Decision time Forum

[joecham]

pballer, I'm not getting pissy, I was just hoping that someone would have some specific insight based on first hand experience at one of these schools

[Nova]

PFFFF.....ok, let me ask you you this, do any of you have full time, JD required jobs? or do you have a full time gig poo pooing law schools. It's a week day for christ sake

Im a 0L starting law school in the fall. I work full time (8-5 m-f) setting appointments and entering data at a social security law office. I can both post and do my job at the same time. Im not trying to poo poo anything. Im trying to encourage you to aim higher and get into a decent school that will be worth the 3 year investment.

[Mal Reynolds]

These two schools are so expensive and so terrible at employment it would be an awful decision to go to either. Why would firsthand experience matter when we can tell you the total percentage of people employed at the school? That would seem to be a better way to understand the school's prospects.

[Wily]

pballer, I'm not getting pissy, I was just hoping that someone would have some specific insight based on first hand experience at one of these schools

for a friendlier audience full of "real lawyers," try http://www.jdunderground.com. I'm sure you'll get a lot of love there.

[Ruxin1]

I think a lot of these threads happen because lay people think the legal market is like other sectors where a lot of hustle can get you employment. Law is unlike anything else, if the government isn't hiring it does not matter how special or how many "ins" you have. For the private side, it is so school/prestige/grades driven and competitive you have no idea. You may not want to put off LS another year, but in exchange for the rest of your working life, it will make a huge difference. People get pissed off because law is not an industry where you can "work your way up", like in the military, so that first employment is crucial and often career defining.

[Samara]

pballer, I'm not getting pissy, I was just hoping that someone would have some specific insight based on first hand experience at one of these schools

Why do you think "first-hand experience" will run contrary to the data?

[Mal Reynolds]

USF's unemployed percentage of graduates exceeds it's employed students by 15%. That is the definition of a terrible school.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... hools.html

[Yossarian79]

"Understood...... the legal market is not great. Let me rephrase the question, does anybody have first hand experience with USF or CUA? or the markets in DC or san fran? I can also read USNWR and LST, I'm looking for new information based on experience, maybe I'm in the wrong place....."

Let me translate that for you:

"Yeah, I have real data, but fuck that -- I can get anecdotes on the Internet!"

More seriously, I can't speak to USF, but I live in DC and have for years. I have federal government work experience. And until a few weeks ago, I didn't even realize CUA had a law school. Unless you're literally somebody's kid, I don't think Catholic represents a likely entry point into government jobs.

[joecham]

I have seen the data and I realize what the current prospects are. My options are what they are, it is a binary situation and both schools are will be very close to free. that is why I was hoping to get more school specific information.

[noleknight16]

I have seen the data and I realize what the current prospects are. My options are what they are, it is a binary situation and both schools are will be very close to free. that is why I was hoping to get more school specific information.

Go to Catholic over USF. Not even close.

Why is a retake out of the picture?

[Ruxin1]

I have seen the data and I realize what the current prospects are. My options are what they are, it is a binary situation and both schools are will be very close to free. that is why I was hoping to get more school specific information.

In both markets you will be competing against T14 kids because they are two of most desirous places for legal work in the country. It is not a binary option, you can retake and get better choices. Yes you will not be in huge debt, but if you can't find a meaningfull, long-term career option, the result is still a loss. You are getting law school for free, suck it up and study for 3 months til October, apply to better schools and live a better life.

[prezidentv8]

I have seen the data and I realize what the current prospects are. My options are what they are, it is a binary situation and both schools are will be very close to free. that is why I was hoping to get more school specific information.

Go to Catholic over USF. Not even close.

Why is a retake out of the picture?

I feel compelled to add that not going is also an option. So USF/Cath./Retake/Don't Go

[moonman157]

I have seen the data and I realize what the current prospects are. My options are what they are, it is a binary situation and both schools are will be very close to free. that is why I was hoping to get more school specific information.

Apparently, though, you had all the school specific information (i.e. LST data) before you even created this thread. Law school is not like undergrad. The biggest factor, and really deciding factor, should be employment prospects/costs of attending. There's nothing that even a Catholic/USF student could tell you that would be relevant to your question that you can't find out in LST. Your only concern should be which school will give you better career options, and as many on this thread have already said, the correct response is neither.

[TMC116]

USF's unemployed percentage of graduates exceeds it's employed students by 15%. That is the definition of a terrible school.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... hools.html

This is all you need to know in order to scratch USF off your list right now.

1. Go get a pen
2. Get your list
3. Scratch "USF" off said list
4. Profit (...relatively)

[justicefishy]

Okay, since I know this pretty decently, I can add my two cents and an anecdote. My dad is a hiring partner at the DC office of a V100 firm. They're closer to the 100 than the V10, but do a bit of hiring in DC. The vast majority of their associates are from Georgetown, GW, and AU, with a few Mason and Howard kids in the office (beyond those of the T14 and Vandy), but refuse to even look at the resumes of anyone at CUA. It's at the bottom of the DC pecking order for law schools. Retake, or don't go, even with a full ride, it's a horrible idea.

[timbs4339]

Okay, since I know this pretty decently, I can add my two cents and an anecdote. My dad is a hiring partner at the DC office of a V100 firm. They're closer to the 100 than the V10, but do a bit of hiring in DC. The vast majority of their associates are from Georgetown, GW, and AU, with a few Mason and Howard kids in the office (beyond those of the T14 and Vandy), but refuse to even look at the resumes of anyone at CUA. It's at the bottom of the DC pecking order for law schools. Retake, or don't go, even with a full ride, it's a horrible idea.

Government hiring is just as selective, if not moreso, than what this poster described.

