T14. It has a huge class size, feeds the most competitive legal market in the country and has the poorest job prospects of the T14 (obviously the first two factors contribute to the third). I have a good friend who got top 10% and was lucky enough to get a good job, but he was terrified during OCI and had friends with similar grades who struck out. I think most of TLS would advise against GULC at sticker, while for other T14 law schools it might be more 50-50 go/don't go at sticker among TLS posters.

On the topic of GULC does anyone know why it is rated higher than Cornell in USNews if its employment stats are so much poorer?

[Bronck]

Other people can speak to the particular issues of UVA but there's little doubt that GULC is the riskiest T14. It has a huge class size, feeds the most competitive legal market in the country and has the poorest job prospects of the T14 (obviously the first two factors contribute to the third). I have a good friend who got top 10% and was lucky enough to get a good job, but he was terrified during OCI and had friends with similar grades who struck out. I think most of TLS would advise against GULC at sticker, while for other T14 law schools it might be more 50-50 go/don't go at sticker among TLS posters.

On the topic of GULC does anyone know why it is rated higher than Cornell in USNews if it's employment stats are so much poorer?

Because USNRW rankings aren't based entirely on employment statistics

[Yukos]

Other people can speak to the particular issues of UVA but there's little doubt that GULC is the riskiest T14. It has a huge class size, feeds the most competitive legal market in the country and has the poorest job prospects of the T14 (obviously the first two factors contribute to the third). I have a good friend who got top 10% and was lucky enough to get a good job, but he was terrified during OCI and had friends with similar grades who struck out. I think most of TLS would advise against GULC at sticker, while for other T14 law schools it might be more 50-50 go/don't go at sticker among TLS posters.

On the topic of GULC does anyone know why it is rated higher than Cornell in USNews if it's employment stats are so much poorer?

Because USNRW rankings aren't based entirely on employment statistics

GULC has an AMAZING faculty, and is strong in every other category (including good medians for such a low T14) except employment prospects. There's a lot of great things about the school and it's leagues beyond any non-T14 IMO, but without a substantial scholarship it's an imprudent financial decision.

[Tom Joad]

Other people can speak to the particular issues of UVA but there's little doubt that GULC is the riskiest T14. It has a huge class size, feeds the most competitive legal market in the country and has the poorest job prospects of the T14 (obviously the first two factors contribute to the third). I have a good friend who got top 10% and was lucky enough to get a good job, but he was terrified during OCI and had friends with similar grades who struck out. I think most of TLS would advise against GULC at sticker, while for other T14 law schools it might be more 50-50 go/don't go at sticker among TLS posters.

On the topic of GULC does anyone know why it is rated higher than Cornell in USNews if it's employment stats are so much poorer?

Higher median LSAT I would imagine.

But as for OP, UVA is just a little different than lots of its peers.

CONS: the closest big market is DC, which is super competitive and firms have high standards.
Class size is bigger among T14s (not a total bad thing though. I actually think it is a strength in that there are lots of alums that can help you out).
Charlottesville is so small it is hard to network with attorneys that can help you in the future.

PROS: Lots of UVA students are from the South and want to go back there to work or find jobs easier where they came from. Lots of those firms are smaller, but are not necessarily bad places to work. Lots of these firms won't show up in Law School Transparency's reports or be classified by everybody as biglaw.

MIXED BAG: The grading curve just requires the median of class to be a certain number, and doesn't require profs to give a set number of each grade. Some people don't like it and some people do.

[20141023]

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[scifiguy]

Simple: Because the new methodology of counting "employment" as full-time, JD-required positions will not begin taking effect until the 2014 rankings. The 2013 rankings are using the "any employment counts as employment" methodology, under which GULC has a 96.0% employment rate, and Cornell has a 96.9% employment rate. However, under the new methodology, these numbers will look more like 62.4% (GULC) vs 76.1% (Cornell).

UVA isn't as risky because even under the new methodology, it still has a 94.7% employment rate, of which up to 17% comes from graduates hired by the school.... but even then, that's still a 77.7% employment rate, which is better than both GULC and Cornell.

Interesting. Thanks.

So, people would agree that Georgetown is the worst/riskiest of the T14 then? ...at 40% unemployment.

[20141023]

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[nebula666]

Interesting. Thanks.

So, people would agree that Georgetown is the worst/riskiest of the T14 then? ...at 40% unemployment.

Only 5.4% are currently looking for work. 75% have long term full time employment. The rest are in short term / low paying jobs.

[dingbat]

So, people would agree that Georgetown is the worst/riskiest of the T14 then? ...at 40% underemployment.

and even then the figure isn't fair (not all JD preferred jobs are bad outcomes)

[curious66]

So, people would agree that Georgetown is the worst/riskiest of the T14 then? ...at 40% unemployment.

Yes... I think that is the consensus.

Hey Regulus -- as usual, your post are amazing. Any idea what the new methodology would do Duke's or Michigan's employment statistics?

[scifiguy]

So, people would agree that Georgetown is the worst/riskiest of the T14 then? ...at 40% underemployment.

and even then the figure isn't fair (not all JD preferred jobs are bad outcomes)

Why did you cross out the underemployment and say it was unemployment and then say that the figure is better than it is?

I would have figured you would have said the it's worse (I think unemployment is worse than underemployment).

[dingbat]

So, people would agree that Georgetown is the worst/riskiest of the T14 then? ...at 40% underemployment.

and even then the figure isn't fair (not all JD preferred jobs are bad outcomes)

Why did you cross out the underemployment and say it was unemployment and then say that the figure is better than it is?

