Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year? Forum

[evolved306]

Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year?

Went to UNC undergrad so I have a gut repulsion to Duke. However, it would be close to home and a few friends which is a plus for me. Cost of living is also cheaper at Duke. I might want to into political/legal consulting for politicians or political entities later in my career so Georgetown might be better for that. Plus D.C. is really cool. What do you guys think?

Update: Duke Law is offering me $67,500
Update: Georgetown is offering $90,000

[Ruxin1]

Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year?

Went to UNC undergrad so I have a gut repulsion to Duke. However, it would be close to home and a few friends which is a plus for me. Cost of living is also cheaper at Duke. I might want to into political/legal consulting for politicians or political entities later in my career so Georgetown might be better for that. Plus D.C. is really cool. What do you guys think?

You're gonna need biglaw to pay back your debt from either, and the COL makes COA even closer, so Duke and it's not even close. Numbers?

[fatduck]

when people say that it's reasonable to go to a TTT over T14 with sticker, they're usually referring to a full scholarship (often with a stipend). $20k/yr just isn't enough.

[Aberzombie1892]

when people say that it's reasonable to go to a TTT over T14 with sticker, they're usually referring to a full scholarship (often with a stipend). $20k/yr just isn't enough.

Ba-Zing!

OP - But seriously, what is the COA at each?

[StarLightSpectre]

when people say that it's reasonable to go to a TTT over T14 with sticker, they're usually referring to a full scholarship (often with a stipend). $20k/yr just isn't enough.

At first I was like... Dafuq?

But then I was like... halulz.

[DaleCooper]

Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year?

Went to UNC undergrad so I have a gut repulsion to Duke. However, it would be close to home and a few friends which is a plus for me. Cost of living is also cheaper at Duke. I might want to into political/legal consulting for politicians or political entities later in my career so Georgetown might be better for that. Plus D.C. is really cool. What do you guys think?

I also went to UNC for undergrad, and I just started the summer program at Duke... we're tied with Duke, Harvard, and Yale for the most represented school in the summer class. The law school feels nothing like the undergrad culture we so love to hate (at least not anymore than every T14 is going to); it actually kind of reminds me of Carolina in some weird ways.

It seems like the majority of the summer class ended up choosing Duke over Georgetown, Cornell, and exactly one random MVP.* Everybody had more or less the same reasons: Georgetown has a huge and unwieldy class that hurts its placement (especially in DC), Cornell is cold and snowy, and they just didn't get the same feeling of belonging during their MVP visit that they did during their Duke visit.

Also, in my case, North Carolina is home and DC is where I think I want to go when I graduate... but I'd rather compete with 50 DC-gunning Duke students than 400 DC-gunning Georgetown students or 150 DC-gunning Virginia students. I also wanted to keep North Carolina open as an option. Your calculus might be different, and certainly nobody would blame you for wanting to go ahead and get to DC three years earlier.

In short: Both are really good schools, though Georgetown suffers for its size and Duke suffers for its undergrads. I assume you've visited both... what is your gut telling you?


*Seriously, I'm pretty sure Deans Zearfoss, Dugas, and Post sit around in a bunker deciding which school each shotgun applicant is going to get.

[3ThrowAway99]

Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year?

Went to UNC undergrad so I have a gut repulsion to Duke. However, it would be close to home and a few friends which is a plus for me. Cost of living is also cheaper at Duke. I might want to into political/legal consulting for politicians or political entities later in my career so Georgetown might be better for that. Plus D.C. is really cool. What do you guys think?

You're gonna need biglaw to pay back your debt from either, and the COL makes COA even closer, so Duke and it's not even close. Numbers?

So far the poll would disagree with you (that it's not a close call). Also 60k off tuition isn't negligible, and if he doesn't get biglaw from Duke (which could happen) then GULC could end up being the better option. The desire to end up in DC also weighs in Georgetown's favor.

[Ruxin1]

Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year?