[Excellent117]

Just because something is free, doesn't mean that it is a good idea. Also, you have to be getting that $60,000 in living expenses from somewhere...

[ahnhub]

-You still haven't explained why you won't retake.
-Even if it is free, 3 yrs of your life is still a questionable investment for something as dicey as a 10% chance of hitting the jackpot and a 50% chance of being employed at all.

Are you a veteran? I ask because you mentioned something about the Yellow Ribbon.

[joecham]

I am not retaking it because I am not willing to wait another year, I'm 29 and I have no job. I am a veteran and I have 100% of the GI bill so my living expenses will be completely covered and then some. I realize that the prospects for biglaw or DOJ are slim out of CUA. It seems to be the consensus that CUA is so shitty that getting a law degree for free is not worth the time spent, I think that may be a little extreme. There is no way to know for sure but I am fairly confident that I can place in the top 50% at least. So I will let you know in three years, hopefully the market will be better.

[noleknight16]

I am not retaking it because I am not willing to wait another year, I'm 29 and I have no job. I am a veteran and I have 100% of the GI bill so my living expenses will be completely covered and then some. I realize that the prospects for biglaw or DOJ are slim out of CUA. It seems to be the consensus that CUA is so shitty that getting a law degree for free is not worth the time spent, I think that may be a little extreme. There is no way to know for sure but I am fairly confident that I can place in the top 50% at least. So I will let you know in three years, hopefully the market will be better.

That's not a good enough excuse. You're doing yourself a huge disservice by not realizing your full potential on the LSAT and getting into a better law school.

[JCFindley]

No plans to retake the LSAT, I'm going this year. There are no GPA requirements to keep my Scholly at CUA(yellow ribbon).

Are you talking GI Bill Yellow Ribbon Program?

[JCFindley]

I am not retaking it because I am not willing to wait another year, I'm 29 and I have no job. I am a veteran and I have 100% of the GI bill so my living expenses will be completely covered and then some. I realize that the prospects for biglaw or DOJ are slim out of CUA. It seems to be the consensus that CUA is so shitty that getting a law degree for free is not worth the time spent, I think that may be a little extreme. There is no way to know for sure but I am fairly confident that I can place in the top 50% at least. So I will let you know in three years, hopefully the market will be better.

OK, Joe, I get it, I really really get it. The difference is that I am older and have no job. I get that the housing allowance will at least keep a roof over your head for the next three years. I get that the economy might be better then and at the very least you will have a JD when you start looking then.....

I had a similar view on retaking not that long ago and figured I would get into St Johns or Pace and could see what happened in three years.....

While I don't listen to ALL the advice on here the folks in this thread are trying to help and the arguments are very valid.... I eventually scratched St Johns and Pace off my list and decided I would retake if necessary but I got into Rutgers Newark which actually DOES give its grads a pretty good shot of a job. I was still going to retake but ended up getting into my top choice so will start in seven weeks.....

Now, I had a very specific list of requirements on where I would go once I figured out applying anywhere my numbers might get me in was a bad idea.... My main requirement is that the GI Bill + YRP would pay 100% of tuition. There are myriad schools out there where it will and many of them are really really good....

So here is my logic, use it as you see fit. OK, if I were to go to Pace or St Johns in three years I would likely find myself in the same situation, looking for a job. To be honest I think I would be worse off then than I am now as people are very suspicious of hiring attorneys unless it is an attorney job. Seriously, I couldn't get a job waiting tables when I told them I was going to LS..... Plus I still have my clearances now and can turn that into a job somewhere. They will be long expired in three years.

OK, so the GI Bill is basically handing me a quarter of a million dollars or at least that is how far I would be in debt after three years if I didn't have it. (Varies by school obviously.) My feeling is that it is a LOT of money and I had better use it wisely. Using it wisely for me is attending a school where I have a genuine chance of a JD job....

When it comes down to it YOU earned that benefit and use it as you see fit but at least give some thought to retaking even if you have to wait tables for a year. I have no idea what your numbers are but being a veteran is a soft that CAN matter at a lot of schools. If you can improve the LSAT, and I think anyone can you will get a LOT more for your money and even though the JD is four years away doing that you could be MUCH better off than you would be with your choices now.

I am not a biglaw or bust kind of guy but think of what 10K/month after taxes can do... Seriously, that is a biglaw paycheck and it CAN be yours...... Or, if you are like me and want PI, think of how many more choices you would have from a LS that actually feeds well in its market.....

Anyway, its all just food for thought for you.

If you absolutely must go this year I would say Catholic. To be honest, I have never heard of it but I will assume it is in/near DC. DC has LOTS of military and has some good vet friendly things here....

JC

If you want to talk directly of the GIB/YRP please feel free to PM me.

[ahnhub]

If you think you can do any better, it would make crazy good sense to bag groceries or work at a bookstore or unload freight or move furniture or bus tables for a year and retake.

Outside of that, there are SO many resources available to a veteran with a college degree for finding work right now. You just have to reach out. I guarantee there is someone assigned to wherever you're living right now whose specific job is to find veterans work. The interesting thing with that is you may be able to find a job which connects to the legal field in some way, and in that case you will have the option of getting a law degree with both a purpose and some connections/experience in a relevant field--the best possible scenario.

I don't think Catholic is a bad school. It's just nowhere near where it needs to be on the totem pole to be considered a reasonable investment in this economy. The GI Bill is sweet--if you could graduate debt-free from a school with better job prospects you would be sitting in the catbird's seat.

[Kring345]

+1 from another veteran.

The schools are NOT free. You PAID for them while in the military. I know I did. Afghanistan twice, Iraq, millions of working parties, drama/bullshit, long hours, running/hikes, inspections, etc. Don't sell yourself short and waste the money that you earned and paid for.