Chicago vs Penn vs Berkeley for California Big Law Forum

[TaipeiMort]

What has been nicest is that if you have demonstrated ties to CA it is pretty easy to get a CA job due to lower levels of competition among classmates.

So if we accept your reasoning ITT, doesn't that make NYU better than UChi for Chicago biglaw?

Possibly-- NYU doesn't have a huge alumni network in Chicago. Definitely for a Columbia or Harvard student though-- it is much easier to get in with Chicago ties to Chicago from these schools. Chicago has been a bloodbath for UChi students, with most of the qualified and still unemployed focusing on this market. There was simply too much competition among Chicago students for a limited number of spots. If I find out someone is unemployed and has socially normal, I assume that they either bid horribly or bid Chicago.

Northwestern actually placed more in Chicago than Chicago as well.

To sum up, I would really evaluate a school as a function of the number of students who want a market and can possibly get it and the number of available seats.

For Chicago in Chicago it was probably 80 that wanted Chicago and 40 available jobs.
For NYU in Chicago it might be 15 with Chicago ties and 20 available jobs.

NYU would therefore be much better for Chicago than UChicago if this were true.

[Tiago Splitter]

Better than Yale? That's some Chicago trolling right there.

Chicago isn't better than Yale, but Yale places far fewer into California than Harvard and Chicago. I believe this is because both have strong CA alumni networks. From glancing through firm directories as OCI prep, NYU, Columbia, and Yale just didn't have that many people at CA firms. I would guess that Arizona State, BYU, and Utah have close to as many alumni at CA firms as Yale.

Not sure what firms you looked at, but picking a couple at random didn't bear this out, at least for Columbia. Given that Columbia has placed around 10% of its class into California in recent years and is twice the size of Chicago, no one should be surprised.

[TaipeiMort]

I don't want to out myself, but I looked at two specific regions, and within a couple of types of work. In this areas, Columbia grads are sparse. They are also sparse in CA-grown firms which have practices tailored to CA clients and types of businesses. However, I noticed that Columbia grads are more prominent in LA and SF specifically in litigation and larger scale transaction work. I don't want to look too much into it, but this also may be self-selection at work-- the more traditional NYC practice areas tend to see more Columbia grads, and CA-local practice areas tend to see more Chicago grads.

It could also be that Columbia grads who start in NYC tend to end up in NYC-power house practice areas in CA through lateraling, and Columbia grads generally end up at firms where there is an existing network of Columbia grads.

[Twit]

Chi can open doors in CA (like Keker) that Penn never will.

Also, the cutthroat, competetive reputation of Chicago is completely overblown (after talking to kids at our ASW who had also visited Penn, it seemed like Penn was basically working really hard to instigate this).

They'll do anything to get the attention away from Sanduskygate.

Please tell me that you're aware that Penn State is NOT the University of Pennsylvania...

[soj]

It's a joke.

[The Brainalist]

Seriously. It's not like everyone doesn't understand the difference between the two campuses. UPenn State has the main campus in University Park, but its professional schools are located in Philly. Kind of like how Northwestern has the Evanston campus AND the downtown Chicago campus. Best of both worlds, IMO.

[cogitoergosum]

Seriously. It's not like everyone doesn't understand the difference between the two campuses. UPenn State has the main campus in University Park, but its professional schools are located in Philly. Kind of like how Northwestern has the Evanston campus AND the downtown Chicago campus. Best of both worlds, IMO.

This has to be the worst part of going to Penn... I mean, I'd get over it for the job placement and all, but man...

It's like driving a Maserati that looks like a Lebaron. You're like, "hey, did you see my new car," and your friends are all like, "uhh, yeah, it's that Lebaron right? yeah, it's cool (shrug)," and you don't want to correct them because you'll sound like a total douche, but inside you are seething because nobody actually has any idea how amazing you are.

I fully acknowledge that Brainalist might be (probably is) kidding. But it's only funny because it's the sad, sad reality, amiright?

