Duke$$ vs. Georgetown $$$ vs. Cornell ? Forum

[NDIrish2012]

Hey all, at this point I'm trying to decide between Duke with $72,000, GULC with $105,000 and Cornell (still waiting on $). My goal is NYC, Boston or DC Biglaw (city preference in that order). However, I would definitely like to clerk (AIII), but realize the chance of this at any of these schools is slim- but perhaps the greatest chance for AIII is at Duke, and if so could this be a relevant factor? Finally, I still want to hold out hope that I might be able to eventually transition into legal academia eventually.

So clearly I need to wait and see how much Cornell gives me (they are aware of both the other schools offers), but if we assume they are closer to Duke than to GULC, would it make sense to choose either Duke or Cornell over GULC with respect to these scholarships? If so, is choosing between Duke and Cornell really just a matter of preference- are they truly that equal in relevant categories? This (i.e. the equivalence of Duke and Cornell) is a point of contention, so I look forward to discussion!

EDIT- Cornell offered $60k total

Here is my total indebtedness upon graduation for Duke and Georgetown-
Duke- 182,177
GULC- 145,468
Cornell- 204,465

Right, so I can't really wrap my head around all the other things I have to say, but please feel free to comment or ask questions. Thanks a lot for your input! I can only research numbers and statistics so long- I need some other eyes on this!

[SaintFond]

Probably Duke. At the very least I think you can strike off Georgetown. Cornell might be worthwhile if they offer a bit more than Duke, especially if you want to work in NYC. Duke is a bit better than Cornell, but not by enough of a margin to prefer it over Cornell if Cornell gives you more money.

I wouldn't let clerkships/academia be a determining factor since even from Duke the chance would be pretty small, especially academia.

I'd do Cornell if they gave you G-town's money.

[Doorkeeper]

Duke wins over Georgetown.

If you want NYC biglaw first, which you indicated, go to Cornell if they give you over 50k. If not, Duke.

[quiver]

Duke wins over Georgetown.

If you want NYC biglaw first, which you indicated, go to Cornell if they give you over 50k. If not, Duke.

Yeah I think it really hinges on how much Cornell gives. GULC should be crossed off IMO.

[NDIrish2012]

Thanks for the responses! Any specific reasons for the GULC hate, even given the $ offered? I think I know the reasons, it'd just be nice to hear them from others.

[SaintFond]

GULC is a degree mill, 30% placement ITE, not offering you enough money to beat Duke's offer, etc.

But by all means, try to negotiate with all parties if you haven't already.

[CanadianWolf]

Duke or Cornell. (Georgetown's enormous class size works against it.)

[lawyerwannabe]

Right now it is Duke. If Cornell matches money, then go where you feel more comfortable (between Duke and Cornell). If Cornell gives GULC money and you don't hate Ithaca then go there.

[woeisme]

Depends how much Cornell gives. If financially comparable to Duke, Id do Cornell. If not, Duke. I wouldn't pick GULC.

[Doorkeeper]

Thanks for the responses! Any specific reasons for the GULC hate, even given the $ offered? I think I know the reasons, it'd just be nice to hear them from others.

Georgetown has *poorer biglaw placement rate. It was 30% for last year. Duke and Cornell are both much higher.

[bk1]

Georgetown has very poor biglaw placement rate. It was 30% for last year. Duke and Cornell are both much higher.

I wouldn't call it "very poor."

I'll agree that GULC gets hurt by its large class size but I feel that TLS exaggerates the difference between it and the rest of the T14 (consider that GULCers are more likely to want govt work and are more likely to target DC, one of the hardest markets, rather than NYC, one of the easiest markets). I could be wrong but I feel that it is a lot of conjecture on either side of the argument. I understand that this is a simplistic analysis but looking at NLJ250 data (which of course doesn't account for clerkships and a myriad other things): GULC was within 0.5% of UMich in 2011, within 0.5% of Duke in 2010, over 1% ahead of Cornell in 2009, roughly 5% behind UMich (50vs55) in 2008, roughly 5% behind Berkeley (48vs53) in 2007, almost 5% ahead of Berkeley (53vs49) in 2006, and tied with Berkeley in 2005. Yes GULC is the laggard at the tail end of the T14 because it has a lot of students, but I would not say that the difference is substantial enough to dismiss it outright when compared to another lower T14 at similar cost.

