NYU vs. Duke for BIGLAW Forum

[PaulKriske]

humor me...

goal: biglaw (NYC DC LA - big city big law), and clerking if possible.

is NYU at sticker TCR over Duke with $70,000?

if not, how much money would you need to choose NYU over Duke in that case?

[dabbadon8]

Would definitely take duke (though this is coming from a duke student). With the difference in COL + interest, there is ~100k difference in COA. I can't see spending 100k more for NYU given the relative similarity in job prospects.

[PaulKriske]

Would definitely take duke (though this is coming from a duke student). With the difference in COL + interest, there is ~100k difference in COA. I can't see spending 100k more for NYU given the relative similarity in job prospects.

yeah, that's what i'm thinking.

i wonder how much of Duke's placement into NC is self-selection...?

[birdlaw117]

What market do you want most? If NYC is your top goal NYU is definitely worth the cost difference. If you prefer DC, Duke starts to look a lot better.

I'm guessing that since you put NYC, DC and LA, you're pretty indifferent. Considering the enormous difference in the number of jobs in NYC compared to the others, that effectively means NYC.

[PaulKriske]

What market do you want most? If NYC is your top goal NYU is definitely worth the cost difference. If you prefer DC, Duke starts to look a lot better.

I'm guessing that since you put NYC, DC and LA, you're pretty indifferent. Considering the enormous difference in the number of jobs in NYC compared to the others, that effectively means NYC.

more or less, NYC. but, truth be told, idgaf.

so you would argue for NYU at sticker? or would you need a little cash to smooth things over?

[dabbadon8]

What market do you want most? If NYC is your top goal NYU is definitely worth the cost difference. If you prefer DC, Duke starts to look a lot better.

I'm guessing that since you put NYC, DC and LA, you're pretty indifferent. Considering the enormous difference in the number of jobs in NYC compared to the others, that effectively means NYC.

This is objectively awful advice. Paying 100k for a relatively small increase in placement power into the easiest legal market is an objectively terrible idea, especially given that people stay at those jobs for 3-5 years typically. It's cool you are going to NYU, but I don't think you could support an argument for paying 100k more for NYU for clerking or biglaw.

[beachbum]

What market do you want most? If NYC is your top goal NYU is definitely worth the cost difference. If you prefer DC, Duke starts to look a lot better.

I'm guessing that since you put NYC, DC and LA, you're pretty indifferent. Considering the enormous difference in the number of jobs in NYC compared to the others, that effectively means NYC.

This is objectively awful advice. Paying 100k for a relatively small increase in placement power into the easiest legal market is an objectively terrible idea, especially given that people stay at those jobs for 3-5 years typically. It's cool you are going to NYU, but I don't think you could support an argument for paying 100k more for NYU for clerking or biglaw.

+1. $100k is a ton of money.

[birdlaw117]

What market do you want most? If NYC is your top goal NYU is definitely worth the cost difference. If you prefer DC, Duke starts to look a lot better.

I'm guessing that since you put NYC, DC and LA, you're pretty indifferent. Considering the enormous difference in the number of jobs in NYC compared to the others, that effectively means NYC.

more or less, NYC. but, truth be told, idgaf.

so you would argue for NYU at sticker? or would you need a little cash to smooth things over?

Definitely try and negotiate for more $$ if you can. But NYU is still a good investment at sticker and it gives you the best chance to reach your goals. Duke is also a good investment but gives you a lower chance to reach your goals.

You should also note that it's two Duke students telling you it's a bad idea to not take the money. A lot of it comes down to risk aversion, but the risk is actually less likely to fall in at NYU.

Here's the thing, $100k of debt from Duke will fuck you over just like $200k of debt from NYU will if you don't get big law. But NYU has better safety nets in their superior LRAP program and better job prospects.

And the relatively small increase in placement power is understating things. When the median student at Duke is fighting for any big law job and the median student at NYU is fighting to get a V10, maybe V20 job, I think that's telling.

[PaulKriske]

What market do you want most? If NYC is your top goal NYU is definitely worth the cost difference. If you prefer DC, Duke starts to look a lot better.

I'm guessing that since you put NYC, DC and LA, you're pretty indifferent. Considering the enormous difference in the number of jobs in NYC compared to the others, that effectively means NYC.

more or less, NYC. but, truth be told, idgaf.

so you would argue for NYU at sticker? or would you need a little cash to smooth things over?

Definitely try and negotiate for more $$ if you can. But NYU is still a good investment at sticker and it gives you the best chance to reach your goals. Duke is also a good investment but gives you a lower chance to reach your goals.

You should also note that it's two Duke students telling you it's a bad idea to not take the money. A lot of it comes down to risk aversion, but the risk is actually less likely to fall in at NYU.

Here's the thing, $100k of debt from Duke will fuck you over just like $200k of debt from NYU will if you don't get big law. But NYU has better safety nets in their superior LRAP program and better job prospects.

And the relatively small increase in placement power is understating things. When the median student at Duke is fighting for any big law job and the median student at NYU is fighting to get a V10, maybe V20 job, I think that's telling.

ah, but how's the huge class size and in-class competition at NYU?

[lawyerwannabe]

I would take Duke. But I am another Duke student lol.

[birdlaw117]

ah, but how's the huge class size and in-class competition at NYU?

Honestly I've never felt like it is at all competitive and I really like the class size. I have directly helped or received help from probably 2/3 of the people in my section of 90. The class size allows there to be various networking opportunities literally every single day. Being in the middle of all the big law firms and having all of those opportunities can certainly have a positive impact.

