Duke v. UVA v. Cornell Forum

[hobojarpen]

I've visited both UVA & Cornell's ASWs and I feel that I'd enjoy both C-Ville & Ithaca. In addition, Cornell gave me a 15K/year scholarship and UVA said they're cautiously optimistic about offering me a 10-15K/year scholarship. I'd been deciding between these two schools for the past few weeks when I got admitted off of Duke's waitlist today via email in which they said that I'm eligible for a scholarship and that they encourage me to apply for it.

Like most people, I'm looking to go big law. I wouldn't mind starting in NY/Chi/DC, but my goal is to go big law in SoCal or NorCal right after graduation (born and raised in Orange County). I haven't visited any of my waitlisted options so I don't know what Durham is like, though I can't imagine it being THAT much different from C-Ville.

So yeah, here's the tough part: Though Duke encouraged me to apply for its scholarship, I don't know how much, if at all, I'd receive. Furthermore, accepting Duke's offer and applying and hoping for scholarship there would mean passing on UVA & Cornell whose deadlines (for me specifically) are both this coming Monday. Lastly, even if I decided to go to UVA, the scholarship offer is not official, only that they're cautiously optimistic about being able to offer me that amount before the end of Monday. Anyways, I'd love to hear from everyone's input and thanks in advance!

[Nelson]

If you can afford to, just multideposit and wait to get the final offers.

[msblaw89]

UVA has been consistently climbing the rankings...and it is arguably the most portable given the three choices. If you want Cali and biglaw...I think UVA will give you the most opportunities. Cornell is great for biglaw...but it is heavily concentrated in NY, Cali 2nd. Duke is also fairly national, but has a stronger southern focus.

[beachbum]

UVA has been consistently climbing the rankings...and it is arguably the most portable given the three choices. If you want Cali and biglaw...I think UVA will give you the most opportunities. Cornell is great for biglaw...but it is heavily concentrated in NY, Cali 2nd. Duke is also fairly national, but has a stronger southern focus.

dude what. I appreciate that you're trying to get a spot at Duke, but don't get that spot by giving false/misleading advice. There is no tangible difference in placement between Duke and UVA, whether we're looking at the south or LA or NYC.

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Edit: All else equal, though, I'd attend the school that costs the least out of Duke/UVA/Cornell. If UVA and Duke give you nothing, go Cornell. $45k is a lot of money when you're essentially picking between peer schools.

[Doorkeeper]

There is no tangible difference in placement between Duke and UVA, whether we're looking at the south or LA or NYC.

This. I think Cornell is out, unless you really liked it more than UVA.

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Yea...something seems off about this requirement.

I would go UVA or Duke if $$.

[envisciguy]

Like beachbum said, UVA and Duke are extremely similar peer schools. Placement is roughly the same and the towns/overall vibes are similar as well. Durham is a little more spread out than C-ville (where everything is basically right off campus) because of the forests, but it's still a college-town feel. I chose between these 2 after visiting both and liked UVA a little more myself. If you could somehow get a better indication of scholarships, I'd say pick the one with the better offer, because there's not much else that differentiates them. And as far as UVA "moving up in the rankings", yeah that's great to spout off for your friends, but the real difference between #7 and #11 is nonexistent.

[rayiner]

Like beachbum said, UVA and Duke are extremely similar peer schools. Placement is roughly the same and the towns/overall vibes are similar as well. Durham is a little more spread out than C-ville (where everything is basically right off campus) because of the forests, but it's still a college-town feel. I chose between these 2 after visiting both and liked UVA a little more myself. If you could somehow get a better indication of scholarships, I'd say pick the one with the better offer, because there's not much else that differentiates them. And as far as UVA "moving up in the rankings", yeah that's great to spout off for your friends, but the real difference between #7 and #11 is nonexistent.

Also, there is no consistent trend in UVA's rankings. The schools in the #8-#14 spots turn over quite a lot. UVA was tied for #7 in 2001, and was tied for #8 in 2000 and 2002, but was #10 2007-2009 before going back up to #8 last year and #7 this year. The rankings in this range don't mean anything.

