ND v. WLU Forum

[rooneydbc]

For someone who wants to practice IP law in NYC, Notre Dame with $15k or Washington and Lee with $35k. I realize Fordham would seem like a better choice, but they have not opened up their coffers to me, for some reason, and I will not pay sticker price to go to Fordham (saying this as a current Fordham undergrad).

Thanks!

[nebula666]

Notre Dame is arguably the most national non-T14. They place about 8% in New York and 20% in Biglaw. WLU places 1/3 of it's students in VA and 6.2% in New York with 12% in Biglaw.

I think given these two options, ND wins but you should retake.

[dingbat]

For someone who wants to practice IP law in NYC, Notre Dame with $15k or Washington and Lee with $35k. I realize Fordham would seem like a better choice, but they have not opened up their coffers to me, for some reason, and I will not pay sticker price to go to Fordham (saying this as a current Fordham undergrad).

Thanks!

Good. (saying this as a Fordham 1L)

either school should give you more or less the same shot at practicing in NY, which is, not particularly good, but not particularly bad either. If you weren't IP, you'd probably need to be top 15% at either to have a chance. IP is more forgiving, but I still can't imagine being competitive at median.

[ndirish2010]

I would not come to NDLS at that price if your goal is NYC. With a 3.5 here, you'll get NYC callbacks, but without any ties to secondary markets (if you're a Fordham undergrad, I'd imagine you're from the tri-state area- I am too), NDLS is risky. W&L for basically slightly above cost of living is not a terrible option.

What are your numbers?

[rooneydbc]

I would not come to NDLS at that price if your goal is NYC. With a 3.5 here, you'll get NYC callbacks, but without any ties to secondary markets (if you're a Fordham undergrad, I'd imagine you're from the tri-state area- I am too), NDLS is risky. W&L for basically slightly above cost of living is not a terrible option.

What are your numbers?

3.15/166.

As you guessed, I am from the tri-state area, which is why I want to come back to NYC after I'm finished with law school. I was pretty set on NDLS, because of its national reach, until I heard from W&L and saw that I'd be paying relatively little to attend. I thought I'd end up going to Fordham at the beginning of this process (didn't think my numbers would get me into NDLS, especially not with scholarship), but now I'm pretty much done with Fordham, since it is in no way worth $225k. I got $28k from Yeshiva also, $13k from William and Mary, and $20k Northeastern, but I don't think they would be worth it, if I have both NDLS and W&L giving me money. Still waiting to hear from BU, BC, Emory, and the pipe dreams (Columbia, NYU, Cornell). Got waitlisted at GWU and UMN, but I'm not really thinking about them at the moment. Notre Dame is giving me trouble because, as an extremely Irish male from New York who has been to Notre Dame multiple times for football games, it has a special place in my heart. If only we were going to law school when IP law jobs were falling from the sky.

[ndirish2010]

Believe me I understand the attraction that ND holds, I love it here and wanted to be here since I was a little kid. It's just tough to make that investment when your goal is to come back to NY and you don't have any ties in markets where NDLS is strong. That was my problem at OCI (I wanted to stay in the midwest but I actually ended up having the most success as far as CBs are concerned through mailing in NYC). W&L is probably going to be a better option for you, but I would retake and try to get up to 170 and ED UVA. You will have the option of W&L again because they love 166s, regardless of what you get on retake.

[tracy77]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I would not come to NDLS at that price if your goal is NYC. With a 3.5 here, you'll get NYC callbacks, but without any ties to secondary markets (if you're a Fordham undergrad, I'd imagine you're from the tri-state area- I am too), NDLS is risky. W&L for basically slightly above cost of living is not a terrible option.

What are your numbers?

3.15/166.

