Berkeley vs. Georgetown Forum

[dannyde7]

I’m certain most of you will tell me to go to Berkeley based on NLJ250 numbers and the like, but there are couple factors weighing my decision:

I was recently admitted off the wait list to Berkeley. I have about 10 days to decide if I want to go there and I'm not sure if I'll have time to visit. What’s tearing me up about this decision is that I was all set to go to Georgetown and actually really liked the school when I visited. I made friends quickly and I was excited to spend three years in DC. Additionally, I have a girlfriend who lives in Philadelphia, and I just don’t see our relationship working out if I move to California. Additionally, my family lives on the East Coast and I don’t see myself working in California after school— I’d much rather head back to New York (where I just finished 4 years of working) after graduation.

I’m also getting no money at either school. I would love the input of those currently at either school on quality of life and career placement if possible.

Thanks!

[Tiago Splitter]

Ask Georgetown for money based off the Berkeley acceptance.

[JimHalpert]

Personally in your situation I would go to Georgetown without hesitation. Good luck with the decision.

[Samara]

Peer schools are peer, dooder. If you prefer Georgetown, go for it.

A lot of people hate on GULC here, but I think it's unjustified. Yes, the NLJ numbers are lower, but GULC has a lot of people aiming for gov and other non-NLJ jobs.

[dannyde7]

Ask Georgetown for money based off the Berkeley acceptance.

Thanks man. Do you have any suggestions on how I should go for that? Do I just call them?

[flem]

Thanks man. Do you have any suggestions on how I should go for that? Do I just call them?

"Hi, I have been admitted to a school ranked higher (lol), and while GULC remains a top choice this is a difficult decision and the economy is in the shitter, can I have some need or merit based aid pls? If given I am prepared to deposit immediately. TYIA"

Just like that. Email should suffice.

[rickgrimes69]

If GULC doesn't budge on the price, go Berk unless your relationship is more important to you.

[dannyde7]

Thanks man. Do you have any suggestions on how I should go for that? Do I just call them?

"Hi, I have been admitted to a school ranked higher (lol), and while GULC remains a top choice this is a difficult decision and the economy is in the shitter, can I have some need or merit based aid pls? If given I am prepared to deposit immediately. TYIA"

Just like that. Email should suffice.

Thanks, I already submitted my deposit (deadline was 6/1). Is there anything else that I could leverage?

I actually really liked Georgetown, it's just this is what scares me:

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/career/Em ... cs2011.htm
--LinkRemoved--

At Georgetown in 2011, 145 people took JD preferred jobs, of which 75 or so were short-term. Additionally, Georgetown had approx 40-50 people unemployed 9 months out.

At Berkeley in 2011, about 20 people were unemployed and 91% of the class had bar-required jobs.

[flem]

Keep in mind that Georgetown's class size is like, three times the size of Boalt's. That's probably proportionally about on point.

[Bildungsroman]

Peer schools are peer, dooder.

Absolutely not. I love how people are using the phrase "peer schools are peer" as a magic talisman to try and pretend very real differences don't exist between schools. Georgetown has shitty placement, as evidenced by the schools' respective employment stats and the most recent NLJ placement data (which shows a 14% difference in biglaw placement). And if you're going to try to claim that that's all self-selection, lol just lol at the idea that fewer people self-select into PI from Berkeley than from GULC.

[rad lulz]

Peer schools are peer, dooder.

Absolutely not. I love how people are using the phrase "peer schools are peer" as a magic talisman to try and pretend very real differences don't exist between schools. Georgetown has shitty placement, as evidenced by the schools' respective employment stats and the most recent NLJ placement data (which shows a 14% difference in biglaw placement). And if you're going to try to claim that that's all self-selection, lol just lol at the idea that fewer people self-select into PI from Berkeley than from GULC.

In addition, here's where someone brings up bigfed, and then I point out that bigfed has a hiring freeze.

[Rotor]

As long as you do reasonably well, you will be able to get NYC out of Berkeley.

As for the girlfriend issue, if it's serious enough, you can survive the long distance; if it's not serious, it's not worth basing a major life decision on. Long-distance isn't fun but it is manageable.

I'm not saying don't pick Gtown. But I don't think you've put sufficient reasons to rule out B.

I loved the the smallish, but not too small, class size. I also loved the grading system--keeps the pressure down to some degree. The Bay Area handily beats DC for quality of life (this coming from a guy heading to DC after the bar). And while there is more to the decision than NLJ percentages, that too must be a factor. If you are looking beyond Calif., your odds will likely be even better than NLJ (anecdotal: everyone who I know wanted NYC or DC is headed there; I think the NLJ numbers are suppressed by people who struck out by focusing exclusively on CA)

[dannyde7]

As long as you do reasonably well, you will be able to get NYC out of Berkeley.

As for the girlfriend issue, if it's serious enough, you can survive the long distance; if it's not serious, it's not worth basing a major life decision on. Long-distance isn't fun but it is manageable.

