URM, HU(20K) vs W & M (10k) Forum

[Jeopardy06]

Just pulled out of William and Mary to go to Howard Law.

1) Howard is giving me twice as much as WM.

2) Housing down here is cheaper for me. I live in my parents rental property with roommates (it costs me around 750 dollars a month w/ the supplemental rental income from roommates). If I moved to Williamsburg, I'd have to look for housing.

3) I have fraternity and other networking connections at Howard and in the DC area.

4) I have no intention of practicing in Virginia.

5) I'm told Howard's recruiting is very helpful for URMs.

I spoke w/ my mentors and several of the attorneys that I currently work for before making the decision, but there's nothing like the anonymous internet when it comes to true tough love.

What say you forum? Thoughts? Have I made the wrong decision? Should I run and beg W & M not to give my seat away?

[rickgrimes69]

IMO neither school is worth what you would be paying.

[irish1485]

Howards tuition is only ~30k so it could be worth it with the 20k scholly..

But remember with that scholarship I think you have to remain in the top 15% of the class to retain it, which means there's a real possibility that you will end up paying sticker at Howard your last 2 years.

[flem]

But remember with that scholarship I think you have to remain in the top 15% of the class to retain it, which means there's a real possibility that you will end up paying sticker at Howard your last 2 years.

LOL what a fucking TTT stip

What are your career goals broheim

[Nova]

LOL what a fucking TTT stip

[Jeopardy06]

But remember with that scholarship I think you have to remain in the top 15% of the class to retain it, which means there's a real possibility that you will end up paying sticker at Howard your last 2 years.

LOL what a fucking TTT stip

What are your career goals broheim

@ tfleming09
Here's the goal:

international contract firm OR Biglaw anywhere in the United States (the best place that takes me) for two or three years max.

Then I'm interested in doing international contracts and staying in DC for any and all stateside activities. New York may make sense as well, but i'm a bit foggy on why other than it being one of the largest markets. I'm West African and I have contacts overseas.. I'd be trying to build a client base of companies exporting/importing or doing business in the United States based on the connections i've made in life so far. Lofty goal I know, but in a nutshell I'm interested in contracts.

[Teflon_Jeff]

Neither.

That Stip is laughably ridiculous, and neither school will get you where you want to go.

[JetsFan1990]

Neither.

That Stip is laughably ridiculous, and neither school will get you where you want to go.

This.

[top30man]

Your career goals are crazy compared to these schools. If you truly want big law, even for a couple years, you need to retake. What do you mean "international contracts?"

[20121109]

Um...I think some people are relatively misinformed.

Now I can't speak to your international contract goals, but if you're a URM and want biglaw, Howard is actually a very good option. Their employment stats are quite comparable to T20 schools. Retake if you want to, but attending Howard would not be such a terrible idea. If that stip is actually top 15% percent, then you have even more incentive to retake.

[ahnhub]

That stipulation--do you lose the whole thing if you're not top 15%? I've never heard of anything that harsh.

[Teflon_Jeff]

Um...I think some people are relatively misinformed.

Now I can't speak to your international contract goals, but if you're a URM and want biglaw, Howard is actually a very good option. Their employment stats are quite comparable to T20 schools. Retake if you want to, but attending Howard would not be such a terrible idea. If that stip is actually top 15% percent, then you have even more incentive to retake.

47.8% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.
65.6% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
76.4% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

[kwais]

for serious, what is international contracts?

[Aberzombie1892]

Um...I think some people are relatively misinformed.

Now I can't speak to your international contract goals, but if you're a URM and want biglaw, Howard is actually a very good option. Their employment stats are quite comparable to T20 schools. Retake if you want to, but attending Howard would not be such a terrible idea. If that stip is actually top 15% percent, then you have even more incentive to retake.

47.8% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.
65.6% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
76.4% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

This. Howard is essentially a "trap law school" (term courtesy of Paul Campos) for URMs due to its deceptively strong OCI - the problem is, very few of those 500+ employers at OCI actually hire people.

[20121109]

Um...I think some people are relatively misinformed.