As you guessed, I am from the tri-state area, which is why I want to come back to NYC after I'm finished with law school. I was pretty set on NDLS, because of its national reach, until I heard from W&L and saw that I'd be paying relatively little to attend. I thought I'd end up going to Fordham at the beginning of this process (didn't think my numbers would get me into NDLS, especially not with scholarship), but now I'm pretty much done with Fordham, since it is in no way worth $225k. I got $28k from Yeshiva also, $13k from William and Mary, and $20k Northeastern, but I don't think they would be worth it, if I have both NDLS and W&L giving me money. Still waiting to hear from BU, BC, Emory, and the pipe dreams (Columbia, NYU, Cornell). Got waitlisted at GWU and UMN, but I'm not really thinking about them at the moment. Notre Dame is giving me trouble because, as an extremely Irish male from New York who has been to Notre Dame multiple times for football games, it has a special place in my heart. If only we were going to law school when IP law jobs were falling from the sky.

[dingbat]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

[ndirish2010]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

Emory is definitely not better than ND for NYC. It is probably worse. You gave the 15% number for ND, I don't think it would be higher for Emory.

Basically, outside the T18, the order for NYC would be Fordham>BU>BC>GW>ND>WUSTL/UIUC/UMN/Emory, I think.

[dingbat]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

Emory is definitely not better than ND for NYC. It is probably worse. You gave the 15% number for ND, I don't think it would be higher for Emory.

Basically, outside the T18, the order for NYC would be Fordham>BU>BC>GW>ND>WUSTL/UIUC/UMN/Emory, I think.

Typo. I don't think ND is any better than WUSTL/UMN/Emory/IUIC (maybe add W&L or W&M) and I don't think BU/BC/GW are all that different from each other.
At any other schools, anything less than top 10% won't do (maybe just below at 'Dozo or Brooklyn)

[rooneydbc]

Thanks for all the responses. Unfortunately the 166 was my second go around, after getting a 165 on the first test (you can imagine how pleased I was to spend all of that time studying only to go up by 1 point because I bombed the reading comp section for some odd reason).

The debt problem, for me, is a bit of a lower priority than it might be for some people because I've been lucky enough to come out of undergrad with no debt. I'm really looking for whatever will get me the best call backs in New York while at the same time not costing me a quarter of a million dollars (looking at you, Fordham Law). Notre Dame would still be under $150k, which, to me, isn't that terrible, and W&L would be under $100k which is actually less than I ever thought I'd be spending on law school. I'm going to have to wait and see where else I get in and what other offers I get. Maybe I'll be able to shake a bit more money out of some of the other schools.

Washington and Lee does seem like a great place, but the name recognition of NDLS is going to be in the back of my mind the whole time.

ndirish2010: My one concern about Notre Dame is the political environment. I'm a hardcore Democrat (elected committeeman, worked for a former Democratic President, etc., etc.) and realize that ND is pretty far right on the spectrum, especially for a New Yorker. Is the environment at NDLS comfortable for liberals, or are they a maligned minority?

[dingbat]

The debt problem, for me, is a bit of a lower priority than it might be for some people because I've been lucky enough to come out of undergrad with no debt. I'm really looking for whatever will get me the best call backs in New York while at the same time not costing me a quarter of a million dollars (looking at you, Fordham Law). Notre Dame would still be under $150k, which, to me, isn't that terrible, and W&L would be under $100k which is actually less than I ever thought I'd be spending on law school. I'm going to have to wait and see where else I get in and what other offers I get. Maybe I'll be able to shake a bit more money out of some of the other schools.

Fordham is the best shot at NY biglaw outside the T14. That's a fact.
At sticker, it'll also cost a quarter million dollars, and not many will argue that that's reasonable (well 300 attending without aid, and plenty more who wish they could might add up to "many")

Notre Dame and W&L both give you a really small chance at NY biglaw, so the real question is, would you rather spend $100-$150k for a 10-15% chance, or $250k for a 20-25% chance?

[letsgoirish]

In no way are BC, BU, or GW better for big law in NYC than Notre Dame. Those schools are intensely region-centric and their OCI programs will undoubtedly reflect that. Myth debunked.

