W&M vs. UF Forum

[seancris]

Got big scholarships to each. Ties to Florida and Virginia. Stronger ties to Florida. Not much preference for either location. Dream job would be a career prosecutor and eventually a lower court judge.

Curious about the general arguments for and against each.

I could realistically graduate from UF with around 15k-25k debt given my scholarship, savings, and having CoL largely covered. This assuming the tuition rates remain roughly stable.

@ W&M I'd estimate 25k-35k debt.

I'm used to Florida being a gator alum, don't know much about W&M aside from the advertisements.

[twenty]

First, W&M and UF are fairly comparable, with perhaps W&M having a slight edge for PI/Govt, and UF having a slight edge for regional biglaw. If you want to do criminal law in Florida, it would be immensely helpful if you were fluent in Spanish, and if you're not, you're going to get beaten out by folks that do.

Also, Florida criminal law doesn't pay as well as Virginia criminal law, based on a very small amount of research done on this topic. On the other hand, Florida's population is more than twice that of Virginia's, so more openings...?

If this were me, I'd inform W&M about the scholarship from UF, and tell them point blank that you'd attend if they can chip in an extra 3k-5k a year. If they do, go there. If they don't, it's probably a tossup.

[BearsGrl]

Got big scholarships to each. Ties to Florida and Virginia. Stronger ties to Florida. Not much preference for either location. Dream job would be a career prosecutor and eventually a lower court judge.

Curious about the general arguments for and against each.

I could realistically graduate from UF with around 15k-25k debt given my scholarship, savings, and having CoL largely covered. This assuming the tuition rates remain roughly stable.

@ W&M I'd estimate 25k-35k debt.

I'm used to Florida being a gator alum, don't know much about W&M aside from the advertisements.

What are the stips? If there are stips, which school could you afford more? UF gives you access to the South. W&M gives you non-Southern access. However, if you don't like Winters, then don't go to W&M. It's a lifestyle change overall. Think of what place you'd want to give up your life more. You're not going to have weekends away to do X activity so plan accordingly.

[badaboom61]

The job prospects are so similar I would pick first based on location, then cost. It sounds like you have stronger ties to Florida, so that will help.

To be honest with you though, I wouldn't take on more than a penny of debt to attend UF. Everyone I know who isn't on law review is either completely unemployed or working in shitlaw. I assume things are similar at W&M. The market in general is just so competitive right now and clogged up with T14 grads that it's very hard to find decent paying legal employment out of even a T50 school. Chances are you'll be able to find something, but there's a very good possibility it won't pay any more / be any more interesting or fulfilling than the career options you have open now with just a bachelor's degree.

Also, last I heard UF was jacking up tuition like crazy. They've raised it 15% a year (in state) for the past few years; not sure if they're still doing that or when they plan to stop.

[BearsGrl]

The job prospects are so similar I would pick first based on location, then cost. It sounds like you have stronger ties to Florida, so that will help.

To be honest with you though, I wouldn't take on more than a penny of debt to attend UF. Everyone I know who isn't on law review is either completely unemployed or working in shitlaw. I assume things are similar at W&M. The market in general is just so competitive right now and clogged up with T14 grads that it's very hard to find decent paying legal employment out of even a T50 school. Chances are you'll be able to find something, but there's a very good possibility it won't pay any more / be any more interesting or fulfilling than the career options you have open now with just a bachelor's degree.

Also, last I heard UF was jacking up tuition like crazy. They've raised it 15% a year (in state) for the past few years; not sure if they're still doing that or when they plan to stop.

State schools overall though are ridiculously cheap. Overall. And if he's in the 10 yr payback plan, then he doesn't have to necessarily worry about debt.

But yeah, location is key.

[nebula666]

I'd take the offer from UF. I guess for fairness I should disclose that I'm a 1L at UF this year, but even with that bias, I don't think it's worth going to a marginally better school when it is much more expensive.

Going to UF means you graduate from the best school in the state and only realistically face competition from FSU and Miami grads, maybe some from Emory who want to move to FL, with some of the best from the shit law schools in the state sprinkled in.

In Virginia, you are competing with several schools that are closer to each other in the rankings.

UVA (20% employed in VA)
William and Mary (30%)
Richmond (67.5%)
George Mason (54.7%)
Washington and Lee (32.4%)
GW (10%)
+ all of the bad schools in the area (Regent, Liberty, Catholic).

UF has an overall better employment score than W&M (59% vs. 55%), (89% overall employed vs. 80%) though W&M places 2x as many grads in clerkships and 6% more in public service in general.

Even if the prices were the exact same, UF seems like the better option. With UF being significantly cheaper and in the state in which it ultimately seems you wish to work, I think it's an easier decision.

I would understand why you would want to get out of Gainesville after 4 years here, however, I have a feeling you aren't going to enjoy living in Williamsburg nearly as much. I don't think anything interesting has happened in Williamsburg since the Civil War. There's only so many times you can visit Colonial Williamsburg before you consider hanging yourself.

Good luck with the decision and feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions about UF law.