[msblaw89]

UVA has been consistently climbing the rankings...and it is arguably the most portable given the three choices. If you want Cali and biglaw...I think UVA will give you the most opportunities. Cornell is great for biglaw...but it is heavily concentrated in NY, Cali 2nd. Duke is also fairly national, but has a stronger southern focus.

dude what. I appreciate that you're trying to get a spot at Duke, but don't get that spot by giving false/misleading advice. There is no tangible difference in placement between Duke and UVA, whether we're looking at the south or LA or NYC.

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Edit: All else equal, though, I'd attend the school that costs the least out of Duke/UVA/Cornell. If UVA and Duke give you nothing, go Cornell. $45k is a lot of money when you're essentially picking between peer schools.

I'm not spreading misinformation. Duke is known to be more "southern" and UVA is known to be slightly more "national". All 3 are great schools, but there are rankings for a reason. And while there may be no real difference between #7 and #11 statistically, there is an "intangible" difference. If rankings didn't matter, why would anyone chose Harvard for biglaw over UPenn? When statistically Penn places a greater proportion of their students in the NJL 250? For whatever reason UVA is higher than Duke and many people will hold it as such.

[msblaw89]

Like beachbum said, UVA and Duke are extremely similar peer schools. Placement is roughly the same and the towns/overall vibes are similar as well. Durham is a little more spread out than C-ville (where everything is basically right off campus) because of the forests, but it's still a college-town feel. I chose between these 2 after visiting both and liked UVA a little more myself. If you could somehow get a better indication of scholarships, I'd say pick the one with the better offer, because there's not much else that differentiates them. And as far as UVA "moving up in the rankings", yeah that's great to spout off for your friends, but the real difference between #7 and #11 is nonexistent.

Also, there is no consistent trend in UVA's rankings. The schools in the #8-#14 spots turn over quite a lot. UVA was tied for #7 in 2001, and was tied for #8 in 2000 and 2002, but was #10 2007-2009 before going back up to #8 last year and #7 this year. The rankings in this range don't mean anything.

From 2009- present it has been consistently increasing (10,10,9,7). Look I like Duke ( I would love to go), but if I had the chance at UVA I would go there

[Mr. Somebody]

I've visited both UVA & Cornell's ASWs and I feel that I'd enjoy both C-Ville & Ithaca. In addition, Cornell gave me a 15K/year scholarship and UVA said they're cautiously optimistic about offering me a 10-15K/year scholarship. I'd been deciding between these two schools for the past few weeks when I got admitted off of Duke's waitlist today via email in which they said that I'm eligible for a scholarship and that they encourage me to apply for it.

Like most people, I'm looking to go big law. I wouldn't mind starting in NY/Chi/DC, but my goal is to go big law in SoCal or NorCal right after graduation (born and raised in Orange County). I haven't visited any of my waitlisted options so I don't know what Durham is like, though I can't imagine it being THAT much different from C-Ville.

So yeah, here's the tough part: Though Duke encouraged me to apply for its scholarship, I don't know how much, if at all, I'd receive. Furthermore, accepting Duke's offer and applying and hoping for scholarship there would mean passing on UVA & Cornell whose deadlines (for me specifically) are both this coming Monday. Lastly, even if I decided to go to UVA, the scholarship offer is not official, only that they're cautiously optimistic about being able to offer me that amount before the end of Monday. Anyways, I'd love to hear from everyone's input and thanks in advance!

I'm also born and raised in SoCal and possibly looking to go back. I'm considering both UVA and Cornell. I visited both schools during their respective ASW's and there are a lot of CA students there planning to go back to the west coast. With your ties it shouldn't be an issue, and both schools will give you a shot at it with sufficient grades.

Choose based on personal fit as they are peer schools with respect to placement. If UVA doesn't match Cornell (and don't forget to factor in UVA's cheaper COA) then deposit at Cornell and use that offer to negotiate with Duke. If they do match then bring your UVA offer back to Cornell and see if they will up it. You may have to double deposit or ask for an extension but it's worth it as we're talking tens of thousands of dollars.