Went to UNC undergrad so I have a gut repulsion to Duke. However, it would be close to home and a few friends which is a plus for me. Cost of living is also cheaper at Duke. I might want to into political/legal consulting for politicians or political entities later in my career so Georgetown might be better for that. Plus D.C. is really cool. What do you guys think?

You're gonna need biglaw to pay back your debt from either, and the COL makes COA even closer, so Duke and it's not even close. Numbers?

So far the poll would disagree with you (that it's not a close call). Also 60k off tuition isn't negligible, and if he doesn't get biglaw from Duke (which could happen) then GULC could end up being the better option. The desire to end up in DC also weighs in Georgetown's favor.

Just because you'd be fucked missing biglaw from duke doesn't mean you are in any better position from having 60K off, when you are still > 150k in debt.

[rickgrimes69]

I'm headed to Duke in the fall so I'm biased. But Durham will be substantially cheaper than DC, enough to cut that scholarship in half. $30k isn't enough to choose a school with significantly worse biglaw prospects (-11% c/o 2011), which you'll need to service the debt. Unless you go the federal route, which Duke rocked last year - 12% federal clerkship placement (twice that of GULC), and tied with Penn and Berkeley for 4th highest.

[/Blatant Duke trolling]

[evolved306]

Duke at Sticker or Georgetown with 20,000 a year?

Went to UNC undergrad so I have a gut repulsion to Duke. However, it would be close to home and a few friends which is a plus for me. Cost of living is also cheaper at Duke. I might want to into political/legal consulting for politicians or political entities later in my career so Georgetown might be better for that. Plus D.C. is really cool. What do you guys think?

I also went to UNC for undergrad, and I just started the summer program at Duke... we're tied with Duke, Harvard, and Yale for the most represented school in the summer class. The law school feels nothing like the undergrad culture we so love to hate (at least not anymore than every T14 is going to); it actually kind of reminds me of Carolina in some weird ways.

It seems like the majority of the summer class ended up choosing Duke over Georgetown, Cornell, and exactly one random MVP.* Everybody had more or less the same reasons: Georgetown has a huge and unwieldy class that hurts its placement (especially in DC), Cornell is cold and snowy, and they just didn't get the same feeling of belonging during their MVP visit that they did during their Duke visit.

Also, in my case, North Carolina is home and DC is where I think I want to go when I graduate... but I'd rather compete with 50 DC-gunning Duke students than 400 DC-gunning Georgetown students or 150 DC-gunning Virginia students. I also wanted to keep North Carolina open as an option. Your calculus might be different, and certainly nobody would blame you for wanting to go ahead and get to DC three years earlier.

In short: Both are really good schools, though Georgetown suffers for its size and Duke suffers for its undergrads. I assume you've visited both... what is your gut telling you?


*Seriously, I'm pretty sure Deans Zearfoss, Dugas, and Post sit around in a bunker deciding which school each shotgun applicant is going to get.

Can someone explain how Georgetown's large class size hurts it placement, especially in DC? You say you would rather compete with 50 students from Duke than 400 students from Georgetown, but you are not just competing with the students from Duke, you are competing with the Georgetown students as well. Plus with Georgetown's large class size their alumni network would be much larger. wouldn't that be a plus? I don't see many people complaining about Harvard's large class size. Well that might be because of their super high high rank right? Well right now Duke is ranked 11th while Georgetown is ranked 13th. That is not much of a difference. So I am having trouble seeing why the large class size is that important considering one competes with every new law grad, not just the ones that went to the same school. What am I missing?

[evolved306]

I'm headed to Duke in the fall so I'm biased. But Durham will be substantially cheaper than DC, enough to cut that scholarship in half. $30k isn't enough to choose a school with significantly worse biglaw prospects (-11% c/o 2011), which you'll need to service the debt. Unless you go the federal route, which Duke rocked last year - 12% federal clerkship placement (twice that of GULC), and tied with Penn and Berkeley for 4th highest.

