Gap between Penn and Columbia Forum

senorhosh · Post by **senorhosh** » Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:34 pm

Searching forums, it seems like Columbia and NYU are very close and are considered peers.
It also seems like NYU and Penn are very close.

However, it seems like Columbia and Penn are miles away (or that's what I got).

How big is the gap between these two schools? (Mainly concerned about biglaw both in and out of NYC, but for the sake of others' curiosity, also would like to know about PI, gov, etc.)

How do those around median fare at Penn compared to Columbia? And the bottom third/quarter?

NoodleyOne · Post by **NoodleyOne** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:25 am

Columbia and NYU aren't really that close. Columbia (if I recall from the latest stats) places most of it's students in Biglaw, and does so at the highest rate of all law schools (although there is likely a lot of self-selection going on with HYS), which is why it's so highly considered on these boards. If you want Biglaw, and you can't get HYS, Columbia is your best shot.

Aberzombie1892 · Post by **Aberzombie1892** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:39 am

Penn and Columbia are functionally peers in terms of desirable outcomes. Penn and Columbia are consistently among the strongest few T14 schools in NLJ + fed clerkship placement. At sticker at both, I personally would probably choose Columbia. However, if Penn offers even a small scholarship, I would probably choose Penn.

Also, as a side note, I would choose Penn over NYU, as Penn seems to consistently place better than NYU. The gap is not always as large as it was this year, but it's large enough to make a difference. Because I would want to maximize my chances at a desirable outcome considering that I am going through all the trouble to go to one of those schools, Penn would be the better choice.

NoodleyOne · Post by **NoodleyOne** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:46 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Penn and Columbia are functionally peers in terms of desirable outcomes. Penn and Columbia are consistently among the strongest few T14 schools in NLJ + fed clerkship placement. At sticker at both, I personally would probably choose Columbia. However, if Penn offers even a small scholarship, I would probably choose Penn.

Also, as a side note, I would choose Penn over NYU, as Penn seems to consistently place better than NYU. The gap is not always as large as it was this year, but it's large enough to make a difference. Because I would want to maximize my chances at a desirable outcome considering that I am going through all the trouble to go to one of those schools, Penn would be the better choice.

There seems to be the idea that NYUs poorer placement into Biglaw comes from the PI reputation of the school, which leads to a significant portion of their class from self-selecting out of OCI and the like. I don't know if it's actually true or what evidence there is to support that, but if it is it could explain Penn's better placement.

moonman157 · Post by **moonman157** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:53 am

There are ongoing debates in regards to NYU/Columbia and NYU/Penn being peers. It seems that the general consensus is that Columbia definitely has an employment edge over NYU, but assessing NYU/Penn is more difficult because of that NYU PI self-selection. Another factor that may go into it is self-selection into NYC. This is just speculation, but it's not a stretch to assume that the same kids that got into NYU also got into Penn, and vice versa, and the ones who chose NYU were dead set on NYC and the ones who chose Penn could see themselves living elsewhere. Thus NYU students (which there are a lot more of) were competing against each other for the same top NYC firms, while a more sizable portion of Penn's class focused on secondary markets and lessened the competition for those gunning for NYC. Again, speculation, but it's an argument that gets thrown into the debate as well. Personally, I think Columbia has enough of an edge that I would need more than a little money from Penn to pass up Columbia, but they're definitely two of the best non-YSH schools for biglaw.

20130312 · Post by **20130312** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:56 am

It seems to be the consensus among Penn students that if you want biglaw in NYC, then you should take NYU over Penn.

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 10:37 am

NoodleyOne wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Penn and Columbia are functionally peers in terms of desirable outcomes. Penn and Columbia are consistently among the strongest few T14 schools in NLJ + fed clerkship placement. At sticker at both, I personally would probably choose Columbia. However, if Penn offers even a small scholarship, I would probably choose Penn.

Also, as a side note, I would choose Penn over NYU, as Penn seems to consistently place better than NYU. The gap is not always as large as it was this year, but it's large enough to make a difference. Because I would want to maximize my chances at a desirable outcome considering that I am going through all the trouble to go to one of those schools, Penn would be the better choice.
There seems to be the idea that NYUs poorer placement into Biglaw comes from the PI reputation of the school, which leads to a significant portion of their class from self-selecting out of OCI and the like. I don't know if it's actually true or what evidence there is to support that, but if it is it could explain Penn's better placement.