[timbs4339]

Got big scholarships to each. Ties to Florida and Virginia. Stronger ties to Florida. Not much preference for either location. Dream job would be a career prosecutor and eventually a lower court judge.

Curious about the general arguments for and against each.

I could realistically graduate from UF with around 15k-25k debt given my scholarship, savings, and having CoL largely covered. This assuming the tuition rates remain roughly stable.

@ W&M I'd estimate 25k-35k debt.

I'm used to Florida being a gator alum, don't know much about W&M aside from the advertisements.

What are the stips?

[seancris]

Got big scholarships to each. Ties to Florida and Virginia. Stronger ties to Florida. Not much preference for either location. Dream job would be a career prosecutor and eventually a lower court judge.

Curious about the general arguments for and against each.

I could realistically graduate from UF with around 15k-25k debt given my scholarship, savings, and having CoL largely covered. This assuming the tuition rates remain roughly stable.

@ W&M I'd estimate 25k-35k debt.

I'm used to Florida being a gator alum, don't know much about W&M aside from the advertisements.

What are the stips?

Stips to both are fine.

"B average" at W&M, and they say that only 1 out of 41 was unable to meet that.

2.8 stip at UF which is a low bar given their curve.

Should note that the "fellowship" at W&M has a 10-hr per week work requirement. At UF I'll have that time free to clerk or do other paid work during second and third years.

[nebula666]

If you want to do criminal law in Florida, it would be immensely helpful if you were fluent in Spanish, and if you're not, you're going to get beaten out by folks that do.

There are plenty of cities in Florida where you would be fine not knowing any Spanish. I wouldn't factor that into my decision unless I was dead set on working in Miami. If you want to work south of Palm Beach County, it would be a huge plus. If you want to work in Jacksonville, not so much. In Gainesville, I'm more likely to find a resident whom I can't understand because they are speaking English, not Spanish.

[BearsGrl]

If you want to do criminal law in Florida, it would be immensely helpful if you were fluent in Spanish, and if you're not, you're going to get beaten out by folks that do.

There are plenty of cities in Florida where you would be fine not knowing any Spanish. I wouldn't factor that into my decision unless I was dead set on working in Miami. If you want to work south of Palm Beach County, it would be a huge plus. If you want to work in Jacksonville, not so much. In Gainesville, I'm more likely to find a resident whom I can't understand because they are speaking English, not Spanish.

The same can be said for the whole Gulf side of the state too.

You don't want fellowship stipulations unless you REALLY like the fellowship/desire it/it's awesome. In 2L/3L, you're gonna get this "I don't care what I do" mentality. Just read any 2/3L thread topic on this on TLS.

Like I said, it's all location. Assume you don't meet the stips, which can you afford and which location is better to you.

[seancris]

If you want to do criminal law in Florida, it would be immensely helpful if you were fluent in Spanish, and if you're not, you're going to get beaten out by folks that do.

There are plenty of cities in Florida where you would be fine not knowing any Spanish. I wouldn't factor that into my decision unless I was dead set on working in Miami. If you want to work south of Palm Beach County, it would be a huge plus. If you want to work in Jacksonville, not so much. In Gainesville, I'm more likely to find a resident whom I can't understand because they are speaking English, not Spanish.

lol, I know. I've met 15+ prosecutors and PDs in Florida and none speak Spanish. It's definitely a plus, but lacking that particular skill certainly isn't a career killer.

[seancris]

Like I said, it's all location. Assume you don't meet the stips, which can you afford and which location is better to you.

If I don't meet the stips, it's UF 100% in terms of price. Then again, I'd probably drop out anyway since that would put me well below median.

[BearsGrl]

Like I said, it's all location. Assume you don't meet the stips, which can you afford and which location is better to you.

If I don't meet the stips, it's UF 100% in terms of price. Then again, I'd probably drop out anyway since that would put me well below median.

Over the next bit of time, think about where you really see yourself wanting to work, location-wise. You're always going to be happier in a location that you can see yourself it. It will engage you in the process more. And honestly, you give up your life more than you ever think you would/could (and even more than is discussed on TLS).

The 10 hour requirement could keep you from doing other on-campus gigs too. Who knows.

All of it should be weighed. That's all I meant to say.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

W&M for the change of pace. If you are dead-set on FL, maybe UF. Though surely someone from W&M, gator undergrad, florida ties, could find a way to spend summers in FL and be competitive there. More of a risk but you only live once.

I dunno do whatever you want man; considering your career goals, these are decent choices at the prices you have worked out.

[cahwc12]

I saw your posts on here before the summer and you were talking about retaking I thought. Study and retake man. If memory serves you have a 4.0 or something close to it. Don't settle for either of these bad schools, and especially not when they aren't free.

Wait a year, study, retake--you've been around here long enough to know the drill. Don't settle for these schools. And if you want to practice in Florida (why would you?), you should know that FSU Law is the better option.

[seancris]

I saw your posts on here before the summer and you were talking about retaking I thought. Study and retake man. If memory serves you have a 4.0 or something close to it. Don't settle for either of these bad schools, and especially not when they aren't free.