[/Blatant Duke trolling]

I don't think DC is $10,000 a year more expensive. Maybe $6,000 (or $500 a month more), but Duke's tuition is about $1,750 more. So my scholarship would make Georgetown a little more than $45,000 cheaper.

[rayiner]

So I am having trouble seeing why the large class size is that important considering one competes with every new law grad, not just the ones that went to the same school. What am I missing?

What you're missing is that firms aren't shifting through a giant stack of resumes. They're sending interviewers to OCI at schools, buying a certain number of interview slots at OCI, and allocating a certain number of callbacks at each school. At the screening stage, you're only competing with people at your school. It's only at the callback stage where you're competing against the whole pool.

Firms do buy more interview slots and allocate more callbacks to GULC than to the other T14. But it's not three times as many as at other schools.

As for Harvard, the dynamic with Harvard is very different. There is a much higher demand for Harvard grads, to the point where firms are willing to allocate a ton more callbacks to Harvard than other T14 schools.

[DaleCooper]

Can someone explain how Georgetown's large class size hurts it placement, especially in DC? You say you would rather compete with 50 students from Duke than 400 students from Georgetown, but you are not just competing with the students from Duke, you are competing with the Georgetown students as well. Plus with Georgetown's large class size their alumni network would be much larger. wouldn't that be a plus? I don't see many people complaining about Harvard's large class size. Well that might be because of their super high high rank right? Well right now Duke is ranked 11th while Georgetown is ranked 13th. That is not much of a difference. So I am having trouble seeing why the large class size is that important considering one competes with every new law grad, not just the ones that went to the same school. What am I missing?

I'm far from an expert on this subject (see: 1L), but this was my logic going into the choice:

1.) Contrary to TLS's anti-Gtown trolling, every federal attorney and all but two BigLawyers I talked to thought Virginia, Duke, and Georgetown were basically identical in quality and reputation. In spite of this, Virginia and Duke have consistently posted much better employment statistics than Georgetown since the recession. There is clearly something going wrong at Georgetown (enough that they were super-defensive about it at ASW). I don't see a lot of evidence that anyone outside of TLS thinks Georgetown is an inferior school, so I suspect the class size is the culprit.

2.) Duke is kind of like Michigan in that it spreads its graduates more-or-less evenly around the country... some go to NY, some go to California, some go to DC, some stay in NC, some go to Chicago or Atlanta or Texas. In my class, nobody really wants the same things. At Georgetown, it seemed like most of the people I talked to planned to stay in DC.

3.) From what I have gathered, DC firms do not want to hire all of their graduates from Georgetown. They like Georgetown, and Georgetown probably gets more OCI callback spots than other lower-T14 schools, but not three times as many.

4.) The Duke 3Ls I talked to said that the vast majority of the people who wanted DC last year got it, and that the career services office made sure the few who didn't had other good options. The Georgetown 3Ls I talked to didn't seem as happy. This is only anecdotal evidence, but it had a big influence on my personal choice.

5.) When I went to Georgetown asking them if they'd be willing to up my scholarship offer (Duke matched theirs), they asked me why I was hesitant about Georgetown. I told them about my class size concerns, and the answer was basically, "You're the kind of person who is going to get good grades, so don't worry about it." That didn't make me feel better.

Again, I don't think this is a no-brainer decision. The odds that you'll be one of the people who strikes out at Georgetown are low. But they're not zero. For me, the placement difference between Duke and Georgetown was a big factor... and now that I'm here, I'm realizing how cool it is that I don't have to look at my classmates as competitors. A lot of them want NY or California, a few want DC or Chicago or Texas or Charlotte or Raleigh or London or Beijing or Hong Kong. It's just a different situation from Georgetown, where most of the class wants DC.

All that said, I'm a big fan of going with your gut. If Georgetown feels right, then it's right. I had a lot of people telling me I was crazy for choosing Duke over Virginia, and I'm not going to do that to anyone else. Like me, you have a weird enough career interest that TLS conventional wisdom is of limited use. Just be sure you make whatever decision with your eyes open.