From last fall's OCI thread, it seems that 85% of Columbia who who did OCI got biglaw, and 80% of NYU who participated in OCI also got biglaw. Not that big of a gap. Also, I think the percentage of people who opted out of participating in OCI at NYU was much higher. So there definitely is some truth to it.

Aberzombie1892 · Post by **Aberzombie1892** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 11:32 am

While there does appear to be some truth to it, we don't know how many people who didn't participate could have landed big law. Because we don't know tha number (and it cant be found out), it's impossible to quantify NYU's true placement relative to peer schools. Also, we don't know the number of Penn students that opted out either. Thus, it's almost pointless for someone seeking big law to try to take into account participations rates as (1) we don't know the rate for all schools and (2) no one can determine if people who isn't participate could have received big law. As a result, if I were seeking big law and was looking at non-HYS t14s, I would lean Penn and Columbia over other schools. The NLJ charts since 2005 will support that conclusion.

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:39 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:While there does appear to be some truth to it, we don't know how many people who didn't participate could have landed big law. Because we don't know tha number (and it cant be found out), it's impossible to quantify NYU's true placement relative to peer schools. Also, we don't know the number of Penn students that opted out either. Thus, it's almost pointless for someone seeking big law to try to take into account participations rates as (1) we don't know the rate for all schools and (2) no one can determine if people who isn't participate could have received big law. As a result, if I were seeking big law and was looking at non-HYS t14s, I would lean Penn and Columbia over other schools. The NLJ charts since 2005 will support that conclusion.

There's some truth to the PI bias. But the fact that NYU places very well for students who actually participates in OCI is not "some truth" but a statistical fact. To imply that the PI focused students at NYU are less competitive grades-wise than the 85%~ of the school that participates in OCI is an assumption not grounded in facts and is merely pure unjustified speculation. Until proven otherwise, it is better to just assume a normal grade distribution of those students.

That said, either one is probably fine for a person seeking big law.

Rahviveh · Post by **Rahviveh** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:55 pm

Is Penn worth sticker if you want biglaw?

20130312 · Post by **20130312** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 12:58 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:Is Penn worth sticker if you want biglaw?

Is it worth it to you? You have to evaluate your goals and make this decision yourself.

senorhosh · Post by **senorhosh** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:08 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:It seems to be the consensus among Penn students that if you want biglaw in NYC, then you should take NYU over Penn.

Do you go to penn or is this from other threads?

BruceWayne · Post by **BruceWayne** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:19 pm

People have been throwing around the "80 percent of CLS/NYU who want biglaw got it" thing for a while like it's a fact. But there's no data that has ever been released showed anything of the sort.

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:People have been throwing around the "80 percent of CLS/NYU who want biglaw got it" thing for a while like it's a fact. But there's no data that has ever been released showed anything of the sort.

Because schools don't publish OCI numbers, and usually we only get access to such data when those 2Ls graduate two years later. Thus any data from Fall 2011 or Fall 2010 OCIs would not be available in the traditional sense yet. Until then, I guess we have to trust the people who say they heard from OCS.

BruceWayne · Post by **BruceWayne** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:28 pm

thelawyler wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:People have been throwing around the "80 percent of CLS/NYU who want biglaw got it" thing for a while like it's a fact. But there's no data that has ever been released showed anything of the sort.
Because schools don't publish OCI numbers, and usually we only get access to such data when those 2Ls graduate two years later. Thus any data from Fall 2011 or Fall 2010 OCIs would not be available in the traditional sense. Until then, I guess we have to trust the people who say they heard from OCS.

Considering the fact that things have gotten worse, and how drastically far off 85 % is from the released verified data from the nlj--that's a Hell of a lot of trust.

In addition schools like UVA, NU, and Michigan have data from last year available that people have posted detailed info about on this site. The CLS/NYU 80 percent thing is really just thrown around randomly without reference to really anything.

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:31 pm

Things have not gotten worse from the Class of 2011, who did OCI right when the crash happened. And New York has been the quickest to rebound, with a lot of the V10 having class sizes near their pre-recession numbers. Considering NYU/CLS feed into the V10, I don't know what you're talking about that things have gotten worse.

And that data from UVA, Mich, and NU are for the co2011, which again did OCI during the worse recession in history. Things have gotten better, at least in New York.

