100th brooklyn vs dozo thread. Please advise? Forum

[pixleprincess]

**please please please no retake/reapply harping**

-i deposited at BLS
-BLS offers 48k+5k stipend, tuition is close to 50k so effectively a 3k stipend
-will receive official offer at dozo soon, likely full tuition (based on phone call so who know but let's assume full tuition) though no stipend

My goal:
No explicit big law ambitions- dream career would be something like 2 years of clerkship then a dept of justice fellowship (they have an "honors program" ) then hopefully one of the (I know, they're very competative, possibly soon to be non existent) nonprofit positions that make more than 70k down the line. That is my make-believe trajectory though realistically I will be able to make do either as public defender or reg public service/gov position. Also if a pull off top 10% with all the trimmings (yes huge IF) I would love a shot at a cushy or semi-cushy 2L SA position to figure out if I could be happy doing big law for a couple years before transitioning into public service (I know this is a huge if at both of these schools, I know). I know all these goals will no matter what require loads of work and luck at either school, but if one seems even slightly better than the other... Or it's just a question of do I want an extra 3 grand..

- I really loved BLS when I visited. I visited dozo in 2007 when I first considered ls but have no sense of what it's like now, also I'm sure now I would perceive it all differently now anyway.
-3k/yr isn't much but it's 2.5 months of rent, or hiring a housekeeper once a week, or taking a cab if I'm exhausted or *shock* a trip to relax, or buying only organic produce... It's a significant quality of life enhancer for the next 3 yrs though nearly nothing in the long run.

I liked that BLS seemed to have a lot of public service/private firm flexibility in terms of types of clinics offered, what their public service fellowship provides and demands, the "hands on" kind of philosophy... My impression of dozo is that it's less public service oriented in the general community, and that those who do pursue ps form a little enclave which I don't like.

-dozo is a 20 min commute, BLS ~40
-I like that BLS is 100 yrs old, petty?
-I'm annoyed that my "full" scholly at BLS is 1,600 short, petty?
-I'm mostly interested in prison reform, family law and non-technical intellectual property law. Not really interested in dozo's project innocence.

So yeah, I don't really know what any of y'all can tell me, just looking for a new perspective or angle I didn't cover... I guess bc my gut tells me BLS but they are 11 spots lower (irrelevant? Maybe..) and I have a feeling they will be dropping not rising...

Thanks

[Mr. Somebody]

Are these schollies with no stips? If so I think they are both decent options. I would go with Dozo, but I don't think you can go wrong with BLS either. Honestly though, my problem is that your goals are too unrealistic. You would "make do" with a PD job? My impression is that those are super hard to get. Little over half the class at either school is confirmed to get long-term legal employment. You're far more likely to end up with nothing

[cinephile]

It sounds like you prefer Brooklyn, so why not go where you'll have the best fit? The employment prospects should be roughly equal, probably not your dream job, but no matter you won't be in a terrible financial situation due to low debt.

[pixleprincess]

It sounds like you prefer Brooklyn, so why not go where you'll have the best fit?.

Thanks... I know it'll be rough...
I guess just wondering about the slight difference in rank, and if 3k should really sway me either way

[Mr. Somebody]

I forgot to ask, why are these your only options? Numbers good enough for a full ride at Dozo should get you something higher up the food chain which might make more sense for your goals...

[flem]

Why are you going here with a 168/3.9? Super risk averse or something?

[timbs4339]

Assuming no stips, Brooklyn seems like the correct choice here. Your chances at an A3 clerkship or DOJ are slim, as you probably know, but dare to dream. Local ADA or PD is eminently doable and you'll have some flexibility if you tank 1L or your goals change.

[pixleprincess]

Just accept these options as is. Various reasons never good enough for the tls crowd, but that's how it is. The end. Effectively only these two, received offer from Fordham but wasn't enough $$, and staying in NY.

80% BLS, assuming same or none at dozo

[flem]

Just accept these options as is. Various reasons never good enough for the tls crowd, but that's how it is. The end. Effectively only these two, received offer from Fordham but wasn't enough $$, and staying in NY.

80% BLS, assuming same or none at dozo

If you actually want a legitimate clerkship or DOJ work you're selling yourself hugely short. These aren't terrible options but they are incompatible with what you want.

[CanadianWolf]

OP: Since you are determined to limit your choices to these two law schools, then you at least need to know Cardozo's offer before seeking advice, in my opinion.

P.S. What are the stipulations to maintain these scholarships during the second & third years ?

[timbs4339]

If the stip at Brooklyn is top 80%, it doesn't really change the calculus IMO. If you are bottom 20% after year 1 you might as well drop out, as even your realistic goals will most likely be unattainable.

