. Forum

[ehall20]

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[Br3v]

Can anyone shed some light on why the employment stats look so much better for Penn/Northwestern compared to their peer schools? Wondering what everyone's thoughts are if these schools would be worth attending at ~50k CoA opposed to full tuition from UVA/Boalt/Mich.

Is the 2nd sentence asking about 150 total at northwestern/penn compared to full tuition rides at UVA/mich/boalt?

TCR is easily the full ride at any of the 3.

[TripTrip]

I have a theory that Northwestern has better employment numbers because it focuses on admitting students who have prior work experience. The WE for those students helps with getting a job after graduation.

Scooped. If that's right, take the full-ride.

[ehall20]

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[TripTrip]

Take a full-ride still.

[Br3v]

Take a full-ride still.

[ehall20]

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[TheThriller]

Boalt Full Ride.

[TripTrip]

If I'm reading this right (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=penn) it looks like Penn has a 67% chance of favorable outcomes (fed clerkship or Biglaw). Compare that to 48% at UVA (http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=uva).

You're not counting the large number of UVAers who self-select into PI. Placement in biglaw does not equal ability to place in biglaw.

[ehall20]

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[basilseal]

I'm a little confused- you list the NU price as CoA and the others as full tuition. Do you mean they include a stipend? Otherwise a full-tuition scholly at those schools would also seem to lead to a similar CoA.

[ehall20]

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[TripTrip]

all public universities are automatically covered 100%

Only up to in-state student expense rates.

But even with that, you should still go to a public. The resident/non-rez difference at UVA is, what, $5k/yr?

[banjo]

Can anyone shed some light on why the employment stats look so much better for Penn/Northwestern compared to their peer schools?

This discussion, particularly w/r/t Penn, is currently happening in like five different threads in the Law School and Choosing a Law School forums. The 2Ls who have seen callback data tell us that the GPA cutoffs for the lower T14 schools are pretty similar and that placement differences can be explained by self-selection. However, I have definitely seen knowledgeable posters here say that a school's historical placement into a particular market (NYC for Penn, Chicago for NU) makes firms more willing to call back students from that school who are also in their GPA range. I have also heard posters say that firms are less willing to deviate from their normal hiring ITE, meaning that firms in NYC that normally take dozens of CNP students may not be willing to accomodate a huge influx of Chicago or UVA 2Ls bidding on NYC. Finally, in NU's case, WE obviously plays a role, as does a grading/ranking system that really works in students' favor.

I've tried to be as informed as an anxious 0L can be about placement, and that's what I've gathered. I think if you are willing to play it safe and work in NYC, it might be worth paying 30-40k more to attend Penn over the rest of the lower T14 (though not 50k) and I would attend NU and probably Cornell over the other lower T14s at equal cost.

[BigZuck]

Can anyone shed some light on why the employment stats look so much better for Penn/Northwestern compared to their peer schools?

This discussion, particularly w/r/t Penn, is currently happening in like five different threads in the Law School and Choosing a Law School forums. The 2Ls who have seen callback data tell us that the GPA cutoffs for the lower T14 schools are pretty similar and that placement differences can be explained by self-selection. However, I have definitely seen knowledgeable posters here say that a school's historical placement into a particular market (NYC for Penn, Chicago for NU) makes firms more willing to call back students from that school who are also in their GPA range. I have also heard posters say that firms are less willing to deviate from their normal hiring ITE, meaning that firms in NYC that normally take dozens of CNP students may not be willing to accomodate a huge influx of Chicago or UVA 2Ls bidding on NYC. Finally, in NU's case, WE obviously plays a role, as does a grading/ranking system that really works in students' favor.

I've tried to be as informed as an anxious 0L can be about placement, and that's what I've gathered. I think if you are willing to play it safe and work in NYC, it might be worth paying 30-40k more to attend Penn over the rest of the lower T14 (though not 50k) and I would attend NU and probably Cornell over the other lower T14s at equal cost.

Why Cornell over Duke? At least last year Duke placed much better according to LST.

Curious because these are two of my choices.

[banjo]

Why Cornell over Duke? At least last year Duke placed much better according to LST.

Curious because these are two of my choices.

If in fact Duke and Cornell are peers in most firms' eyes, I would take Cornell at equal cost due to its even stronger ties to the healthier NYC market. A single year of placement data might not mean anything, especially considering Cornell had super high placement the year before last.

eta: We could probably just wait until the next year's data come out...