I also faced a decision between W&M and ND, among other schools. I chose Notre Dame for the national brand, and have big law in NYC (obtained via ND OCI) with 3.39 gpa. NYC is easily obtainable for you with a decent GPA given your geographic ties, W&M is going to push you south and make you more attractive in the mid-atlantic region. You need only be proactive in your job search if you want NYC. Myth debunked.

If you want to come to ND, you won't be the only New Yorker here. Take the money, get good grades, interview well. God loves the Irish.

[bcsum00]

ndirish2010: My one concern about Notre Dame is the political environment. I'm a hardcore Democrat (elected committeeman, worked for a former Democratic President, etc., etc.) and realize that ND is pretty far right on the spectrum, especially for a New Yorker. Is the environment at NDLS comfortable for liberals, or are they a maligned minority?

NDLS 2L offering my two cents: Very few people care about your political affiliations around here. This is the only law school I have attended and perhaps we have a higher demographic of conservatives, but I do not think it would impede your ability to be happy here. Law school is about learning the law and finding a job. Everything else is secondary.

As for trying to get back to NYC, if you hustle and network then you can get back to NYC. In my class, I can think of at least 10 people (some with ties and others without) that are headed to NYC "biglaw." I would have to imagine, if you have a true IP background and you aren't an alien that you can get back to NYC via networking**

That being said, your OCI opportunities for NYC biglaw are very limited. We get Jones Day and WC. You have to really put yourself out there and network with ND / NDLS alums.

**As long as you are above median.

[dingbat]

In no way are BC, BU, or GW better for big law in NYC than Notre Dame. Those schools are intensely region-centric and their OCI programs will undoubtedly reflect that. Myth debunked.

Got anything to back that up?

[jstr00az]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

Why merely guesstimate? Why not actually look at the numbers to get a sense of whether your guesstimate is full of sh*t? Someone working in NY would be working at a firm of 250 or more lawyers. (No one goes to NY to work at a mid-sized or small law firm as a starting lawyer.)

So looking at the job characteristics of 2011 graduates is a good proxy to finding out just how likely it is to get a job in any larger firm, let alone a firm in NYC.

In 2011, GWU placed just 18 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, UMN placed just 9 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, Emory placed just 15 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

Then you can see which states the school sends its graduates to get kind of a proxy. Note, however, that since a lot of New Yorkers go to schools all over and then return to NY, that wouldn't exactly indicate they all went to NY for good employment opportunities.

Finally, the guesstimate of "top 1/3, etc. etc" is practically useless from a decision making process. Grades in law school don't correlate to effort or desire, or even smarts. While they are not arbitrary, it's not like you can bank on being in top whatever.

[tracy77]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

Why merely guesstimate? Why not actually look at the numbers to get a sense of whether your guesstimate is full of sh*t? Someone working in NY would be working at a firm of 250 or more lawyers. (No one goes to NY to work at a mid-sized or small law firm as a starting lawyer.)

So looking at the job characteristics of 2011 graduates is a good proxy to finding out just how likely it is to get a job in any larger firm, let alone a firm in NYC.

In 2011, GWU placed just 18 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, UMN placed just 9 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, Emory placed just 15 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

Then you can see which states the school sends its graduates to get kind of a proxy. Note, however, that since a lot of New Yorkers go to schools all over and then return to NY, that wouldn't exactly indicate they all went to NY for good employment opportunities.

Finally, the guesstimate of "top 1/3, etc. etc" is practically useless from a decision making process. Grades in law school don't correlate to effort or desire, or even smarts. While they are not arbitrary, it's not like you can bank on being in top whatever.

How about ND and WUSL?

[jstr00az]

In no way are BC, BU, or GW better for big law in NYC than Notre Dame. Those schools are intensely region-centric and their OCI programs will undoubtedly reflect that. Myth debunked.

Got anything to back that up?