[sunynp]

You might want to take a 40 minute ride to Cardozo to visit it again. It has been 5 years since you visited. If you want to go to either of these schools, you need to understand that you won't get any one of the goals you stated in your OP. You seem to know a lot about the TLS crowd, so I am not sure why you think you have a chance at getting any of these jobs. You say that you know that the chances are very very slight to get your goals, but you are determined to go.

It won't matter I guess as you will leave with no debt.

[CanadianWolf]

Obviously there is little risk of scholarship loss with a top 80% stipulation. If offered a full tuition & fees scholarship to Cardozo, then, in my opinion, it is just a matter of personal preference.

P.S. In light of your career goals & your numbers (168/3.9), there is a better answer.

[dolia]

keep in mind that 3k stipend is taxable, so it's not completely free money.

These schools are roughly even, but Dozo's got a bit of a better reputation. Nothing that will make or break your career, and for the goals you have you'll need to be extremely high up in the class at either school.

[sunynp]

Read this guys struggle to get a public interest job. This isn't an exaggeration. I'm only posting this because I am not convinced that you understand that you may not get any job with your degree.

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot. ... money.html

[Bildungsroman]

dream career would be something like 2 years of clerkship then a dept of justice fellowship (they have an "honors program" ) then hopefully one of the (I know, they're very competative, possibly soon to be non existent) nonprofit positions that make more than 70k down the line.

You're not going to get a clerkship from Brooklyn. According to Law School Transparency, neither of them places so much as 3% of their grads in federal clerkships (i.e. good, prestigious clerkships). You're also almost definitely not going to get DOJ honors. You've listed as career goals things that are far harder to get than biglaw.

What are the stipulations on your scholarship offers? A lot of law schools, and iirc Brooklyn is one of them, will offer a lot of scholarships but then yank a lot away after the recipients fall outside the top __%. You should do the math on attending under the assumption that you'll lose your scholarship.

[dolia]

Yeah DOJ Honors is a very very long-shot, but there are other federal honors programs (GAO comes to mind) and then there's the NY Law Dept which does hire from BLS and Dozo. Having no debt helps tremendously when someone wants to work in the public sector, and going to a T14 is certainly no guarantee of getting DOJ Honors. So I still think the OP is better off being debt-free.

[Bildungsroman]

Yeah DOJ Honors is a very very long-shot, but there are other federal honors programs (GAO comes to mind) and then there's the NY Law Dept which does hire from BLS and Dozo. Having no debt helps tremendously when someone wants to work in the public sector, and going to a T14 is certainly no guarantee of getting DOJ Honors. So I still think the OP is better off being debt-free.

OP, would you be debt free? You say you've got a full-tuition scholarship and stipend, but am I correct in assuming you'd be taking out loans for cost of living? If so, you're talking like $50,000+ in debt at graduation.

[dolia]

Yeah DOJ Honors is a very very long-shot, but there are other federal honors programs (GAO comes to mind) and then there's the NY Law Dept which does hire from BLS and Dozo. Having no debt helps tremendously when someone wants to work in the public sector, and going to a T14 is certainly no guarantee of getting DOJ Honors. So I still think the OP is better off being debt-free.

OP, would you be debt free? You say you've got a full-tuition scholarship and stipend, but am I correct in assuming you'd be taking out loans for cost of living? If so, you're talking like $50,000+ in debt at graduation.

That's a good point, but still a far better situation than taking on over 100k in debt for a higher ranked school. Speaking from personal experience, I had a full scholarship + 1 year of rent stipend, and still graduated with 40k in debt. But that's a manageable load on a government/PI salary.

[timbs4339]

Yeah DOJ Honors is a very very long-shot, but there are other federal honors programs (GAO comes to mind) and then there's the NY Law Dept which does hire from BLS and Dozo. Having no debt helps tremendously when someone wants to work in the public sector, and going to a T14 is certainly no guarantee of getting DOJ Honors. So I still think the OP is better off being debt-free.

Federal honors programs will be super-competitive as well. OP may have a slightly better shot, but it's still pretty small and less likely than biglaw. What has happened in the last few years is that the DOJ has severely cut the honors program, and many of the elite school candidates who want to work in the federal government have gone into other honors programs.

NY Law Dep't may be more doable, but pinning your hopes on a single agency is pretty risky. If OP wants a government job from BLS or Dozo his best bet will be as a local ADA, or public defender if he wants to do crim defense work.

[Bildungsroman]

Yeah DOJ Honors is a very very long-shot, but there are other federal honors programs (GAO comes to mind) and then there's the NY Law Dept which does hire from BLS and Dozo. Having no debt helps tremendously when someone wants to work in the public sector, and going to a T14 is certainly no guarantee of getting DOJ Honors. So I still think the OP is better off being debt-free.