[IAFG]

eta: We could probably just wait until the next year's data come out...

in case hiring partners recently had some dramatic change of heart? We have the averaged data.

[dingbat]

One thing to keep in mind is that every year there's a school that seriously underperforms or outperforms compared to their peers. Don't just look at last year's data, but look at C/O 2012 (when it comes out), 2011, 2010 and 2009 if you can. As an example, I believe it was in 2010, Michigan's CSC advised students to focus heavily on Chicago, which backfired when the NY economy recovered much sooner.

[suralin]

One thing to keep in mind is that every year there's a school that seriously underperforms or outperforms compared to their peers. Don't just look at last year's data, but look at C/O 2012 (when it comes out), 2011, 2010 and 2009 if you can. As an example, I believe it was in 2010, Michigan's CSC advised students to focus heavily on Chicago, which backfired when the NY economy recovered much sooner.

+1

[bdubs]

I don't know that anyone can really answer this question because we only go through OCI at one school and there is a substantial amount of variation.

Things to consider:

1) Class size - UVA and Michigan are larger than Northwestern, Penn and Berkeley. In general bigger schools have worse employment outcomes for their relative rank.

2) Location - Berkeley is in a small, highly competitive market with a higher ranked competitor right next door. It doesn't help that most of its students are from California (> 50%) and have no connection to other major markets. Michigan and UVA tend to place more students into the larger markets (NY, DC, Chi, TX) because they're more diverse (partly b/c they're bigger). Michigan and UVA don't really have "home" markets though, since DC is not particularly partial to UVA over others. Penn has an obvious feed into NY and to a lesser extent Philly. Northwestern has a pretty good hold on Chicago (arguably better than UChi)

3) Work experience - Northwestern has a reputation for students with WE (presumably more mature, but that's debatable). The same students may have done just as well at other schools, but no one will ever really know. I think some employers seek out NU or view students slightly differently because of its more practical, work-experienced focus. As a military vet I think you'll have an edge everywhere though.

4) Consistency - Others have pointed this out but consistency matters. I believe that Penn and Northwestern have pretty consistently out-placed the other schools you're considering in NLJ 250 stats.

Bottom line is that you should factor in a lot of different things. If placement is your #1 concern in selecting a school (above all else) then you should probably spend the extra money to gain some peace of mind. There are, however many other reasons why you might want to choose Penn or Northwestern. I think there is a big difference between going to school in a city and going to school on an undergrad campus in a college town.

[XxSpyKEx]

I don't know that anyone can really answer this question because we only go through OCI at one school and there is a substantial amount of variation.

Things to consider:

1) Class size - UVA and Michigan are larger than Northwestern, Penn and Berkeley. In general bigger schools have worse employment outcomes for their relative rank.

2) Location - Berkeley is in a small, highly competitive market with a higher ranked competitor right next door. It doesn't help that most of its students are from California (> 50%) and have no connection to other major markets. Michigan and UVA tend to place more students into the larger markets (NY, DC, Chi, TX) because they're more diverse (partly b/c they're bigger). Michigan and UVA don't really have "home" markets though, since DC is not particularly partial to UVA over others. Penn has an obvious feed into NY and to a lesser extent Philly. Northwestern has a pretty good hold on Chicago (arguably better than UChi)

3) Work experience - Northwestern has a reputation for students with WE (presumably more mature, but that's debatable). The same students may have done just as well at other schools, but no one will ever really know. I think some employers seek out NU or view students slightly differently because of its more practical, work-experienced focus. As a military vet I think you'll have an edge everywhere though.

4) Consistency - Others have pointed this out but consistency matters. I believe that Penn and Northwestern have pretty consistently out-placed the other schools you're considering in NLJ 250 stats.

Bottom line is that you should factor in a lot of different things. If placement is your #1 concern in selecting a school (above all else) then you should probably spend the extra money to gain some peace of mind. There are, however many other reasons why you might want to choose Penn or Northwestern. I think there is a big difference between going to school in a city and going to school on an undergrad campus in a college town.

Does the GI Bill cover the cost of living while attending law school as well? If not, the total cost of attendance difference at Penn and NU might be even higher than stated in the OP because it costs significantly more to live in a city, such as Chicago or Philly, than a college campus, such as Ann Arbor.