[Nelson]

If rankings didn't matter, why would anyone chose Harvard for biglaw over UPenn? When statistically Penn places a greater proportion of their students in the NJL 250? For whatever reason UVA is higher than Duke and many people will hold it as such.

This is silly. HYS students have good shots at other options (Art III, prestigious PI, fed gov, academia) that aren't open to Penn students. MVPBDCNG (with some minor distinction for CCN) are mostly fungible for NYC.

[Aberzombie1892]

OP if you aren't from CA, you most likely won't get CA from any of these. Honestly, your chances of secure CA without ties/IP is probably roughly the same across them.

If you can't get CA, what would be your second choice?

If NY/MA, go to Cornell.
If DC/GA, cheaper of UVA/Duke.

Overall, I vote for Cornell given your current offers.

[beachbum]

UVA has been consistently climbing the rankings...and it is arguably the most portable given the three choices. If you want Cali and biglaw...I think UVA will give you the most opportunities. Cornell is great for biglaw...but it is heavily concentrated in NY, Cali 2nd. Duke is also fairly national, but has a stronger southern focus.

dude what. I appreciate that you're trying to get a spot at Duke, but don't get that spot by giving false/misleading advice. There is no tangible difference in placement between Duke and UVA, whether we're looking at the south or LA or NYC.

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Edit: All else equal, though, I'd attend the school that costs the least out of Duke/UVA/Cornell. If UVA and Duke give you nothing, go Cornell. $45k is a lot of money when you're essentially picking between peer schools.

I'm not spreading misinformation. Duke is known to be more "southern" and UVA is known to be slightly more "national". All 3 are great schools, but there are rankings for a reason. And while there may be no real difference between #7 and #11 statistically, there is an "intangible" difference. If rankings didn't matter, why would anyone chose Harvard for biglaw over UPenn? When statistically Penn places a greater proportion of their students in the NJL 250? For whatever reason UVA is higher than Duke and many people will hold it as such.

I can't tell if you're being serious right now. You've been on this site for several months now; you know that USNews rankings mean absolutely nothing. That's fine if you want to brag to your friends about going to the #7 school instead of the #11 school, but in the read world (e.g., the world of legal hiring), there is no difference between the two.

And when I say "no difference," I mean no difference in placement power. A firm (whether in Atlanta or NYC or DC or wherever) is not going to dip farther into UVA's class than Duke's. And it's for this reason why people choose Harvard over Penn for biglaw. Because firms will dip farther into Harvard's class than Penn's.

So to say that Duke is more "southern" while UVA is more "national" is absolutely misleading. It's possible that Duke might place more in the south than UVA in any given year, but this doesn't mean that UVA's southern placement power is any less than Duke's. And the same logic applies to any other city/region. They're peers in placement power, even if they aren't peers in the (otherwise meaningless) USNews rankings.

[Mr. Somebody]

OP if you aren't from CA, you most likely won't get CA from any of these. Honestly, your chances of secure CA without ties/IP is probably roughly the same across them.

If you can't get CA, what would be your second choice?

If NY/MA, go to Cornell.
If DC/GA, cheaper of UVA/Duke.

Overall, I vote for Cornell given your current offers.

He's born and raised in OC

[whitman]

As beachbum said, talk to Duke on the phone and I bet they'll work with you and give you some money. Then go there. $ at Duke > possible $ at UVA.

[rayiner]

UVA has been consistently climbing the rankings...and it is arguably the most portable given the three choices. If you want Cali and biglaw...I think UVA will give you the most opportunities. Cornell is great for biglaw...but it is heavily concentrated in NY, Cali 2nd. Duke is also fairly national, but has a stronger southern focus.

dude what. I appreciate that you're trying to get a spot at Duke, but don't get that spot by giving false/misleading advice. There is no tangible difference in placement between Duke and UVA, whether we're looking at the south or LA or NYC.