Now I can't speak to your international contract goals, but if you're a URM and want biglaw, Howard is actually a very good option. Their employment stats are quite comparable to T20 schools. Retake if you want to, but attending Howard would not be such a terrible idea. If that stip is actually top 15% percent, then you have even more incentive to retake.

47.8% of graduates were known to be employed in long-term, full-time legal jobs.
65.6% graduates were employed in long-term jobs.
76.4% graduates were employed in full-time jobs.

This. Howard is essentially a "trap law school" (term courtesy of Paul Campos) for URMs due to its deceptively strong OCI - the problem is, very few of those 500+ employers at OCI actually hire people.

Appears like I stand corrected. Thank you for the insight; I was always under the impression that for URMs, Howard is a good choice. I wonder why so many employers come only to hire so few?

[sharktankdean]

From what I've heard Howard is great for URMs as long as they are in the top 15%-20%. I think the firms at OCI come in just to get these group of people as it serves at a way to increase diversity and get the top ranked students at the same time. It may explain why some v10 firms don't go to DNCG but go to Howard.



If you think the stipend will motivate u to stay at the top of your class u may have made the right decision but if not then u could retake.


Also how do fraternity ties help u in DC? many people say this but I have never seen this actually help in reality.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: Any other law school options ? What are your numbers ?

[Jeopardy06]

From what I've heard Howard is great for URMs as long as they are in the top 15%-20%. I think the firms at OCI come in just to get these group of people as it serves at a way to increase diversity and get the top ranked students at the same time. It may explain why some v10 firms don't go to DNCG but go to Howard.



If you think the stipend will motivate u to stay at the top of your class u may have made the right decision but if not then u could retake.


Also how do fraternity ties help u in DC? many people say this but I have never seen this actually help in reality.

I didn't mean to over state the whole frat thing. Its not like some guy I don't know is going to walk up to me and give me a job, lol. However on the networking side of things, Its pretty simple:

I have a lot of friends in the legal industry in the District. Frat/friends I went to school with/family etc. I have a better network here than any were else in the country. Going to W & M would be me essentially STARTING over... Talked to the BSU prez of the school and he mentioned that the connections I have in DC aren't going anywhere. I thought about it and still decided that its better to remain in close proximity to the district since I have no real intention practicing in in VA.

The stipend will definitely keep me motivated. I expected to stay in DC. GWU, GTown or HU were my targets. Its so much cheaper for me here. I have a HOUSE and roommates. The mortgage is covered by roommates, my loans will only go to utilities.

I'm not too happy that I was wait-listed at GWU, but again... it IS expensive and it IS NOT T14. May consider transferring dependent on grades.

@Aberzombie1892: They definitely sold me on the URM recruiting thing. Loved the campus... was afraid of the unknown at W & M. Also got into UBalt, Catholic and Rugters (camden?).

@Kwais: International contract law is exactly what it sounds like... Contracts + International Business and International Law.

Think Bill of Laden, international purchasing, Contracting principals, Import and export laws, Countertrade and offsets, U.N. Convention on the International Sale of Goods, Dispute resolution in international sales, Arbitration rules and procedures throughout different countries and Offset agreements. Think Law + IBUS (international Business), International Trade and IPE (international political economy) stuff.

@ CanadianWolf: 2.8 undergrad (~3.4 + in major and business classes taken). Graduated with a B.A in Poli Sci and a secondary concentration in International Affairs (international economics)- this is a foreign lang req away from two majors. LSAT 161.

I'm 26, I work at as a transaction real estate paralegal making a sub 50k salary. Not sure the opportunity cost of staying out school another year is worth it. I've spun my wheels enough; its time to do the damn thing.

-J

[Teflon_Jeff]

Wolf, retake.

I have a 2.66 /171 and received substantially better offers than this. Score a 168 even and you should see some passably good offers off the WL next cycle.

Seriously, study hard, LSAT up in October, and reap the rewards. It is the best decision.

[CanadianWolf]

If I understand correctly, the total COA for your first year at Howard will cost about $20,000 ($10,000 tuition & $10,000 housing & books). Very reasonable for Wash DC, but don't count on renewing any scholarship with a top 15% stipulation.