I'm not saying don't pick Gtown. But I don't think you've put sufficient reasons to rule out B.

I loved the the smallish, but not too small, class size. I also loved the grading system--keeps the pressure down to some degree. The Bay Area handily beats DC for quality of life (this coming from a guy heading to DC after the bar). And while there is more to the decision than NLJ percentages, that too must be a factor. If you are looking beyond Calif., your odds will likely be even better than NLJ (anecdotal: everyone who I know wanted NYC or DC is headed there; I think the NLJ numbers are suppressed by people who struck out by focusing exclusively on CA)

Thanks, this is really helpful. Would love to hear more from Berkeley vs. Georgetown students or grads. I have strong ties to NYC (worked there for NYC, feel like it's my home) and I'm hoping that would be enough (barring finishing in the bottom 25% of the class) to get back there

[Samara]

Peer schools are peer, dooder.

Absolutely not. I love how people are using the phrase "peer schools are peer" as a magic talisman to try and pretend very real differences don't exist between schools. Georgetown has shitty placement, as evidenced by the schools' respective employment stats and the most recent NLJ placement data (which shows a 14% difference in biglaw placement). And if you're going to try to claim that that's all self-selection, lol just lol at the idea that fewer people self-select into PI from Berkeley than from GULC.

In addition, here's where someone brings up bigfed, and then I point out that bigfed has a hiring freeze.

And even with the hiring freezes, GULC placed more students in c/o 2010 into Gov/PI than Berkeley. It's not enough to cover the gap, but if people were targeting a class of jobs that just froze up, that would explain a lot of the difference. There probably is a placement difference, but I think it's pretty overstated by most people, who often just point to c/o 2010 stats and say "Look at how terrible they are!" Those same stats show Cornell at over 60% placement into biglaw, but no one is trying to claim Cornell is on par with CCN.

Rayiner wrote a good post on why people are hating on GULC too hard. I'll buy that Berkeley is a stronger school, but I don't think the difference is so large as to negate all the other reasons OP wants to go to Georgetown. IMO, they should still be considered in the same tier, even if there are differences between them.

[Bildungsroman]

Peer schools are peer, dooder.

Absolutely not. I love how people are using the phrase "peer schools are peer" as a magic talisman to try and pretend very real differences don't exist between schools. Georgetown has shitty placement, as evidenced by the schools' respective employment stats and the most recent NLJ placement data (which shows a 14% difference in biglaw placement). And if you're going to try to claim that that's all self-selection, lol just lol at the idea that fewer people self-select into PI from Berkeley than from GULC.

In addition, here's where someone brings up bigfed, and then I point out that bigfed has a hiring freeze.

And even with the hiring freezes, GULC placed more students in c/o 2010 into Gov/PI than Berkeley. It's not enough to cover the gap, but if people were targeting a class of jobs that just froze up, that would explain a lot of the difference. There probably is a placement difference, but I think it's pretty overstated by most people, who often just point to c/o 2010 stats and say "Look at how terrible they are!" Those same stats show Cornell at over 60% placement into biglaw, but no one is trying to claim Cornell is on par with CCN.

Rayiner wrote a good post on why people are hating on GULC too hard. I'll buy that Berkeley is a stronger school, but I don't think the difference is so large as to negate all the other reasons OP wants to go to Georgetown. IMO, they should still be considered in the same tier, even if there are differences between them.

Nope. GULC gets hated on too hard, maybe, but Berkeley is objectively better than GULC. No repetition of "peer schools are peer" is going to change that.

[Doorkeeper]

Berkeley unless you plan on putting a ring on that finger.

Also, get scholarship money out of Georgetown.

[Samara]

Nope. GULC gets hated on too hard, maybe, but Berkeley is objectively better than GULC. No repetition of "peer schools are peer" is going to change that.

Again, I would agree with that, but I don't think the difference is so large that OP's personal preferences shouldn't close the gap.

Per the links provided by OP for c/o 2011:

Berkeley - Firms + Clerks + Gov + PI = 91.72%
GULC - Firms + Clerks + Gov + PI = 86.6%

Berkeley - Firms of 501+ = 59.74%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 58.7%

Berkeley is the clear winner, but the gap is not large. If it were down to just employment prospects, I would pick Berkeley in almost every situation. But if OP has personal reasons to want to attend Georgetown, I don't think it's unreasonable to do so. That's what "peer schools" means, at least in the way that I was using it.

[Bildungsroman]

Nope. GULC gets hated on too hard, maybe, but Berkeley is objectively better than GULC. No repetition of "peer schools are peer" is going to change that.

Again, I would agree with that, but I don't think the difference is so large that OP's personal preferences shouldn't close the gap.