[ehall20]

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[dingbat]

Yeah, it covers a monthly housing allowance; but it's proportional to the CoL wherever you go to school. Here's the housing allowance they give you at a couple schools:
NYU/Columbia - $3,258 / month | $87,966 for 27 months
Chicago - $1,740 | $46,980
Michigan - $1,374 | $37,098
UVA - $1,365 | $36,855
Boalt - $2,409 | $65,043

It's not hard to survive in Manhattan off $3,258/month.

[IAFG]

I don't know that anyone can really answer this question because we only go through OCI at one school and there is a substantial amount of variation.

Things to consider:

1) Class size - UVA and Michigan are larger than Northwestern, Penn and Berkeley. In general bigger schools have worse employment outcomes for their relative rank.

2) Location - Berkeley is in a small, highly competitive market with a higher ranked competitor right next door. It doesn't help that most of its students are from California (> 50%) and have no connection to other major markets. Michigan and UVA tend to place more students into the larger markets (NY, DC, Chi, TX) because they're more diverse (partly b/c they're bigger). Michigan and UVA don't really have "home" markets though, since DC is not particularly partial to UVA over others. Penn has an obvious feed into NY and to a lesser extent Philly. Northwestern has a pretty good hold on Chicago (arguably better than UChi)

3) Work experience - Northwestern has a reputation for students with WE (presumably more mature, but that's debatable). The same students may have done just as well at other schools, but no one will ever really know. I think some employers seek out NU or view students slightly differently because of its more practical, work-experienced focus. As a military vet I think you'll have an edge everywhere though.

4) Consistency - Others have pointed this out but consistency matters. I believe that Penn and Northwestern have pretty consistently out-placed the other schools you're considering in NLJ 250 stats.

Bottom line is that you should factor in a lot of different things. If placement is your #1 concern in selecting a school (above all else) then you should probably spend the extra money to gain some peace of mind. There are, however many other reasons why you might want to choose Penn or Northwestern. I think there is a big difference between going to school in a city and going to school on an undergrad campus in a college town.

Does the GI Bill cover the cost of living while attending law school as well? If not, the total cost of attendance difference at Penn and NU might be even higher than stated in the OP because it costs significantly more to live in a city, such as Chicago or Philly, than a college campus, such as Ann Arbor.

Chicago isn't necessarily more expensive than AA.

[XxSpyKEx]

I don't know that anyone can really answer this question because we only go through OCI at one school and there is a substantial amount of variation.

Things to consider:

1) Class size - UVA and Michigan are larger than Northwestern, Penn and Berkeley. In general bigger schools have worse employment outcomes for their relative rank.

2) Location - Berkeley is in a small, highly competitive market with a higher ranked competitor right next door. It doesn't help that most of its students are from California (> 50%) and have no connection to other major markets. Michigan and UVA tend to place more students into the larger markets (NY, DC, Chi, TX) because they're more diverse (partly b/c they're bigger). Michigan and UVA don't really have "home" markets though, since DC is not particularly partial to UVA over others. Penn has an obvious feed into NY and to a lesser extent Philly. Northwestern has a pretty good hold on Chicago (arguably better than UChi)

3) Work experience - Northwestern has a reputation for students with WE (presumably more mature, but that's debatable). The same students may have done just as well at other schools, but no one will ever really know. I think some employers seek out NU or view students slightly differently because of its more practical, work-experienced focus. As a military vet I think you'll have an edge everywhere though.

4) Consistency - Others have pointed this out but consistency matters. I believe that Penn and Northwestern have pretty consistently out-placed the other schools you're considering in NLJ 250 stats.

Bottom line is that you should factor in a lot of different things. If placement is your #1 concern in selecting a school (above all else) then you should probably spend the extra money to gain some peace of mind. There are, however many other reasons why you might want to choose Penn or Northwestern. I think there is a big difference between going to school in a city and going to school on an undergrad campus in a college town.

Does the GI Bill cover the cost of living while attending law school as well? If not, the total cost of attendance difference at Penn and NU might be even higher than stated in the OP because it costs significantly more to live in a city, such as Chicago or Philly, than a college campus, such as Ann Arbor.

Chicago isn't necessarily more expensive than AA.

Well, NYC isn't necessarily more expensive than Chicago. But all things equal (such as living in, e.g., a 1 bedroom apartment with same square footage, eating the same food, parking, etc), it is. According to Bankrate, Chicago is 15.17% more expensive than Ann Arbor. http://www.bankrate.com/calculators/sav ... lator.aspx . In other words, $100k has the same purchasing power in Ann Arbor that $115,171 does in Chicago... At least the GI Bill takes that into account though.