Fordham vs GW ($$) Forum

[Wily]

Ah, good news always comes with a bit of bad news.

I just got off of Fordham's waitlist, but in their phone call they told me there was no chance of a merit scholarship. I'm still going to see if there's any need-based aid.

I'm currently deposited at GW, which is offering me $25k a year.

Even though I want to return to NY after law school, and despite Fordham's better placement numbers, I'm not sure Fordham is worth $75k more than GW. I'm actually really torn about this decision, though, because I really would prefer to live in NYC over DC.

Thoughts? My numbers are 2.69/168, and I'm retaking in June, although at this point I'm not exactly sure why.

[bk1]

Even though I want to return to NY after law school, and despite Fordham's better placement numbers, I'm not sure Fordham is worth $75k more than GW. I'm actually really torn about this decision, though, because I really would prefer to live in NYC over DC.

It's more than 75k. It's closer to 90k once you factor in interest. You're looking at something like 170k+ debt for GW and 260k+ debt for Fordham. If you are okay with working in DC I see no reason to take Fordham. You can always target NYC employment coming from GW. Sure it won't be as great as Fordham but that much extra debt isn't justifiable.

although at this point I'm not exactly sure why.

Because with a 170+ you have a shot at better schools. Even at GW you're looking at 170k+ debt which is insane for a school with such middling employment statistics. Maybe you'd prefer GW at 170k+ debt over a T14 with 270k+ debt but I think at that much debt I'd definitely take the T14 over GW. But in either case you're looking at an assload of debt.

[Wily]

although at this point I'm not exactly sure why.

Because with a 170+ you have a shot at better schools. Even at GW you're looking at 170k+ debt which is insane for a school with such middling employment statistics. Maybe you'd prefer GW at 170k+ debt over a T14 with 270k+ debt but I think at that much debt I'd definitely take the T14 over GW. But in either case you're looking at an assload of debt.

Thanks for the response. The problem is, unless I break 175, I really don't have a shot at T14 schools anyway, given my super low GPA. I don't think I will break 175 in June. If I get in the low 170's, aren't I looking at exactly the same schools as I am right now, except with the possibility of slightly higher scholarship offers? I don't want to go to the West Coast, so the only sub-T14 schools that would take me are like Vanderbilt, which isn't much better than GW/Fordham.

[MrAnon]

Don't do Fordham. Not worth it. You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW. The difference in job prospects is marginal.

[MrAnon]

One more thing-- your low GPA tends to scream that you should avoid these schools if not law school entirely. I'm sure there are exceptions but in general people with sub-3.0 GPAs get eaten alive in law school. If you had that much trouble with college, no matter the reason, law school will be a problem. its wonderful that you did well on the LSAT, and sure it shows you have the aptitude for this level of work, but the GPA says don't go down this road.

[flem]

Don't do Fordham. Not worth it. You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW. The difference in job prospects is marginal.

This is credited.

One more thing-- your low GPA tends to scream that you should avoid these schools if not law school entirely. I'm sure there are exceptions but in general people with sub-3.0 GPAs get eaten alive in law school. If you had that much trouble with college, no matter the reason, law school will be a problem. its wonderful that you did well on the LSAT, and sure it shows you have the aptitude for this level of work, but the GPA says don't go down this road.

This is not.

[CanadianWolf]

GWU since you are limiting your options to these two law schools.

[Wily]

GWU since you are limiting your options to these two law schools.

I have some other random options, but I decided against them. The closest was a full-ride to Cardozo, but I scared away by its 30% unemployed/underemployed statistics.

My full cycle is here: http://lawschoolnumbers.com/Wily

[CanadianWolf]

Consider asking GWU, WashUStL, WFU & Wm.&Mary for more money.

P.S. Not sure that you need a 175+ to get into a top 14--especially since a 174 is above all law schools' median. Next cycle will be a down cycle re: # of apps. to law school. In my opinion, a 171 will change your options in a significant manner. A 172 could result in admission to Northwestern, for example.

[Wily]

Consider asking GWU, WashUStL, WFU & Wm.&Mary for more money.

P.S. Not sure that you need a 175+ to get into a top 14--especially since a 174 is above all law schools' median. Next cycle will be a down cycle re: # of apps. to law school. In my opinion, a 171 will change your options in a significant manner. A 172 could result in admission to Northwestern, for example.