Not to mention on the unemployment/underemployment front GULC does about as poorly as other lower T14's (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181723). Which gives credence to the idea that self-selection hurts GULC's biglaw placement and not its job placement ability.

[emptyflare]

May be worth considering the lower COL in NC versus DC

[NDIrish2012]

Thanks for the input everyone. So BK, do you still think GULC is the best option of the three (assuming Cornell's offer is close to Duke's)? Otherwise, it seems like it's just a preference choice between Duke and Cornell- if the scholarships are similar. While D.C. does have a higher cost of living, I think total cost of attendance at each of these schools ends up being about the same per year (i.e. within a 3K of each other).

[flem]

Thanks for the input everyone. So BK, do you still think GULC is the best option of the three (assuming Cornell's offer is close to Duke's)? Otherwise, it seems like it's just a preference choice between Duke and Cornell- if the scholarships are similar. While D.C. does have a higher cost of living, I think total cost of attendance at each of these schools ends up being about the same per year (i.e. within a 3K of each other).

To me, it really seems like once you're hitting 150K worth of debt, the difference between 150K and 200K is negligible when you consider Cornell/Duke's better biglaw placement. I'd pay an extra 50K for a better shot at biglaw and at paying off my debt in a reasonable amount of time. If you strike out, you're boned either way, whether you owe 150 or 200K.

[bk1]

Thanks for the input everyone. So BK, do you still think GULC is the best option of the three (assuming Cornell's offer is close to Duke's)? Otherwise, it seems like it's just a preference choice between Duke and Cornell- if the scholarships are similar. While D.C. does have a higher cost of living, I think total cost of attendance at each of these schools ends up being about the same per year (i.e. within a 3K of each other).

I'd probably take Duke but I think it's a coinflip between Duke and GULC. If I were you I'd pick your preference of the 2 including whether 30k is worth saving to you or whether Duke's slight edge is worth it to you or whether you much prefer Durham or DC or something else.

I was more trying to point out that it is nonsensical to say that GULC has "very poor" placement and that it doesn't make sense to base things off of 1 year.

[woeisme]

I was more trying to point out that it is nonsensical to say that GULC has "very poor" placement and that it doesn't make sense to base things off of 1 year.

Of course, but if you look at trends with big law placement, isn't it fair to say it's Cornell > Duke >>> GULC?

[lawyerwannabe]

Might only be Cornell > Duke for NYC BigLaw. For BigLaw in general, Duke is probably better because it sends its students to a much more diverse set of markets which reduces competition for Duke students per market and ultimately results in more Duke students obtaining BigLaw.*

*Note: not confining BigLaw to V100 or NLJ250; using BigLaw to mean firms in markets that pay market-rate (e.g. $125k+ in NC, etc.)

[bk1]

Of course, but if you look at trends with big law placement, isn't it fair to say it's Cornell > Duke >>> GULC?

Based purely on biglaw, maybe (depending on what you mean by ">>>"). Their average percentages are roughly 52/50/43. My point was that while there is a difference between GULC and lower T14's it is greatly exaggerated on TLS. Not to mention the fact that this doesn't account for self-selection. Which, at least according to 1 year's unemployment/underemployment numbers, seems to indicate that GULC's numbers do stem in large part from self-selection.

[palmtrees11111]

yo duke 1L soon to be 2L taking questions, feel free to ask me anything here

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4&t=185002

[Law Sauce]

I would have chosen Gtown for academia, clerking, and nyc/dc big law, even over duke at the same price. It is a bigger place with more academic/historical clout. True Duke is placing better in big law currently but that has a lot to do with their ability to place well in the south. I think nyc and dc firms would view the two similarly. Some of your goals will require you to be highly ranked in your class, but if your goals were just any big law then I would probably choose Duke because Gtown is riskier for that. IMO the scholarship makes us for it to some extent. 105k is significant and the Gtown/duke difference probably isn't over the course of your career. I would not consider Cornell unless they equaled Duke's scholarship, which they should, and then I would choose Cornell only if you decide that you favor NYC big law over anything else. I'm really baffled why people would discount Gtown. I understand that the overall numbers are lower (the reason for this is likely the self-selection and the larger class size), but the top of the class is doing as well as anywhere. I think that there is a real anti-Gtown rap on this board partially because of the poor numbers and partially a reaction against the lay prestige that it has.