If, for example, you finished slightly above median after your first year & lost your scholarship, would you stay in law school & pay the extra $20,000 per year for dismal job prospects or return to your paralegal position ?

[sharktankdean]

In regards to Howard vs W&M I think u made the right decision but u have to also consider if u would be happy at Howard if you lost your scholarship. Will it still be worth it? Take this into consideration if you don't want to retake.

In summary if u go to Howard just work your ass off.

[Aberzombie1892]

OP, if you attend Howard, are you comfortable making sub $50K post graduation from law school? If not, you really should reconsider. I'm not sure what your expectations are, but I noticed that you mentioned being impatient and that you are currently making less than $50K as a paralegal. Do you believe that Howard graduates, on average, make a lot more than that?

[Jeopardy06]

In regards to Howard vs W&M I think u made the right decision but u have to also consider if u would be happy at Howard if you lost your scholarship. Will it still be worth it? Take this into consideration if you don't want to retake.

In summary if u go to Howard just work your ass off.

That's the plan. I've already started 'Studying'. Reading getting to maybe right now.

This has been a great thread so far guys, thanks again guys/gals for all the advice. Haven't gotten on LEEWS. Thoughts? May start trying to form a study group, but that's for a different board.

If I understand correctly, the total COA for your first year at Howard will cost about $20,000 ($10,000 tuition & $10,000 housing & books). Very reasonable for Wash DC, but don't count on renewing any scholarship with a top 15% stipulation.

If, for example, you finished slightly above median after your first year & lost your scholarship, would you stay in law school & pay the extra $20,000 per year for dismal job prospects or return to your paralegal position ?

Absolutely NO way am I staying a paralegal! Lol!

Its 35,000 Tuition so the scholarship is less than 2/3. I'm currently looking at the plethora of external scholarship options to supplement this. Hopefully, even if that scholarship is lost (I'm pretty sure its NOT a 15% stip because that would be awful)

I would and have considered transferring elsewhere if: I do really well and can get GWU or other t20 OR for some odd reason, the cost of going here goes up significantly.

Um...I think some people are relatively misinformed.

Now I can't speak to your international contract goals, but if you're a URM and want biglaw, Howard is actually a very good option. Their employment stats are quite comparable to T20 schools. Retake if you want to, but attending Howard would not be such a terrible idea. If that stip is actually top 15% percent, then you have even more incentive to retake.

This seems like well informed advice. I'm not retaking, I've thought it over. Retook once, and even though I was scoring 165+ on practice tests and I only got the score that i discussed earlier in this thread (first time I took, it was a really bad day).

Attorneys that I know and Trust speak highly of the school for the employment prospects. I'll be okay with sub-100k jobs starting out if its the right environment, but I in NO way expect or will be looking for jobs that pay less than 50k. The thought of that is absolutely abysmal and would make it hard for me to justify leaving the workforce now.

Short of a market crash or some apocalyptic paradigm shift in the entry level legal market, I don't think its even worth discussing.... yuk. I'm not sure why this is always brought up. Are you saying its unlikely that I'll be make at least 75k with two years of prior legal work experience?

If I were to do something like that, in the worst case scenario, I would hope it would just be a 'gap job' and that I would be offered more than that within 6 months.

[TTTehehe]

What say you forum? Thoughts? Have I made the wrong decision? Should I run and beg W & M not to give my seat away?

Wish you had come on the forum before pulling out of W&M.

[Teflon_Jeff]

Snowflake time.

OP, it is very likely you will not be even employed in a legal job, let alone one that for sure pays more than 50K. If you believe otherwise, you are willfully deluding yourself. The numbers were posted. More graduates were not in JD positions than were.

Everyone in Law school will work hard, and everyone hopes to be in the top 10%. But, they can't be, and they won't be. You're planning on it, and that's a very dangerous plan when attending a school with such dismal job prospects.

Anyway, that's the reasonable response. I'm sure you'll go anyway, and we really do hope you do well. It's just not the smart bet, sadly.