[thelawyler]

Seriously. It's not like everyone doesn't understand the difference between the two campuses. UPenn State has the main campus in University Park, but its professional schools are located in Philly. Kind of like how Northwestern has the Evanston campus AND the downtown Chicago campus. Best of both worlds, IMO.

This has to be the worst part of going to Penn... I mean, I'd get over it for the job placement and all, but man...

It's like driving a Maserati that looks like a Lebaron. You're like, "hey, did you see my new car," and your friends are all like, "uhh, yeah, it's that Lebaron right? yeah, it's cool (shrug)," and you don't want to correct them because you'll sound like a total douche, but inside you are seething because nobody actually has any idea how amazing you are.

I fully acknowledge that Brainalist might be (probably is) kidding. But it's only funny because it's the sad, sad reality, amiright?

If you're that self conscious about it, add LAW SCHOOL to the end of "I go to Penn" and people who don't know will be like OMG LAWLYER.

[cogitoergosum]

Seriously. It's not like everyone doesn't understand the difference between the two campuses. UPenn State has the main campus in University Park, but its professional schools are located in Philly. Kind of like how Northwestern has the Evanston campus AND the downtown Chicago campus. Best of both worlds, IMO.

This has to be the worst part of going to Penn... I mean, I'd get over it for the job placement and all, but man...

It's like driving a Maserati that looks like a Lebaron. You're like, "hey, did you see my new car," and your friends are all like, "uhh, yeah, it's that Lebaron right? yeah, it's cool (shrug)," and you don't want to correct them because you'll sound like a total douche, but inside you are seething because nobody actually has any idea how amazing you are.

I fully acknowledge that Brainalist might be (probably is) kidding. But it's only funny because it's the sad, sad reality, amiright?

If you're that self conscious about it, add LAW SCHOOL to the end of "I go to Penn" and people who don't know will be like OMG LAWLYER.

Well yeah, I guess there's always that...

[Funkycrime]

Not that hard to understand, really. In Chicago, firms see very, very few Stanford students. The competition among the top firms for the few Cardinal is spirited. In LA, there are very few Chicago students looking for work. But the top firms tend to have a few Chicago partners and, in any event, want to have a summer class with a roster of students from each top school. This is not conjecture, it's a fairly obvious fact. We don't spend money on OCI for kicks and travel.

I'd venture that Boalt students have a broader range of easily found (ie, the firms come to you) prospects in CA than do students at CCN, and I'd guess Yale too. But the extra firm prospects (and we are just talking biglaw firms here) at Boalt are all going to be below the top tier CA firms that attend T6 OCI.

There's little doubt that Munger or whoever is going to dig deeper into UofC's class.

The reason this makes sense in the long run is that traditionally, old fashioned top firms have a certain number of slots for each school. So one ends up competing against classmates rather than across schools in a meaningful sense. Don't get me wrong, there is give and take around the margins (take more from local powerhouse A if the showing was dismal at T6 B). But that's a fallback position. Finally, as suggested above, there is a slight bias in non-NY major market firms built in against students from the NY T6. Not a bias based on perceived student quality; rather, perceived poor return on recruiting effort. Many large LA, SF, Chi firms don't have many NYU/CLS partners (per capita) compared to HLS, SLS, UofC. They also have difficulty competing for the top NY students against the top NY firms (which for 100 years and counting have an edge in pay, work and prestige). And there's a perception that NY students want to stay in NY more than non-NY students crave Boston, Chicago, etc. So *relatively* less effort to recruit in NY is often spent. I think this is easily overcome by CN students who make a minimal effort to show a committment to CA.

In summary, a better shot at a top CA firm from Chi, all else being equal, is not hard to fathom. If a firm has partner ties and spends money on OCI, they will fill some slots with kids from that school unless something goes very wrong. If every student is gunning for limited summer slots from LA firm X at UCLA and 2 UofC students are gunning for the same firm, then the UofC people obviously have a better shot. It really comes down to the pre-interview decision the firm made about the *school* by committing to OCI as much as anything.

Quality post. Thanks.