Edit: at any of these schools, you better show up ready to prove yourself (i.e. theres risk at all of them)

[NDIrish2012]

I would have chosen Gtown for academia, clerking, and nyc/dc big law, even over duke at the same price. It is a bigger place with more academic/historical clout. True Duke is placing better in big law currently but that has a lot to do with their ability to place well in the south. I think nyc and dc firms would view the two similarly. Some of your goals will require you to be highly ranked in your class, but if your goals were just any big law then I would probably choose Duke because Gtown is riskier for that. IMO the scholarship makes us for it to some extent. 105k is significant and the Gtown/duke difference probably isn't over the course of your career. I would not consider Cornell unless they equaled Duke's scholarship, which they should, and then I would choose Cornell only if you decide that you favor NYC big law over anything else. I'm really baffled why people would discount Gtown. I understand that the overall numbers are lower (the reason for this is likely the self-selection and the larger class size), but the top of the class is doing as well as anywhere. I think that there is a real anti-Gtown rap on this board partially because of the poor numbers and partially a reaction against the lay prestige that it has.

Edit: at any of these schools, you better show up ready to prove yourself (i.e. theres risk at all of them)

Thanks for the reply Law Sauce. I tend to agree with what you and BK have been saying about Georgetown. But I still find myself leaning towards Duke in this case (I still don't know what Cornell is going to give me), just because Biglaw is most likely where I am going to want to end up (academia is little more than a pipe-dream from these schools), and I can't ignore the fact that GULC's numbers (self-selection not withstanding) just don't give me greater than $30,000 worth of confidence (the difference in scholly between GULC and Duke). Man this is a difficult choice! Thanks again for all the replies.

[Law Sauce]

I would have chosen Gtown for academia, clerking, and nyc/dc big law, even over duke at the same price. It is a bigger place with more academic/historical clout. True Duke is placing better in big law currently but that has a lot to do with their ability to place well in the south. I think nyc and dc firms would view the two similarly. Some of your goals will require you to be highly ranked in your class, but if your goals were just any big law then I would probably choose Duke because Gtown is riskier for that. IMO the scholarship makes us for it to some extent. 105k is significant and the Gtown/duke difference probably isn't over the course of your career. I would not consider Cornell unless they equaled Duke's scholarship, which they should, and then I would choose Cornell only if you decide that you favor NYC big law over anything else. I'm really baffled why people would discount Gtown. I understand that the overall numbers are lower (the reason for this is likely the self-selection and the larger class size), but the top of the class is doing as well as anywhere. I think that there is a real anti-Gtown rap on this board partially because of the poor numbers and partially a reaction against the lay prestige that it has.

Edit: at any of these schools, you better show up ready to prove yourself (i.e. theres risk at all of them)

Thanks for the reply Law Sauce. I tend to agree with what you and BK have been saying about Georgetown. But I still find myself leaning towards Duke in this case (I still don't know what Cornell is going to give me), just because Biglaw is most likely where I am going to want to end up (academia is little more than a pipe-dream from these schools), and I can't ignore the fact that GULC's numbers (self-selection not withstanding) just don't give me greater than $30,000 worth of confidence (the difference in scholly between GULC and Duke). Man this is a difficult choice! Thanks again for all the replies.

Duke is a great choice as well. Congrats. I think trusting your gut is important, because you are all you got.

[woeisme]

I think these results are skewed anyway given the lack of definitive money from Cornell. Any word on that yet, OP? Your goals align perfectly with Cornell's strengths.

[NDIrish2012]

I think these results are skewed anyway given the lack of definitive money from Cornell. Any word on that yet, OP? Your goals align perfectly with Cornell's strengths.

Hey, yes I just got word on aid from Cornell. 60k over three years. So it's veery close to Duke, as I expected. But honestly, I expected Cornell to at least equal Duke... But yes, Cornell does align very well with my interest in NYC big law. What are your thought now that the full money picture is available?

[NDIrish2012]

Here's another quick question that might help me decide. Does anyone know how many people (number or percentage) these three schools, respectively, place into V10/V20 firms each year? If so, where are these sorts if statistics available? Thanks!