(And if you choose Duke, let me know and I'll buy you a drink.)

[jenesaislaw]

I chose dook (UNC '08 here), but I have a really tough time telling somebody to go into 240k debt (what you'd owe at first payment after interest accrues). That's the projected non-discounted cost for dook, --LinkRemoved-- You can do slightly better than 17k/yr for cost of living, as you know, but not much better, and if you work free 1L and don't get a summer associate job 2L you can't cut much into that final figure.

[evolved306]

How important is big law for paying off debt? I get the impression that without it you are screwed, but how can this be true if Georgetown only places about 30% of their students in big law? That would mean 70% (minus the ones that do the public interest thing) would be screwed.

If one doesn't get big law what would there situation be?

At what point, in regards to COA, would Big law not be necessary? 150k, 100k?

If I could get 30k a year (rather than 20k) from Georgetown would that make a difference?
What if my parents helped out with about 30k over the 3 years regardless of where I went? That would make Georgetown COA about 120K and Duke about 195K.

[Aberzombie1892]

How important is big law for paying off debt? I get the impression that without it you are screwed, but how can this be true if Georgetown only places about 30% of their students in big law? That would mean 70% (minus the ones that do the public interest thing) would be screwed.

If one doesn't get big law what would there situation be?

At what point, in regards to COA, would Big law not be necessary? 150k, 100k?

If I could get 30k a year (rather than 20k) from Georgetown would that make a difference?
What if my parents helped out with about 30k over the 3 years regardless of where I went? That would make Georgetown COA about 120K and Duke about 195K.

"Screwed" is a relative term. IBR limits payments to what you can pay; the primary issue is that people generally want (1) a desirable career and (2) a positive financial return on investment. If you are forced to use IBR, you aren't really experiencing (2) and (1) would be debatable (some people want city gov and low profile PI, while others want only $$$).

1. Outside of big law, there is mid/small law, state/city government, PI, and federal gov (probably in that order).

2. When big law is necessary is another relative situation. Someone can have $300,000 worth of debt and not need big law, courtesy of IBR or a particular LRAP. It's probably not the issue in abstract - but when you factor in having a desirable career and a positive return on investment, then big law is quite "necessary."

3. Most people would say that Georgetown is worth $120,000 worth of debt.

One of the primary issues with Georgetown is that we don't know for sure if its lack of placement is due to firms not liking it as much, or whether a disproportionate amount of students want to stay in DC at all costs. Given how Georgetown used to place among the best T14s, I would wager for the latter -> if you choose Georgetown, be prepared to not stay there if you are looking for your best possible employment outcomes (NY and secondary markets).

[rayiner]

How important is big law for paying off debt? I get the impression that without it you are screwed, but how can this be true if Georgetown only places about 30% of their students in big law? That would mean 70% (minus the ones that do the public interest thing) would be screwed.

If one doesn't get big law what would there situation be?

At what point, in regards to COA, would Big law not be necessary? 150k, 100k?

If I could get 30k a year (rather than 20k) from Georgetown would that make a difference?
What if my parents helped out with about 30k over the 3 years regardless of where I went? That would make Georgetown COA about 120K and Duke about 195K.

"Screwed" is a relative term. IBR limits payments to what you can pay; the primary issue is that people generally want (1) a desirable career and (2) a positive financial return on investment. If you are forced to use IBR, you aren't really experiencing (2) and (1) would be debatable (some people want city gov and low profile PI, while others want only $$$).

1. Outside of big law, there is mid/small law, state/city government, PI, and federal gov (probably in that order).

2. When big law is necessary is another relative situation. Someone can have $300,000 worth of debt and not need big law, courtesy of IBR or a particular LRAP. It's probably not the issue in abstract - but when you factor in having a desirable career and a positive return on investment, then big law is quite "necessary."

