Indiana Tech Law School Forum

[Tiago Splitter]

For all we know the people attending are only paying 10k per year. The unfortunate reality is that the current loan system disconnects students from the actual cost of law school, so lowering the price doesn't do much. And to the extent people have a problem with the price, the school will just give them a "scholarship" to bring it down to a more acceptable level. I think the truth is what you said; they can't possibly find 100 people to attend, even for free. Given that they already have faculty on hand and a branch new facility, the marginal cost of adding more students is basically zero, and yet here they are with somewhere between 15 and 28. To improve their credibility and actually develop a real pipeline of suckers they would do well to just straight up pay people to attend next year.

You would think this was the case, but the reality is that TTT schools are usually much worse when it comes to handing out scholarships, since they have little to no endowment. I find it hard to believe that Indy Tech is really bucking that trend. Maybe I am wrong...

You might be right. But few TTT schools have had so much trouble even getting enough people to show up. I think we both agree that from an economic perspective it makes sense for them to just let in a few dozen more people for free, but maybe those people just aren't out there. Or maybe the administration is so boneheaded the "economic perspective" just isn't their thing.

[JCougar]

You might be right. But few TTT schools have had so much trouble even getting enough people to show up. I think we both agree that from an economic perspective it makes sense for them to just let in a few dozen more people for free, but maybe those people just aren't out there. Or maybe the administration is so boneheaded the "economic perspective" just isn't their thing.

Or maybe the Tier 3 schools have been forced to stoop so low that there's just nobody at all left to attend unaccredited dumps like Indy Tech. Probably a lot of people make the judgment (bad as it is) that they'd be better off paying sticker for a Tier 3 or even an accredited Tier 4 than going to Indy Tech even at a huge discount.

Like someone else previously said, getting into a Tier 4/unaccredited school these days simply requires one to fog a mirror and sign a loan document. Some of the part-time programs at these places have LSAT medians of 141. 141 is the 15th percentile. And of course, half the people are below 141. The fifteenth percentile. Might as well just let everyone in.

[jarofsoup]

The worse part of Indiana Tech Law School is that the school is unaccredited, so students cannot transfer out of it.

Maybe if they do well as a 1L they could apply to a real school as a 1L and do it over again?

[TheSpanishMain]

141 is the 15th percentile. And of course, half the people are below 141. The fifteenth percentile. Might as well just let everyone in.

That's staggering. I don't mean to sound all TLS elitist or anything, but if you score a 141 on the LSAT it's either A) English is your fifth language B) you had an embolism during the test or C) you're flat out stupid. That's not insufficient study time or time mismanagement. That's just dumb.

[hiima3L]

141 is the 15th percentile. And of course, half the people are below 141. The fifteenth percentile. Might as well just let everyone in.

That's staggering. I don't mean to sound all TLS elitist or anything, but if you score a 141 on the LSAT it's either A) English is your fifth language B) you had an embolism during the test or C) you're flat out stupid. That's not insufficient study time or time mismanagement. That's just dumb.

It's got to be due to a complete lack of basic English skills or a complete lack of logical reasoning ability. A 141 is only 13-14 points more than the score you'd get by chance alone.

It would be more respectable to just waive the LSAT entirely on principle.

[didntgo89072014]

Like someone else previously said, getting into a Tier 4/unaccredited school these days simply requires one to fog a mirror and sign a loan document. Some of the part-time programs at these places have LSAT medians of 141. 141 is the 15th percentile. And of course, half the people are below 141. The fifteenth percentile. Might as well just let everyone in.

Some of them effectively do. I know Vermont Law and NESL both have acceptance rates north of 80%. Most likely the only rejections at these schools go to people with serious criminal records and international applicants who can't slap together the most basic English sentence.

[Tiago Splitter]

It would be more respectable to just waive the LSAT entirely on principle.

This really isn't far fetched. The ABA only requires some kind of standardized test, not specifically the LSAT. Rutgers-Newark couldn't find anyone to attend a couple cycles ago (when apps were 25% higher) and was aggressively recruiting anyone who happened to take the GMAT that spring and summer. And RU-N is about five levels above a school like Indiana Tech.

And I agree with JCougar about people just not wanting to go to an unaccredited, new school. Unlike years past pretty much everyone who can get into Indy Tech can now get into at least a few other schools with accreditation and an alumni base.

[hiima3L]

It would be more respectable to just waive the LSAT entirely on principle.

This really isn't far fetched. The ABA only requires some kind of standardized test, not specifically the LSAT. Rutgers-Newark couldn't find anyone to attend a couple cycles ago (when apps were 25% higher) and was aggressively recruiting anyone who happened to take the GMAT that spring and summer. And RU-N is about five levels above a school like Indiana Tech.

And I agree with JCougar about people just not wanting to go to an unaccredited, new school. Unlike years past pretty much everyone who can get into Indy Tech can now get into at least a few other schools with accreditation and an alumni base.

As has been debated endlessly on this forum, it's questionable whether the LSAT is a good metric for LS success, so I can absolutely see a terlet like this coming up with some "innovative new approach" to legal education, such as waiving the LSAT.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Keep in mind there is one thing that impedes a race to the bottom: T4's still tend to reject students whose LSATs are so low that it's statistically probable they're not going to pass the bar. If a school's BPR is too low, it risks losing ABA accreditation. Just from a survival standpoint, law schools can't afford to admit too many applicants in the 130s--students that might never have the skills to pass the bar. So the nadir of standards probably has a floor of between 137-145, depending on how stringent a state's bar requirements are (e.g. an Oklahoma school could afford to dip lower than a California school).