Wait a year, study, retake--you've been around here long enough to know the drill. Don't settle for these schools. And if you want to practice in Florida (why would you?), you should know that FSU Law is the better option.

Retook in October, got a good score which opened many more doors than my previous score. Retaking the first score was probably the smartest thing I've ever done and at this point I'm totally comfortable with my options. Truly appreciate the sentiment, though.

As for FSU vs. UF, FSU has better employment numbers - and they gave me a 50k scholarship - but quality of life and other personal reasons combined with the comparable 48k scholarship make UF more attractive for me.

[1693]

I'm from Florida and graduated from W&M undergrad.

I'm sure you know Gainesville well so I don't need to talk about that with you. Williamsburg and Virginia are amazing though. Given a choice, I'd move to VA.

[goaheadualright]

uf!!!! Walkable very low cost of living great weather great football & good school

[nebula666]

have you visited Williamsburg yet? I don't think you should really make this decision until you do so.

[BigZuck]

If you really do have a 4.0 I think going to either of these schools would be criminal. Retake one last time, go to HYS and become the best damn prosecutor the state of Florida has ever seen.

However since you won't do that what about waiting until your cycle is over before deciding/posing these questions? I know you're waiting on Emory at least and I think if you could swing a Woodruff there that would be a better option. Any other schools you are waiting on? I understand wanting to weigh all possible options (I've been doing that constantly myself) but I'm assuming your cycle isn't over yet so this is jumping the gun.

[seancris]

If you really do have a 4.0 I think going to either of these schools would be criminal. Retake one last time, go to HYS and become the best damn prosecutor the state of Florida has ever seen.

However since you won't do that what about waiting until your cycle is over before deciding/posing these questions? I know you're waiting on Emory at least and I think if you could swing a Woodruff there that would be a better option. Any other schools you are waiting on? I understand wanting to weigh all possible options (I've been doing that constantly myself) but I'm assuming your cycle isn't over yet so this is jumping the gun.

Studied for 6 months to get my current score, used a course, the bibles, tons of PTs. Might improve to a 168 or even 169 if the stars align, but that wouldn't change my options significantly enough to make it worth waiting a year/losing a year's income. Even if it would, I'm very comfortable with my options.

Cycle is ongoing, but these were my top two choices. The only decisions left are T14s, and I wouldn't attend any at the 6-figure debt level that I'd be left with so I think it's safe to start narrowing the choice to my T1 full rides (have a few more of those, but these are the top choices).

I think this decision is going to require a trip to Williamsburg, as a poster noted earlier. Might try to swing one next week sometime.

[1693]

If you really do have a 4.0 I think going to either of these schools would be criminal. Retake one last time, go to HYS and become the best damn prosecutor the state of Florida has ever seen.

However since you won't do that what about waiting until your cycle is over before deciding/posing these questions? I know you're waiting on Emory at least and I think if you could swing a Woodruff there that would be a better option. Any other schools you are waiting on? I understand wanting to weigh all possible options (I've been doing that constantly myself) but I'm assuming your cycle isn't over yet so this is jumping the gun.

Studied for 6 months to get my current score, used a course, the bibles, tons of PTs. Might improve to a 168 or even 169 if the stars align, but that wouldn't change my options significantly enough to make it worth waiting a year/losing a year's income. Even if it would, I'm very comfortable with my options.

Cycle is ongoing, but these were my top two choices. The only decisions left are T14s, and I wouldn't attend any at the 6-figure debt level that I'd be left with so I think it's safe to start narrowing the choice to my T1 full rides (have a few more of those, but these are the top choices).

I think this decision is going to require a trip to Williamsburg, as a poster noted earlier. Might try to swing one next week sometime.

If you go to Williamsburg, fly into Newport News if you can. Hospitality House usually has the best rates and is next to the undergrad and about a 10 min walk from the law school. Try Pierce's and Five Forks. You're welcome.

[cahwc12]

If you really do have a 4.0 I think going to either of these schools would be criminal. Retake one last time, go to HYS and become the best damn prosecutor the state of Florida has ever seen.

However since you won't do that what about waiting until your cycle is over before deciding/posing these questions? I know you're waiting on Emory at least and I think if you could swing a Woodruff there that would be a better option. Any other schools you are waiting on? I understand wanting to weigh all possible options (I've been doing that constantly myself) but I'm assuming your cycle isn't over yet so this is jumping the gun.

Studied for 6 months to get my current score, used a course, the bibles, tons of PTs. Might improve to a 168 or even 169 if the stars align, but that wouldn't change my options significantly enough to make it worth waiting a year/losing a year's income. Even if it would, I'm very comfortable with my options.

Cycle is ongoing, but these were my top two choices. The only decisions left are T14s, and I wouldn't attend any at the 6-figure debt level that I'd be left with so I think it's safe to start narrowing the choice to my T1 full rides (have a few more of those, but these are the top choices).

I think this decision is going to require a trip to Williamsburg, as a poster noted earlier. Might try to swing one next week sometime.

Are you sure about that?