Since you want to work in a big city down the road, is going to school in a big city a priority? Or would you rather have the smaller community experience before that? This is probably the most important question to ask yourself before you choose between these options.

[PaulKriske]

I would take Duke. But I am another Duke student lol.

your previous comment seemed correct.

[birdlaw117]

I would take Duke. But I am another Duke student lol.

I'll respond to you comment before you edited it if you want:

Only about 55% of NYU gets BigLaw + Clerkships so I find it hard to believe that median is competing for V20 at NYU . . .

You're using data that came from something like 2/3 of NLJ250 firms that was supplemented by some schools but not by others. NYU falls into the category of not supplementing the data. So basically what I'm saying is, good job on using incredibly reliable data that is obviously great for accurate decision making.

Edit: Here is NYU's rebuttal to accusations of fraud relating to the same data: http://www.law.nyu.edu/news/REBUTTAL

[PaulKriske]

ah, but how's the huge class size and in-class competition at NYU?

Honestly I've never felt like it is at all competitive and I really like the class size. I have directly helped or received help from probably 2/3 of the people in my section of 90. The class size allows there to be various networking opportunities literally every single day. Being in the middle of all the big law firms and having all of those opportunities can certainly have a positive impact.

Since you want to work in a big city down the road, is going to school in a big city a priority? Or would you rather have the smaller community experience before that? This is probably the most important question to ask yourself before you choose between these options.

yeah. my degrees are from a larger school, but again, irdgaf. that's the problem. i just want 80 ish hour weeks and challenging work.

so, it seems as though NYU would be the choice. but 100k?

like... $100,000?

[lawyerwannabe]

LOL. Not a quick enough edit!

I did not see the PI placement either. Anyways, NYU's placement is superior. I will not deny that. But when COL is factored in, along with interest on loans, NYU is going to cost over $100k more than Duke. It is not, IMO, $100k better. Duke places about 60% of its class into BigLaw + Art. III Clerkships. That percentage does not include some NC firm placement, which many of Duke's top students go for (the DLJ EIC is working in NC this summer along with some other Law Review members).

[birdlaw117]

ah, but how's the huge class size and in-class competition at NYU?

Honestly I've never felt like it is at all competitive and I really like the class size. I have directly helped or received help from probably 2/3 of the people in my section of 90. The class size allows there to be various networking opportunities literally every single day. Being in the middle of all the big law firms and having all of those opportunities can certainly have a positive impact.

Since you want to work in a big city down the road, is going to school in a big city a priority? Or would you rather have the smaller community experience before that? This is probably the most important question to ask yourself before you choose between these options.

yeah. my degrees are from a larger school, but again, irdgaf. that's the problem. i just want 80 ish hour weeks and challenging work.

so, it seems as though NYU would be the choice. but 100k?

like... $100,000?

You're wanting to go to one of three markets. Duke puts 40% of its students into those markets (counting California as only LA, which is clearly inaccurate), while NYU puts 75% of its students into those markets (again, the CA/LA thing).

Basically the only thing in Duke's favor is the intimidation of a six-figure number. But in reality, you're looking at a significant debt burden with both choices. Your results are going to be one of two things, you're either successful at getting big law, or you aren't. If you're successful, all is well. If you aren't, you're fucked. At both places. Your chances of not being fucked are higher at NYU.

[lawyerwannabe]

Show me any data where the disparity is as big as you claim?

[birdlaw117]

LOL. Not a quick enough edit!

I did not see the PI placement either. Anyways, NYU's placement is superior. I will not deny that. But when COL is factored in, along with interest on loans, NYU is going to cost over $100k more than Duke. It is not, IMO, $100k better. Duke places about 60% of its class into BigLaw + Art. III Clerkships. That percentage does not include some NC firm placement, which many of Duke's top students go for (the DLJ EIC is working in NC this summer along with some other Law Review members).

PI is certainly a factor, but it's difficult to measure self-selection. Something that I meant to, but forgot to include in my post above about the locations because Duke clearly has better placement power into those markets than 40%.

[birdlaw117]

Show me any data where the disparity is as big as you claim?

What disparity are you talking about? Firm placement?

[PaulKriske]

now, if i were to throw in possible academia aspirations later on, would that conclusively establish NYU as the winner?

[birdlaw117]

now, if i were to throw in possible academia aspirations later on, would that conclusively establish NYU as the winner?

No. That shouldn't have an impact. I think NYU placed the most of any school into academia this past year or something like that. But that doesn't mean it's superior in academia by any means. The odds of it are so low plus the differences are so small, it really doesn't matter. I would also guess that Duke's smaller class size would be an advantage for this, but I don't know.

[dabbadon8]

Show me any data where the disparity is as big as you claim?

What disparity are you talking about? Firm placement?

how about disparities in general?

[lawyerwannabe]

Show me any data where the disparity is as big as you claim?

What disparity are you talking about? Firm placement?

The disparity is not 75% to 40%. If it is, I would like to see anything that says that because I have never seen the data. The difference is not that great.

[birdlaw117]

Show me any data where the disparity is as big as you claim?

What disparity are you talking about? Firm placement?

how about disparities in general?

I don't know what this means.

[dabbadon8]

Show me any data where the disparity is as big as you claim?

What disparity are you talking about? Firm placement?

how about disparities in general?

I don't know what this means.

Provide some data to support disparities in placement generally. Firms, PI, Clerkships.