Per the links provided by OP for c/o 2011:

Berkeley - Firms + Clerks + Gov + PI = 91.72%
GULC - Firms + Clerks + Gov + PI = 86.6%

Berkeley - Firms of 501+ = 59.74%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 58.7%

Berkeley is the clear winner, but the gap is not large. If it were down to just employment prospects, I would pick Berkeley in almost every situation. But if OP has personal reasons to want to attend Georgetown, I don't think it's unreasonable to do so. That's what "peer schools" means, at least in the way that I was using it.

69% bar-admission-required jobs for GULC vs 90% for Berkeley (remember that it's not a real legal job if it doesn't require bar passage). 60% of private salaries reported for GULC vs. 92% of private salaries reported for Berkeley (and similar disparity in reporting of public-sector salaries). These really speak to the difference between the jobs obtained by Berkeley and GULC students.

Also, GULC's #s include 10% of their class being employed by the school. I don't know if Berkeley has a similar program, though.

[dannyde7]

Nope. GULC gets hated on too hard, maybe, but Berkeley is objectively better than GULC. No repetition of "peer schools are peer" is going to change that.

Again, I would agree with that, but I don't think the difference is so large that OP's personal preferences shouldn't close the gap.

Per the links provided by OP for c/o 2011:

Berkeley - Firms + Clerks + Gov + PI = 91.72%
GULC - Firms + Clerks + Gov + PI = 86.6%

Berkeley - Firms of 501+ = 59.74%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 58.7%

Berkeley is the clear winner, but the gap is not large. If it were down to just employment prospects, I would pick Berkeley in almost every situation. But if OP has personal reasons to want to attend Georgetown, I don't think it's unreasonable to do so. That's what "peer schools" means, at least in the way that I was using it.

69% bar-admission-required jobs for GULC vs 90% for Berkeley (remember that it's not a real legal job if it doesn't require bar passage). 60% of private salaries reported for GULC vs. 92% of private salaries reported for Berkeley (and similar disparity in reporting of public-sector salaries). These really speak to the difference between the jobs obtained by Berkeley and GULC students.

Also, GULC's #s include 10% of their class being employed by the school. I don't know if Berkeley has a similar program, though.

Yeah, this is what scares me most. I actually spoke with Georgetown's career services office last week just to get a gut check and they were less reassuring about the economy and job prospects than representatives from other schools.

I would love to hear more from people currently attending Berkeley/just graduated. What's the vibe there? Are people generally nice or cool? One thing I liked about Georgetown was that the population visiting for ASW seemed generally normal and relatable. I've heard that this is less of the case at schools like Columbia, Harvard, and so forth. Can anyone comment on this aspect of the student body? Can anyone else comment on jobs stuff there?

Thanks!

[Samara]

69% bar-admission-required jobs for GULC vs 90% for Berkeley. 60% of private salaries reported for GULC vs. 92% of private salaries reported for Berkeley (and similar disparity in reporting of public-sector salaries). These really speak to the difference between the jobs obtained by Berkeley and GULC students.

Also, GULC's #s include 10% of their class being employed by the school. I don't know if Berkeley has a similar program, though.

Fair point. I would like to know more about the nature of those gaps, though. Lobbyist jobs, for example, are probably classified as JD-preferred, but aren't necessarily less desirable.

There are so many confounding factors with GULC that it's hard to conclusively say where exactly it should be considered in relation to other schools. I guess it comes down to how comfortable you are with the less-predictable nature of GULC.

[TyrionLannister]

Berkeley - Firms of 501+ = 59.74%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 58.7%

Berkley - Firms+Clerks+Gov+PI = 266/310 grads = 85.8%
GULC - Firms+Clerks+Gov+PI = 512/644 grads = 79.5%
Berkley - Firms of 501+ = 92/310 grads = 29.6%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 162/644 grads = 25.2%

[Samara]

Berkeley - Firms of 501+ = 59.74%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 58.7%

Berkley - Firms+Clerks+Gov+PI = 266/310 grads = 85.8%
GULC - Firms+Clerks+Gov+PI = 512/644 grads = 79.5%
Berkley - Firms of 501+ = 92/310 grads = 29.6%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 162/644 grads = 25.2%

Whoops, thanks for the fix.

[TyrionLannister]

Berkeley - Firms of 501+ = 59.74%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 58.7%

Berkley - Firms+Clerks+Gov+PI = 266/310 grads = 85.8%
GULC - Firms+Clerks+Gov+PI = 512/644 grads = 79.5%
Berkley - Firms of 501+ = 92/310 grads = 29.6%
GULC - Firms of 501+ = 162/644 grads = 25.2%

Whoops, thanks for the fix.

No problem!

IMHO, 644 people in a graduating class seems like a ridiculously high number for a law school.

[flem]

IMHO, 644 people in a graduating class seems like a ridiculously high number for a law school.

GW graduates ~600ish a year as well. And then people wonder why it's so hard to break DC.

[TyrionLannister]

IMHO, 644 people in a graduating class seems like a ridiculously high number for a law school.

GW graduates ~600ish a year as well. And then people wonder why it's so hard to break DC.

Ugh. Law school greed.