[Tiago Splitter]

Current bar passage requirements to maintain accreditation:

Either:

1) Show that 75% of grads who took the bar passed in at least 3 of the previous five years or

2) Show that the first time passage rate is no more than 15 points below the average for ABA schools in that state

OR...And this is the big one

3) Show that 75% of bar takers passed within five years. That's right. As long as 75% can pass by the time they take the bar for the tenth time, you're good to go.

Raising these standards would help keep schools from really dipping low, but there's also a lot of lag time. Indy Tech may have to worry about getting accredited at all, but for schools already accredited by the ABA, it takes a really long time and a lot of bar failures before the ABA will even consider giving you trouble.

[Monochromatic Oeuvre]

Yeah, it would take a while and every school is probably at least five median points away from being in serious trouble.

Still, if the ABA won't endorse my "anyone who legitimately can't get a 150 is too stupid to be a lawyer" plan, then it at least provides small comfort to know that schools are not literally going to start taking lots of kids in the 130's.

[nothingtosee]

It would be more respectable to just waive the LSAT entirely on principle.

This really isn't far fetched. The ABA only requires some kind of standardized test, not specifically the LSAT. Rutgers-Newark couldn't find anyone to attend a couple cycles ago (when apps were 25% higher) and was aggressively recruiting anyone who happened to take the GMAT that spring and summer. And RU-N is about five levels above a school like Indiana Tech.

And I agree with JCougar about people just not wanting to go to an unaccredited, new school. Unlike years past pretty much everyone who can get into Indy Tech can now get into at least a few other schools with accreditation and an alumni base.

As has been debated endlessly on this forum, it's questionable whether the LSAT is a good metric for LS success, so I can absolutely see a terlet like this coming up with some "innovative new approach" to legal education, such as waiving the LSAT.

I don't think that's questionable. LSAT correlates more strongly than GPA. LSAT + GPA correlates more strongly than LSAT. I forget the r squared, but I think it's enough that it's important. There's a good 45 minute video on youtube by a Virginia law dean or professor addressing this.

[JCougar]

As has been debated endlessly on this forum, it's questionable whether the LSAT is a good metric for LS success, so I can absolutely see a terlet like this coming up with some "innovative new approach" to legal education, such as waiving the LSAT.

I don't think that's questionable. LSAT correlates more strongly than GPA. LSAT + GPA correlates more strongly than LSAT. I forget the r squared, but I think it's enough that it's important. There's a good 45 minute video on youtube by a Virginia law dean or professor addressing this.

It's questionable as to the degree, but it IS a "good" metric for predicting law school success. In other words, it's far from perfect, but it's the best we have, especially given that predicting the future is pretty complicated, especially when it comes to human behavior.

The average r^2 for all law schools between LSAT and first year GPA is 0.36, but it varies among schools. My guess is it has less predictive power at higher-ranked schools, since law school exams are a lot easier than the hardest LSAT questions, and therefore you get a ceiling effect on talent as measured by law school GPA (which makes forcing exam scores at high-ranked schools onto an artificial bell curve all the more stupid, unless you actually try to make the material significantly more difficult from the cognitive perspective).

0.36 is pretty good for a single metric, but it still leaves a lot to be determined at the individual level. In aggregate, though, you're going to have a lot of problems if your class has a 141 LSAT median.

[TheSpanishMain]

Still, if the ABA won't endorse my "anyone who legitimately can't get a 150 is too stupid to be a lawyer" plan

Really? I'd put it even higher, like, say, 155.*

*Assuming the person studied appropriately, gave it a genuine effort, and retested if necessary.

[phillywc]

Dean of Admissions sounds like such a fun job...

Of course, some of these TTTTs are destroying lives so that wouldn't be fun. But just imagine reading the apps that come into Indiana Tech!

[unodostres]

I really don't know how these people live with themselves knowing that they are fucking over people's lives. This statement can be used for all TTT dumpster fires.

[Otunga]

I really don't know how these people live with themselves knowing that they are fucking over people's lives. This statement can be used for all TTT dumpster fires.

I'd guess a solid amount of them think they're doing a positive thing, and they have shitty justifications for believing that.

[BigZuck]

I really don't know how these people live with themselves knowing that they are fucking over people's lives. This statement can be used for all TTT dumpster fires.

I'd guess a solid amount of them think they're doing a positive thing, and they have shitty justifications for believing that.

Yeah. They give people opportunity, now it's just up to them to kill it in law school and get the job of their dreams!

[sighsigh]

Say what.

[BentleyLittle]

Say what you will, but andré gets the ladies.

Models and bottles!

[20141023]

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[unodostres]

Students doin' work.





The fuck.

I researched it and I honestly think he is trying to copy E E Cummings with his name.


Edit: One of his published articles is "All eyez on me." Why?!?!?!!??

[20141023]

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[haus]

Still, if the ABA won't endorse my "anyone who legitimately can't get a 150 is too stupid to be a lawyer" plan

Really? I'd put it even higher, like, say, 155.*

*Assuming the person studied appropriately, gave it a genuine effort, and retested if necessary.

155? Yale admitted someone recently with a 152.

http://www.law.yale.edu/admissions/profile.htm

[20141023]

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