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Edit: All else equal, though, I'd attend the school that costs the least out of Duke/UVA/Cornell. If UVA and Duke give you nothing, go Cornell. $45k is a lot of money when you're essentially picking between peer schools.

I'm not spreading misinformation. Duke is known to be more "southern" and UVA is known to be slightly more "national". All 3 are great schools, but there are rankings for a reason. And while there may be no real difference between #7 and #11 statistically, there is an "intangible" difference. If rankings didn't matter, why would anyone chose Harvard for biglaw over UPenn? When statistically Penn places a greater proportion of their students in the NJL 250? For whatever reason UVA is higher than Duke and many people will hold it as such.

It's not that rankings don't matter, it's that schools in certain groupings (HYS, CCN, MVPBDN) are so close together in the metrics underlying the rankings that the rankings within each group fluctuate dramatically and the ordering in any particular year aren't particularly relevant. E.g. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181415

For C/O 2011, Northwestern (#12) and Cornell (#14) beat Michigan (#10) and Virginia (#7). But the year before, Virginia (#9) beat Northwestern (#12) and Duke (#11), which beat Michigan (#7). Cornell (#13) destroyed everybody.

[rayiner]

Like beachbum said, UVA and Duke are extremely similar peer schools. Placement is roughly the same and the towns/overall vibes are similar as well. Durham is a little more spread out than C-ville (where everything is basically right off campus) because of the forests, but it's still a college-town feel. I chose between these 2 after visiting both and liked UVA a little more myself. If you could somehow get a better indication of scholarships, I'd say pick the one with the better offer, because there's not much else that differentiates them. And as far as UVA "moving up in the rankings", yeah that's great to spout off for your friends, but the real difference between #7 and #11 is nonexistent.

Also, there is no consistent trend in UVA's rankings. The schools in the #8-#14 spots turn over quite a lot. UVA was tied for #7 in 2001, and was tied for #8 in 2000 and 2002, but was #10 2007-2009 before going back up to #8 last year and #7 this year. The rankings in this range don't mean anything.

From 2009- present it has been consistently increasing (10,10,9,7). Look I like Duke ( I would love to go), but if I had the chance at UVA I would go there

The 4 years before that were: 8*, 9, 10*, 10. Was it in decline in 2004 but is on the rise now? That's retarded.

[NinerFan]

IMO, Duke/UVA would be more portable to CA.

[wiseowl]

Stop talking about USNWR fluctuations, it makes you look dumb.

Anyway, Durham and Charlottesville are pretty different. For me, a big factor in choosing Durham was that there's just more there. Between Raleigh, Durham and Chapel Hill you're basically getting 3 Charlottesvilles within a 20 minute drive. Raleigh has pro sports and between the three places there's just a ton of restaurants, museums, breweries, etc. Charlottesville has that, but not as much. Caveat: I grew up in central NC, so I had a running start. Durham has changed by leaps and bounds in the last 5-6 years however. In 2004 this was an easy choice for UVA.

I also needed to find my significant other a job. The chances of that happening were exponentially higher in Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill than in Albemarle County, Virginia.

I know dozens of Duke students going to CA. Some are from CA, some are not.

I think the final decision comes down to what money Duke can offer. Paying sticker anywhere is scary and I'm not sure it's a good move.

I just don't see Cornell being a factor in this choice.

[hobojarpen]

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Edit: All else equal, though, I'd attend the school that costs the least out of Duke/UVA/Cornell. If UVA and Duke give you nothing, go Cornell. $45k is a lot of money when you're essentially picking between peer schools.

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Yea...something seems off about this requirement.

I would go UVA or Duke if $$.

The wording on the email was:

"You will be officially admitted to Duke Law School when you complete the next step of our admission process – applying for financial aid and scholarship assistance. The Financial Aid Office will send you the scholarship application form and instructions via email. Since you may qualify for a Duke Law scholarship, I encourage you to apply. If you apply, you will receive your official admission letter and a decision on your scholarship application soon after the Committee completes the scholarship review.