BruceWayne · Post by **BruceWayne** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:42 pm

thelawyler wrote:Things have not gotten worse from the Class of 2011, who did OCI right when the crash happened. And New York has been the quickest to rebound, with a lot of the V10 having class sizes near their pre-recession numbers. Considering NYU/CLS feed into the V10, I don't know what you're talking about that things have gotten worse.

And that data from UVA, Mich, and NU are for the co2011, which again did OCI during the worse recession in history. Things have gotten better, at least in New York.

Firm work/hiring is down across the board right now. That's what matters to someone picking from these schools now.

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:47 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
thelawyler wrote:Things have not gotten worse from the Class of 2011, who did OCI right when the crash happened. And New York has been the quickest to rebound, with a lot of the V10 having class sizes near their pre-recession numbers. Considering NYU/CLS feed into the V10, I don't know what you're talking about that things have gotten worse.

And that data from UVA, Mich, and NU are for the co2011, which again did OCI during the worse recession in history. Things have gotten better, at least in New York.
Firm work/hiring is down across the board right now. That's what matters to someone picking from these schools now.

Yeah, so we'll see what happens in Fall 2012 OCI, but "unconfirmed" numbers for that will only start trickling out later in the winter. But for now, Fall 2011 OCI reports is the best thing we can go by intead of relying on data that is essentially 3 years old (recent nlj numbers).

somewhatwayward · Post by **somewhatwayward** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:27 pm

thelawyler wrote:From last fall's OCI thread, it seems that 85% of Columbia who who did OCI got biglaw, and 80% of NYU who participated in OCI also got biglaw. Not that big of a gap. Also, I think the percentage of people who opted out of participating in OCI at NYU was much higher. So there definitely is some truth to it.

Ignoring BW's projection of his experiences onto all other non-HYS T14s, the percentages of the class that got at least one offer from CLS EIP are: 78% for the class of 2011, 85% for the class of 2012, and 92% for the class of 2013. It remains to be seen whether class of 2014 is better although my sense is same or maybe a little worse. The source for these numbers is OCS.

OCS also passes out a booklet of statistics organized by firm that includes how many screeners, how many CBs offered and accepted, how many offers given and, finally, how many offers accepted. You can add the numbers in the last column and divide by the number of participants to get a rough estimate of how many people got offers. This number may be deflated bc some people get offers but decide that the offers they did get are not good enough to sway them away from what they really want to do. I ran this calculation on the class of 2011 data, and I got 78% (this class was the most risk-averse class so they likely accepted their offers rather than taking the risk of trying to get PI or gov and failing and being unemployed; class of 2011 risk-aversion was further revealed to me by the fact that my c/o 2011 mentor at my firm this summer told me everyone was so worried abt getting an offer that on the first day of the summer program that they all worse suits even though they were told repeatedly that they did not have to whereas this year's summers all worse business casual; I digress). 2Ls who just went through EIP have c/o 2012 data. I do not have this, so I have not run this calculation although if someone does have it and would run it to see if you get around 85%, that would be helpful.

Anyway, a few things to keep in mind as to why the percentage of people who get an offer at EIP is about 20 percentage points higher than the number of people employed by NLJ 250 firms after graduation:
-not everyone participates in EIP (usually it is 80-90% of the class); these people are not included when calculating people who get an offer from EIP but are included when calculating the percentage of people in NLJ 250 firms after graduation
-not everyone who gets an offer for a summer position ends up at a firm after graduation: some decline the offer and use their summer to work in PI/gov/small firm; some get no-offered; some work at the firm for the summer to make $30K and get an offer but decide to leave for PI/gov/small firm/academia at that point; some clerk and decide never to return to a firm, etc; these people will be included in the numerator of people who receive offers but not the numerator of people working in NLJ 250 firms
-some firms that interview at EIP are not NLJ 250; people receive offer from these and may go work for them, so they count toward the numerator of people who received offers from EIP but not the numerator of people employed by NLJ 250 after graduation

I personally think these factors completely explain the difference between the post-graduation NLJ 250 percentage and the percentage of people who got offers through EIP. I don't think that OCS is lying or manipulating statistics when they tell students that c/o 2012 was 85% and c/o 2013 was 92% receiving offers from EIP.