Hmm, that's encouraging news. I'll have to work as hard as I can between now and June 11 then. If I score higher than 172, I'll have probably the hardest decision of all, whether to sit out another cycle (and work in an agonizingly boring deadend low-paid job for another year) or not.

[dingbat]

You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW.

there is no flaw in this logic whatsoever

[roaringeagle]

can you ask washu for more money? It is really cheap to live there.

[MrAnon]

You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW.

there is no flaw in this logic whatsoever

Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

[flem]

Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.

[dingbat]

You do well at GW then the world is your oyster. You do crappy? Then you would have gotten creamed at Fordham anyway and you'll be glad you got the scholarship at GW.

there is no flaw in this logic whatsoever

Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

erm, I'm agreeing with your earlier statement that if OP were to do well at GW, opportunities will be available, whereas if OP blows at GW, OP would suck at Fordham as well, ergo OP should take the money

[bk1]

Thanks for the response. The problem is, unless I break 175, I really don't have a shot at T14 schools anyway, given my super low GPA. I don't think I will break 175 in June. If I get in the low 170's, aren't I looking at exactly the same schools as I am right now, except with the possibility of slightly higher scholarship offers? I don't want to go to the West Coast, so the only sub-T14 schools that would take me are like Vanderbilt, which isn't much better than GW/Fordham.

A 170+ will give you a shot at splitter-friendly schools (UVA/GULC/NU). A 172+ will give you a decent chance at them.

[utlaw2007]

Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.

Agreed! Not everyone takes undergrad seriously. The key is somehow convincing the law school admissions committee that you will care very much about doing well in law school.

[bk1]

That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.

Agreed! Not everyone takes undergrad seriously. The key is somehow convincing the law school admissions committee that you will care very much about doing well in law school.

+1 on undergrad. If you get a sub3 it's generally because you just don't care enough and/or are very lazy.

Though the danger is that sub3's might not change their habits in law school. However, as someone who is a and knows a decent number of sub3 UGPAs in law school, it seems to me that they fall pretty evenly along the curve.

[rad lulz]

Not only should you not go to Fordham for that price, you should not go to GW at that price.

[Wily]

Not only should you not go to Fordham for that price, you should not go to GW at that price.

But GW gave me such a nice leather binder and keychain. I have to go, right?

[MrAnon]

Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.

I think we've established that law schools will take people with sub 3.0 GPAs. You are saying Northwestern is known for it? I guess that could mean any number of things about the place. I'm sure Northwestern is full of people who once upon a time reasoned "screw this college thing; I'm just going to get into law school and kill it there; that's all that matters". Of course then they run into classmates that have the school thing down pat and all the work experience in the world isn't going to help them write an exam.

[MrAnon]

Okay i'm all wrong. In general people with sub 3.0 GPAs kill it at T25 schools!

Let's get real.

That wasn't the point of contention.

Also there are plenty of people at Northwestern that would disagree with you. A bad GPA isn't indicative of how smart you are, but rather how many fucks you gave about your undergrad studies.

Agreed! Not everyone takes undergrad seriously. The key is somehow convincing the law school admissions committee that you will care very much about doing well in law school.

There is no convincing necessary. If you can pay for school and you are the best option the school has to fill a seat, you are in. I made a 3.0 in college, said not a single word about it in any application, and got into a T25. I sure didn't twist anyones arm.

[roaringeagle]

Not only should you not go to Fordham for that price, you should not go to GW at that price.

But GW gave me such a nice leather binder and keychain. I have to go, right?

a leather binder!? They didn't give me shit!... except a 60k offer I turned down.

[flem]

I think we've established that law schools will take people with sub 3.0 GPAs. You are saying Northwestern is known for it? I guess that could mean any number of things about the place. I'm sure Northwestern is full of people who once upon a time reasoned "screw this college thing; I'm just going to get into law school and kill it there; that's all that matters". Of course then they run into classmates that have the school thing down pat and all the work experience in the world isn't going to help them write an exam.

[Wily]

Another question:
When Biglaw firms choose SA's or hire for full-time, do they look at undergrad GPA's? Someone from another forum says they do, but I haven't heard this before.