If you do not plan to apply for scholarship assistance but wish to consider an offer of admission from Duke, please inform our office so that we can officially admit you now."

My plan right now is to call back UVA on Monday morning and see/confirm with them whether they have a scholarship set aside for me. I guess I'm a bit uncertain in terms of how to approach Duke. I guess I'll call their admissions office on Monday, mention my admission & scholarship offer from UVA (assuming I get one) and try to negotiate/secure something without having to commit to them by way of applying for aid.

[wiseowl]

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Edit: All else equal, though, I'd attend the school that costs the least out of Duke/UVA/Cornell. If UVA and Duke give you nothing, go Cornell. $45k is a lot of money when you're essentially picking between peer schools.

OP: do you have to accept Duke's offer to apply for the scholarship? That seems strange. I'd contact Duke and explain your situation (including the UVA offer/scholarship, which is a pretty big deal for us); I'm sure they'll work with you.

Yea...something seems off about this requirement.

I would go UVA or Duke if $$.

The wording on the email was:

"You will be officially admitted to Duke Law School when you complete the next step of our admission process – applying for financial aid and scholarship assistance. The Financial Aid Office will send you the scholarship application form and instructions via email. Since you may qualify for a Duke Law scholarship, I encourage you to apply. If you apply, you will receive your official admission letter and a decision on your scholarship application soon after the Committee completes the scholarship review.

If you do not plan to apply for scholarship assistance but wish to consider an offer of admission from Duke, please inform our office so that we can officially admit you now."

My plan right now is to call back UVA on Monday morning and see/confirm with them whether they have a scholarship set aside for me. I guess I'm a bit uncertain in terms of how to approach Duke. I guess I'll call their admissions office on Monday, mention my admission & scholarship offer from UVA (assuming I get one) and try to negotiate/secure something without having to commit to them by way of applying for aid.

Yea others have had the issue with this wording before. I wish they would change it. It doesn't mean you are committing.

[hobojarpen]

Yea others have had the issue with this wording before. I wish they would change it. It doesn't mean you are committing.

I see. I guess the question then is whether 1) I should be upfront about my UVA offer and try to coax whatever I can from Duke or 2) I should put down my deposit for UVA and patiently ride out the financial aid process at Duke and hope I get an amazing offer before UVA's 2nd deposit.

[wiseowl]

Yea others have had the issue with this wording before. I wish they would change it. It doesn't mean you are committing.

I see. I guess the question then is whether 1) I should be upfront about my UVA offer and try to coax whatever I can from Duke or 2) I should put down my deposit for UVA and patiently ride out the financial aid process at Duke and hope I get an amazing offer before UVA's 2nd deposit.

I don't think you have anything to lose by being upfront. I was offered a full ride at a T20 with 48 hrs to accept, and I asked Duke to respond. They did, and I went.

They'll want to see the UVA materials, either forwarded email or scanned paper. Like others have said, UVA is a close competitor for us so they will probably work hard to match. I don't know how WL affects any of this...I was admitted in January of my cycle and asked for my schools counteroffer the last week of March.

[hobojarpen]

I don't think you have anything to lose by being upfront. I was offered a full ride at a T20 with 48 hrs to accept, and I asked Duke to respond. They did, and I went.

They'll want to see the UVA materials, either forwarded email or scanned paper. Like others have said, UVA is a close competitor for us so they will probably work hard to match. I don't know how WL affects any of this...I was admitted in January of my cycle and asked for my schools counteroffer the last week of March.

Sounds good. Hoping Monday's conversations will crystallize things for me. I'm just read to move beyond all the uncertainty of things.

[hobojarpen]

As an update, I managed to get a $30K (total) scholarship from UVA today. Not much, but it's a lot better than paying sticker. So yeah, this scholarship offer effectively eliminates Cornell from consideration - though, on a side note, their offices were pretty bad with communicating and answering my questions/concerns. I'll put down the first deposit with UVA tonight and, pending an overwhelming scholarship offer from Duke in the coming days, it'll look like I'll be headed to CVille this fall.