I think the reason Penn's firm placement is close to NYU is mainly its smaller class size (and perhaps some self-selection by NYU students). That is not to say don't go to Penn; that small class size is a big benefit to students. If Penn increased its class size to 500 like NYU, it would struggle to get the quality of students NYU gets, bringing the overall quality of its student body down. I also think class size (plus proximity to NYC) also explains Penn's superior firm placement when compared with MV.

I think Columbia's benefit when compared to Penn's could be that each general tier of firm might reach a little deeper into Columbia's class than Penn's (this is speculation to some extent but I thought I saw a comparison of V10 placement where Columbia had a higher percentage of the class in V10, which is really saying something given that CLS is more than 2x the size of Penn). This same principle also means that there might be a little more of a safety net for CLS students in the bottom of the class.

I think I probably could've gotten some $$ at Penn (171/3.9/HYPS), but I didn't apply. I kind of wish I had now, which I guess is my way of saying that, at sticker, I would pick Columbia, but once you bring $$ into the picture, things are different.

All that being said, I still think that either of these schools is a pretty big risk at sticker. Just because, say, 80-85% of the c/o 2012 has had a good outcome at this point in time, does not mean that they won't lose that job way before they can pay their loans off and struggle to find another, etc. It is really, really rough out there....another reason that $$ starts to look really good.

Rahviveh · Post by **Rahviveh** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:40 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
thelawyler wrote:From last fall's OCI thread, it seems that 85% of Columbia who who did OCI got biglaw, and 80% of NYU who participated in OCI also got biglaw. Not that big of a gap. Also, I think the percentage of people who opted out of participating in OCI at NYU was much higher. So there definitely is some truth to it.
Ignoring BW's projection of his experiences onto all other non-HYS T14s, the percentages of the class that got at least one offer from EIP are: 78% for the class of 2011, 85% for the class of 2012, and 92% for the class of 2013. It remains to be seen whether class of 2014 is better although my sense is same or maybe a little worse. The source for these numbers is OCS.

OCS also passes out a booklet of statistics organized by firm that includes how many screeners, how many CBs offered and accepted, how many offers given and, finally, how many offers accepted. You can add the numbers in the last column and divide by the number of participants to get a rough estimate of how many people got offers. This number may be deflated bc some people get offers but decide that the offers they did get are not good enough to sway them away from what they really want to do. I ran this calculation on the class of 2011 data, and I got 78% (this class was the most risk-averse class so they likely accepted their offers rather than taking the risk of trying to get PI or gov and failing and being unemployed; class of 2011 risk-aversion was further revealed to me by the fact that my c/o 2011 mentor at my firm this summer told me everyone was so worried abt getting an offer that on the first day of the summer program that they all worse suits even though they were told repeatedly that they did not have to whereas this year's summers all worse business casual; I digress). 2Ls who just went through EIP have c/o 2012 data. I do not have this, so I have not run this calculation although if someone does have it and would run it to see if you get around 85%, that would be helpful.

Anyway, a few things to keep in mind as to why the percentage of people who get an offer at EIP is about 20 percentage points higher than the number of people employed by NLJ 250 firms after graduation:
-not everyone participates in EIP (usually it is 80-90% of the class); these people are not included when calculating people who get an offer from EIP but are included when calculating the percentage of people in NLJ 250 firms after graduation
-not everyone who gets an offer for a summer position ends up at a firm after graduation: some decline the offer and use their summer to work in PI/gov/small firm; some get no-offered; some work at the firm for the summer to make $30K and get an offer but decide to leave for PI/gov/small firm/academia at that point; some clerk and decide never to return to a firm, etc; these people will be included in the numerator of people who receive offers but not the numerator of people working in NLJ 250 firms
-some firms that interview at EIP are not NLJ 250; people receive offer from these and may go work for them, so they count toward the numerator of people who received offers from EIP but not the numerator of people employed by NLJ 250 after graduation

I personally think these factors completely explain the difference between the post-graduation NLJ 250 percentage and the percentage of people who got offers through EIP. I don't think that OCS is lying or manipulating statistics when they tell students that c/o 2012 was 85% and c/o 2013 was 92% receiving offers from EIP.