I would have figured you would have said the it's worse (I think unemployment is worse than underemployment).

Bad editing- I meant to bold the piece I added, but accudentally did strike through

[Law Sauce]

No. UVA is a great school with great opportunities. Probably about equal to the rest of MVPB.

People on here don't really get that employment is about the person and not just the school + rank. All T-14s give you a solid shot at big law, its up to you to get it. If you couldnt get it from Cornell, you probably couldnt have gotten it from NYU. (disclaimer: of course their is some small advantage from going to NYU over Cornell, but not really all that much. Most students that want biglaw get it from all t14s, except maybe GULC - not sure about how true the gloom on them is. Of course, no one is guaranteed anything short of YS.)

[20141023]

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[dingbat]

^they publicize their methodology. I'd link, but I'm on my phone

[20141023]

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[scifiguy]

Any speculation on why Georgetown stinks on employment?

I know their class is huge: 600 or so.

And they are the bottom of the T14 ranking-wise. But is there some other thing about their reputation that employers don't like?

[20141023]

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[dingbat]

No. UVA is a great school with great opportunities. Probably about equal to the rest of MVPB.

People on here don't really get that employment is about the person and not just the school + rank. All T-14s give you a solid shot at big law, its up to you to get it. If you couldnt get it from Cornell, you probably couldnt have gotten it from NYU. (disclaimer: of course their is some small advantage from going to NYU over Cornell, but not really all that much. Most students that want biglaw get it from all t14s, except maybe GULC - not sure about how true the gloom on them is. Of course, no one is guaranteed anything short of YS.)

Not entirely true, not entirely wrong. Schools have estanloshed ties with firms/markets, which make certain transitions easier. For example, Columbia is very well connected to NYC biglaw and has a strong advantage there compared to eg berkeley, which will have an advantage in San Francisco. Cornell has an advantage over UVA in NT. vConsidering the topography of the legal world, this translates to an advantage iro biglaw.

How big an advantage is debatable, but to deny it is a fallacy

[Dmini7]

Any speculation on why Georgetown stinks on employment?

I know their class is huge: 600 or so.

And they are the bottom of the T14 ranking-wise. But is there some other thing about their reputation that employers don't like?

It is really hard to say whether or not employers do not like them. I know people on this website view it as a diploma mill, but I can't say for sure if employers do too. I will say Georgetown has more prestige out west than schools like UVA from the ones I have spoken too (which I do not really find surprising).

[dingbat]

Any speculation on why Georgetown stinks on employment?

I know their class is huge: 600 or so.

And they are the bottom of the T14 ranking-wise. But is there some other thing about their reputation that employers don't like?

Part of it is that their home market is incredibly competitive and they'll lose out to HYS more often than not. There's also the big class size. Additionally, I think that DC has more good JD-Preferred jobs than anywhere else, and that those attract a fair number of Georgetown grads. The problem is that there's no way for us to parse the JD-preferred jobs, to know which ones are desirable and which ones are a last-resort.

[curious66]

Yes – it will hurt them, but the thing is that everyone will be hurting under the new method… it just depends on how much. Also, because US News doesn’t release how they calculate the data, I am not sure how to apply their methodology. By this I mean that I do not know if, in order to achieve a full 18% (4% for employment right after graduation, 14% for employment after 9 months after graduation) score for the “employment” category, whether they are using a curve or if they are simply just going off of 100%. (For example, does a school need to have a 100% employment rate to get the full 18%, or do they just need to have the highest employment rate to get the full 18%?)

If we assume that it is based off of 100% employment rate and not on a curve, (and if we use the current LST numbers as data for 2014), the T14 will all be affected in the following way. (This example is only for the 14% because this is looking at employment after 9 months):

Yale --- 2013: 91.8% (12.85%), 2014: 87.8% (12.29%), Difference: -0.56%
Stanford --- 2013: 97.1% (13.59%), 2014: 91.1% (12.75%), Difference: -0.84%
Harvard --- 2013: 94.6% (13.24%), 2014: 89.9% (12.59%), Difference: -0.66%
Columbia --- 2013: 96.5% (13.51%), 2014: 94.1% (13.17%), Difference: -0.34%
Chicago --- 2013: 97.9% (13.71%), 2014: 88.2% (12.35%), Difference: -1.36%
NYU --- 2013: 96.6% (13.52%), 2014: 89.3% (12.5%), Difference: -1.02%
Berkeley --- 2013: 93.6% (13.1%), 2014: 80% (11.2%), Difference: -1.9%
Penn --- 2013: 96% (13.44%), 2014: 83.9% (11.75%), Difference: -1.69%
Virginia --- 2013: 98.1% (13.73%), 2014: 94.7% (13.26%), Difference: -0.48%
Michigan --- 2013: 92.2% (12.91%), 2014: 75.5% (10.57%), Difference: -2.34%
Duke --- 2013: 94.8% (13.27%), 2014: 82.1% (11.49%), Difference: -1.78%
Northwestern --- 2013: 94% (13.16%), 2014: 76.3% (10.68%), Difference: -2.48%
Georgetown --- 2013: 96% (13.44%), 2014: 62.4% (8.74%), Difference: -4.7%
Cornell --- 2013: 96.9% (13.57%), 2014: 76.1% (10.65%), Difference: -2.91%

The difference is big enough at Georgetown that I predict that they will drop to (at least) the 14th spot in the 2014 rankings.

THANKS

[Chaucer1343]

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