3. Most people would say that Georgetown is worth $120,000 worth of debt.

One of the primary issues with Georgetown is that we don't know for sure if its lack of placement is due to firms not liking it as much, or whether a disproportionate amount of students want to stay in DC at all costs. Given how Georgetown used to place among the best T14s, I would wager for the latter -> if you choose Georgetown, be prepared to not stay there if you are looking for your best possible employment outcomes (NY and secondary markets).

Georgetown never used to place among the best T14's.

[Aberzombie1892]

My point was that it used to always place around 70%+ NLJ, when now it averages half of that - and no other T14 is experiencing a similar decline in placement.

EDIT - how did it do in 2005?

[rayiner]

My point was that it used to always place around 70%+ NLJ, when now it averages half of that.

During boom times it was 48-49%: http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... =2&t=61206.

[Aberzombie1892]

My point was that it used to always place around 70%+ NLJ, when now it averages half of that.

During boom times it was 48-49%: http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... =2&t=61206.

I stand corrected. What are your thoughts on whether GTown's lack of placement is an effect of students being overly committed to DC post graduation vs. employers just caring about Gtown less?

[rayiner]

My point was that it used to always place around 70%+ NLJ, when now it averages half of that.

During boom times it was 48-49%: http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... =2&t=61206.

I stand corrected. What are your thoughts on whether GTown's lack of placement is an effect of students being overly committed to DC post graduation vs. employers just caring about Gtown less?

I think there are three things:
1) GULC students are committed to DC, but DC is committed to HYS;
2) GULC students self-select into government jobs;
3) DC firms don't care about Georgetown less, they just don't care about it more; they don't try to hire 3x as many from GULC as from Duke or NU.

[Ruxin1]

My point was that it used to always place around 70%+ NLJ, when now it averages half of that.

During boom times it was 48-49%: http://www.top-law-schools.com/archives ... =2&t=61206.

I stand corrected. What are your thoughts on whether GTown's lack of placement is an effect of students being overly committed to DC post graduation vs. employers just caring about Gtown less?

I think there are three things:
1) GULC students are committed to DC, but DC is committed to HYS;
2) GULC students self-select into government jobs;
3) DC firms don't care about Georgetown less, they just don't care about it more; they don't try to hire 3x as many from GULC as from Duke or NU.

You've said before schools without a true home market will suffer in placement and this fits with that. Insofar as firms in DC not giving a leg to GULC

[Aberzombie1892]

I've been thinking about whether the lack of GTown NLJ placement is due to over committing to DC by its graduates, given the competitiveness of the market. All of the circumstantial evidence seems to indicate that that is the case (tons of people get NLJ firm jobs, tons of employers on campus recruit for spots all over the US, 45% of the class decides to remain in DC, etc.), and that GTown graduates could do better if they targeted NYC and spread out like graduates of schools without a home market (like Michigan, Duke, and Virginia). That idea is sort of counter-intuitive, given the GTown is that only T14 located in a major market that does not dominate it.

[DaleCooper]

+1. If my top choices weren't DC and NC and Duke hadn't matched Georgetown's offer, I would probably be living on Capitol Hill right now.

I really don't buy into the TLS dogma that Georgetown is a "lesser" T14 at all... the full-time students have the same numerical quality as MVPD, and the education itself certainly isn't any different. If I'm a recruiter, I'm going to be just as impressed by a Georgetown grad as a Penn or Duke or Northwestern grad, all else being equal.

I just think Georgetown is a huge school full of people who want to work in DC, and that makes it a scary choice if you want DC or a market dominated by one of your other options. But if you want NYC or Miami or Seattle or something, it probably doesn't matter. Georgetown might actually have an advantage thanks to their giant alumni network.

There's also the side benefit of attractive non-lawyers at bars thinking Georgetown is tied for the #3 spot.

(Disclaimer: I am a 1L, and everything I just said may be completely and totally wrong.)

[evolved306]

So if go to Georgetown and decide to work in NYC rather than DC after graduation I would be relatively safe, and the risk associated with Georgetown's large class size would be mitigated?