I think the reason Penn's firm placement is close to NYU is mainly its smaller class size (and perhaps some self-selection by NYU students). That is not to say don't go to Penn; that small class size is a big benefit to students. If Penn increased its class size to 500 like NYU, it would struggle to get the quality of students NYU gets, bringing the overall quality of its student body down. I also think class size (plus proximity to NYC) also explains Penn's superior firm placement when compared with MV.

I think Columbia's benefit when compared to Penn's could be that each general tier of firm might reach a little deeper into Columbia's class than Penn's (this is speculation to some extent but I thought I saw a comparison of V10 placement where Columbia had a higher percentage of the class in V10, which is really saying something given that CLS is more than 2x the size of Penn). This same principle also means that there might be a little more of a safety net for CLS students in the bottom of the class.

I think I probably could've gotten some $$ at Penn (171/3.9/HYPS), but I didn't apply. I kind of wish I had now, which I guess is my way of saying that, at sticker, I would pick Columbia, but once you bring $$ into the picture, things are different.

All that being said, I still think that either of these schools is a pretty big risk at sticker. Just because, say, 80-85% of the c/o 2012 has had a good outcome at this point in time, does not mean that they won't lose that job way before they can pay their loans off and struggle to find another, etc. It is really, really rough out there....another reason that $$ starts to look really good.

This is all for CLS right? IS it possible to get these numbers for NYU, Penn and Chi? Would they be similar?

somewhatwayward · Post by **somewhatwayward** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:52 pm

^
yes those are for CLS, and I just updated the post to make it clear

I do not know where to get hose numbers for other schools

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:36 pm

Thanks for the post there wayward. I actually haven't heard about Penn's statistics, but I am sure it is fairly good as well in terms of people who got jobs from OCI. At least for NYU/CLS, you'll know based on the TLSers who post the data here.

Crowing · Post by **Crowing** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:49 pm

This topic is definitely relevant to my interests. I've been weighing ED Penn vs. ED NYU and still have yet to make a final decision. I can see NYU having a slight placement advantage (esp. in NYC biglaw) but looking at --LinkRemoved--, it appears that with my numbers an ED to NYU gives me maybe a 80% chance of acceptance while ED to Penn is 95%+. I like the idea of gaining familiarity directly with NYC at NYU, but Penn's smaller class size is also appealing (both because of LS atmosphere and post-graduation opportunities).

Ofc, if there is some sort of real separation between the two schools I would not hesitate to look one way or the other. But from what I've seen, the general differences are not tremendous - Penn does a little better overall in biglaw, but NYU seems to do better in terms of overall employment.

Fwiw, the following info is from LST.

CLS (c/o 2011)
94.1% long term, bar-required
8.1% federal clerkship
61.4% large firm
14.3% public service
61.6% to NY

NYU (c/o 2011)
89.3% long term, bar-required
10.9% federal clerkship
43.1% large firm
24.9% public service
62.6% to NY

UPenn (c/o 2011)
84.3% long term, bar-required
9.1% federal clerkship
58% large firm
6.2% public service
38.3% to NY

thelawyler · Post by **thelawyler** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 6:32 pm

If you definitely want NYC, I'd lean toward NYU. Also, not sure if feeding into V10 instead of lower V100 firms constitutes as better job security and better lateral options, but NYU definitely feeds more into the tippy-top firms. So if you do well but not amazing at both schools, you're probably more likely to get those jobs? Not really sure but I think something like 30-40% of CLS/NYU place into V10.

Money or wanting to work elsewhere definitely changes this, but if it is sticker at both and you want NYC for sure after graduation, I'd take the shot at the NYU ED. 80% is pretty good shot, and with declining applications, I'd put it even higher than that.

banjo · Post by **banjo** » Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:39 pm

In the boom years, CLS edged out its peers in elite placement. Not sure if the difference is still this huge.

V5: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
V10: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
V25: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
V50: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html
V100: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
Selectivity: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ement.html

Crowing wrote:But from what I've seen, the general differences are not tremendous - Penn does a little better overall in biglaw, but NYU seems to do better in terms of overall employment.

LST does not separate out school-funded employment. Take a look at these two threads instead:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3&t=181723

^ETA: There are a lot of caveats/qualifications to rayiner's data -- I think it's worth reading through the replies as well.

ETA2: A little unrelated, but Chicago has released summer data for the c/o 2013. 81% worked at firms apparently: http://www.law.uchicago.edu/prospective ... oymentdata.

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