OP, would you be debt free? You say you've got a full-tuition scholarship and stipend, but am I correct in assuming you'd be taking out loans for cost of living? If so, you're talking like $50,000+ in debt at graduation.

That's a good point, but still a far better situation than taking on over 100k in debt for a higher ranked school.

Depends on how much higher ranked. $150,000 in debt for NYU/Columbia vs. $50,000 in debt for Brooklyn/Dozo? Seems like an easy choice to me.

$50k debt at Brooklyn vs. say $125,000 at Fordham makes Brooklyn seem like a good option, but that's only if you have to attend one of those schools. You can always opt not to go to law school, or to retake/reapply, and when those options are on the table they win pretty handily over going $50k in debt for a Brooklyn/Dozo legal education.

[dolia]

Yeah DOJ Honors is a very very long-shot, but there are other federal honors programs (GAO comes to mind) and then there's the NY Law Dept which does hire from BLS and Dozo. Having no debt helps tremendously when someone wants to work in the public sector, and going to a T14 is certainly no guarantee of getting DOJ Honors. So I still think the OP is better off being debt-free.

Federal honors programs will be super-competitive as well. OP may have a slightly better shot, but it's still pretty small and less likely than biglaw. What has happened in the last few years is that the DOJ has severely cut the honors program, and many of the elite school candidates who want to work in the federal government have gone into other honors programs.

NY Law Dep't may be more doable, but pinning your hopes on a single agency is pretty risky. If OP wants a government job from BLS or Dozo his best bet will be as a local ADA, or public defender if he wants to do crim defense work.

Is it easy to get a job anywhere these days? I've been out of law school for a few years, so this is a genuine question. I was under the impression legal hiring has only gotten worse since I graduated.

There are more local gvmt agencies in NY than just the law dept and DA's office. Every agency has a counsel's office. If the OP is set on going to law school, then coming out of Dozo or BLS with little debt isn't the worst case scenario in the world. I know way too many T30 law grads who have over 150k in debt and can't find anything other than contract work. I guess it depends on how debt averse the OP is.

[timbs4339]

Yeah DOJ Honors is a very very long-shot, but there are other federal honors programs (GAO comes to mind) and then there's the NY Law Dept which does hire from BLS and Dozo. Having no debt helps tremendously when someone wants to work in the public sector, and going to a T14 is certainly no guarantee of getting DOJ Honors. So I still think the OP is better off being debt-free.

Federal honors programs will be super-competitive as well. OP may have a slightly better shot, but it's still pretty small and less likely than biglaw. What has happened in the last few years is that the DOJ has severely cut the honors program, and many of the elite school candidates who want to work in the federal government have gone into other honors programs.

NY Law Dep't may be more doable, but pinning your hopes on a single agency is pretty risky. If OP wants a government job from BLS or Dozo his best bet will be as a local ADA, or public defender if he wants to do crim defense work.

Is it easy to get a job anywhere these days? I've been out of law school for a few years, so this is a genuine question. I was under the impression legal hiring has only gotten worse since I graduated.

There are more local gvmt agencies in NY than just the law dept and DA's office. Every agency has a counsel's office. If the OP is set on going to law school, then coming out of Dozo or BLS with little debt isn't the worst case scenario in the world. I know way too many T30 law grads who have over 150k in debt and can't find anything other than contract work. I guess it depends on how debt averse the OP is.

It's certainly not easy to get hired in government anywhere now, as these jobs qualify for the 10-year loan forgiveness program and are thus more desirable that slightly higher paying private jobs, but there's a difference between "reasonable" and "pipe-dream." Many city agencies don't hire right out of law school, I think the NYC Law Dep't/Corp Counsel and the DA are the only ones. IMO Dozo/Bkyn are worth around 40K debt OP will be paying assuming he maintains the scholly, over say 100K of debt at Fordham and a slightly lower chance of not getting one of these PSLF qualifying jobs and being debtpwnd. Biglaw or federal government work is well into the unreasonable range especially if OP has better options. If OP is really set on those he should look to a higher ranked school.

[dolia]

timbs4339, well I disagree, but it's up to the OP to weigh these options. I will say from experience that you're incorrect about NYC agencies not hiring straight out of law school. I started at a firm and worked my way in to local gvmt, but some agencies do in fact hire straight out of law school. They just don't have summer programs the way the DA's office and Law Dept do.

[timbs4339]

timbs4339, well I disagree, but it's up to the OP to weigh these options. I will say from experience that you're incorrect about NYC agencies not hiring straight out of law school. I started at a firm and worked my way in to local gvmt, but some agencies do in fact hire straight out of law school. They just don't have summer programs the way the DA's office and Law Dept do.

Could you provide examples of these agencies then- it might be helpful to OP. My experience was that local government hiring was limited to the Law Dep't/Corp Counsel and the DA.