They're all equally bad at NYC big law.... some slightly worse than others, but none of them are good bets for NYC big law. Go look at lawschooltransparency.com numbers for NY and for BigLaw. The schools are placing approx. 15 percent or less in 2011 in BigLaw in ANY city.

[tracy77]

ndirish2010: My one concern about Notre Dame is the political environment. I'm a hardcore Democrat (elected committeeman, worked for a former Democratic President, etc., etc.) and realize that ND is pretty far right on the spectrum, especially for a New Yorker. Is the environment at NDLS comfortable for liberals, or are they a maligned minority?

NDLS 2L offering my two cents: Very few people care about your political affiliations around here. This is the only law school I have attended and perhaps we have a higher demographic of conservatives, but I do not think it would impede your ability to be happy here. Law school is about learning the law and finding a job. Everything else is secondary.

As for trying to get back to NYC, if you hustle and network then you can get back to NYC. In my class, I can think of at least 10 people (some with ties and others without) that are headed to NYC "biglaw." I would have to imagine, if you have a true IP background and you aren't an alien that you can get back to NYC via networking**

That being said, your OCI opportunities for NYC biglaw are very limited. We get Jones Day and WC. You have to really put yourself out there and network with ND / NDLS alums.

**As long as you are above median.

Hi bcsum00, I'm considering ND as my top choice so I do wish to learn more about it. As you mentioned, probably the chance for biglaw in NYC is pretty limited for ND. How about big laws in Chicago? As I understand, Chicago rather than NYC is the main career target for ND.

Thanks!

[Tiago Splitter]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

Why merely guesstimate? Why not actually look at the numbers to get a sense of whether your guesstimate is full of sh*t? Someone working in NY would be working at a firm of 250 or more lawyers. (No one goes to NY to work at a mid-sized or small law firm as a starting lawyer.)

So looking at the job characteristics of 2011 graduates is a good proxy to finding out just how likely it is to get a job in any larger firm, let alone a firm in NYC.

In 2011, GWU placed just 18 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, UMN placed just 9 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, Emory placed just 15 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

Then you can see which states the school sends its graduates to get kind of a proxy. Note, however, that since a lot of New Yorkers go to schools all over and then return to NY, that wouldn't exactly indicate they all went to NY for good employment opportunities.

Finally, the guesstimate of "top 1/3, etc. etc" is practically useless from a decision making process. Grades in law school don't correlate to effort or desire, or even smarts. While they are not arbitrary, it's not like you can bank on being in top whatever.

This post just affirms dingbat's guesstimate. As to your last point, it's true that one can't bank on being in any part of the class but knowing how deep employers will go does help when deciding between schools. Obviously, no one should go to any of the schools discussed in this thread if they are looking to end up in NYC BigLaw.

[jstr00az]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

Why merely guesstimate? Why not actually look at the numbers to get a sense of whether your guesstimate is full of sh*t? Someone working in NY would be working at a firm of 250 or more lawyers. (No one goes to NY to work at a mid-sized or small law firm as a starting lawyer.)

So looking at the job characteristics of 2011 graduates is a good proxy to finding out just how likely it is to get a job in any larger firm, let alone a firm in NYC.

In 2011, GWU placed just 18 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, UMN placed just 9 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, Emory placed just 15 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

Then you can see which states the school sends its graduates to get kind of a proxy. Note, however, that since a lot of New Yorkers go to schools all over and then return to NY, that wouldn't exactly indicate they all went to NY for good employment opportunities.

Finally, the guesstimate of "top 1/3, etc. etc" is practically useless from a decision making process. Grades in law school don't correlate to effort or desire, or even smarts. While they are not arbitrary, it's not like you can bank on being in top whatever.

How about ND and WUSL?

Visit http://www.lstscorereports.com/

ND = Approx. 9 percent in BigLaw (250 lawyers or more) in any city.

WUSTL - Approx. 14 percent in BigLaw in any city. I would assume mostly in St. Louis. It's unclear how many went to NYC, but it's under 8 percent. Based on those numbers, it's probably close to zero.

[jstr00az]

I've got waiting list from GWU too. How's the chance to work in NY for GWU and UMN? How about Emory?

I'd guesstimate top 1/3 from GW, top 15% from UMN and top 25% from Emory to have a chance, roughly speaking, though that's probably very generous

Why merely guesstimate? Why not actually look at the numbers to get a sense of whether your guesstimate is full of sh*t? Someone working in NY would be working at a firm of 250 or more lawyers. (No one goes to NY to work at a mid-sized or small law firm as a starting lawyer.)

So looking at the job characteristics of 2011 graduates is a good proxy to finding out just how likely it is to get a job in any larger firm, let alone a firm in NYC.

In 2011, GWU placed just 18 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, UMN placed just 9 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

In 2011, Emory placed just 15 percent of its graduates in law firms of 250 or more in any city.

Then you can see which states the school sends its graduates to get kind of a proxy. Note, however, that since a lot of New Yorkers go to schools all over and then return to NY, that wouldn't exactly indicate they all went to NY for good employment opportunities.

Finally, the guesstimate of "top 1/3, etc. etc" is practically useless from a decision making process. Grades in law school don't correlate to effort or desire, or even smarts. While they are not arbitrary, it's not like you can bank on being in top whatever.

This post just affirms dingbat's guesstimate. As to your last point, it's true that one can't bank on being in any part of the class but knowing how deep employers will go does help when deciding between schools. Obviously, no one should go to any of the schools discussed in this thread if they are looking to end up in NYC BigLaw.

No it doesn't "affirm" (by which I think you mean "confirm") his quesstimate. He guesstimate was based on bullshit about "top this" and "top that". Why not look at actual numbers that answer the question about how well these schools do. You can't predict your success in law school - everyone is trying to get good grades and is reasonably smart. You can make estimates based on past school performance, and for all three of those schools, it's not good in NYC.

[dingbat]

In no way are BC, BU, or GW better for big law in NYC than Notre Dame. Those schools are intensely region-centric and their OCI programs will undoubtedly reflect that. Myth debunked.

Got anything to back that up?

They're all equally bad at NYC big law.... some slightly worse than others, but none of them are good bets for NYC big law. Go look at lawschooltransparency.com numbers for NY and for BigLaw. The schools are placing approx. 15 percent or less in 2011 in BigLaw in ANY city.

I look at NLJ250 data for biglaw employment:

BC 21.75%
Fordham 19.58%
BU 17.84%
GW 17.76%
ND 13.68%

According to LST, placement into NY is as follows:
BC 6.3%
BU 15.4%
GW 8.9%
ND 8.4%

Let's apply logic and assume that the reason BC has such a low percentage going into NY is because they found local biglaw jobs. Using this simple logic, it's fair to say that BC and BU place better in NY than GW and ND (I'm willing to concede parity with GWmainly because I don't feel like arguing the point)

[bcsum00]

Hi bcsum00, I'm considering ND as my top choice so I do wish to learn more about it. As you mentioned, probably the chance for biglaw in NYC is pretty limited for ND. How about big laws in Chicago? As I understand, Chicago rather than NYC is the main career target for ND.

Thanks!

send me a PM

[Tiago Splitter]

No it doesn't "affirm" (by which I think you mean "confirm") his quesstimate. He guesstimate was based on bullshit about "top this" and "top that". Why not look at actual numbers that answer the question about how well these schools do. You can't predict your success in law school - everyone is trying to get good grades and is reasonably smart. You can make estimates based on past school performance, and for all three of those schools, it's not good in NYC.

We don't disagree. But what dingbat said was that one has to do very well at these schools to even have a chance at BigLaw, and admitted he was probably being too generous. It's not unreasonable to say someone in the top 15% at Minnesota or top third at GW has a chance at BigLaw, but you'd be an idiot to go to either expecting BigLaw.

I'd also recommend including Federal Clerkships and placement into firms of 100-249 attorneys in your figures.