Vanderbilt/George Washington/Notre Dame Forum

[Masala716]

Bioengineering major with a 3.5/168. I really have no preference on where to work, but given a choice I would prefer to be in either D.C., the south, or California because I'm not a big fan of the cold midwest or northeast.

I want to do IP law, which is why I am drawn to GW. However, it is much cheaper for me to go to Notre Dame. Does ND have portability because of its lay prestige? If I decided I wanted to work in the Bay Area, would ND and IP get me there? Would GW's rank as the no.3 IP law school have national portability? I would have loved to go to UCLA, but unfortunately I am on the wait list there.

I have ties to Seattle, but I do not want to come back to the Pacific Northwest.

[AntipodeanPhil]

I voted Vanderbilt, but Vanderbilt at sticker with no ties to the South makes me anxious.

Whatever you do, don't go to GW.

[RedBirds2011]

Bioengineering major with a 3.5/168. I really have no preference on where to work, but given a choice I would prefer to be in either D.C., the south, or California because I'm not a big fan of the cold midwest or northeast.

I want to do IP law, which is why I am drawn to GW. However, it is much cheaper for me to go to Notre Dame. Does ND have portability because of its lay prestige? If I decided I wanted to work in the Bay Area, would ND and IP get me there? Would GW's rank as the no.3 IP law school have national portability? I would have loved to go to UCLA, but unfortunately I am on the wait list there.

I have ties to Seattle, but I do not want to come back to the Pacific Northwest.

I'll let others address your other questions, but I was also a bio person that initially thought IP would make sense for me. However, attorneys informed me that a PhD is really needed these days to pursue the prosecution side at least for biotech stuff. But maybe since its combined with engineering it would be ok, I'm not sure. However, this doesn't keep you from litigation side.

Also, I vote vandy

[Masala716]

so I have to get a PhD to do IP? Jesus.

[Masala716]

Whatever you do, don't go to GW.

Why not GW?

[angrybird]

Whatever you do, don't go to GW.

Why not GW?

vandy at sticker might be cheaper tbh

[RedBirds2011]

so I have to get a PhD to do IP? Jesus.

Yea I had the same reaction when I learned about it. Biotech patent pros has insane credential requirements to get a job. And it has to do with saturation problems again. Bio PhDs are even more saturated than lawyers so they move to law for security in IP thus pushing bio bachelors out. Again though, you could still do IP litigation if you got with a big firm. And again, since you are mixed with engineering you might be ok for medical device prosecution. I was pure bio so I was out for that.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Whatever you do, don't go to GW.

Why not GW?

The usual reasons. Many of the best t14 students want jobs in DC. For the remaining jobs, GW grads will be competing - at a disadvantage - with hundreds of Georgetown grads and the top students from various lower-ranked schools in the area (William & Mary, George Mason, Washington & Lee, et cetera).

Also, I don't think GW has a good reputation outside of the DC area - definitely not when compared to Vandy and ND.

[bigeast03]

I voted for Notre Dame, strictly based on the cost. I hate doing this, but is a retake/year off an option? Two more points on the LSAT opens up MVP on down. Specifically, I think Duke would be excellent for the goals you stated. I took this year off and retook, and I honestly think it was the best choice I could've made.

[Masala716]

I voted for Notre Dame, strictly based on the cost. I hate doing this, but is a retake/year off an option? Two more points on the LSAT opens up MVP on down. Specifically, I think Duke would be excellent for the goals you stated. I took this year off and retook, and I honestly think it was the best choice I could've made.

Sure it is. Problem is my gpa may drop to a 3.3. I got an Incomplete that I was going to let turn into an F. Guess I'll have to work on tha

[bigeast03]

I voted for Notre Dame, strictly based on the cost. I hate doing this, but is a retake/year off an option? Two more points on the LSAT opens up MVP on down. Specifically, I think Duke would be excellent for the goals you stated. I took this year off and retook, and I honestly think it was the best choice I could've made.

Sure it is. Problem is my gpa may drop to a 3.3. I got an Incomplete that I was going to let turn into an F. Guess I'll have to work on tha

If you can keep your GPA up and think you can study up enough to get a 170 (with a 168, I have full confidence that you can), I think you would have a very real shot at Duke next cycle. Duke would give you strong options in the south and is a contender in D.C. Duke at sticker is a better option than any of the current choice, IMHO.

[FastLife]

I'm thinking of putting down a seat deposit at ND, and retaking the LSAT in June. If I do better, I will reapply in the fall. If I do worse, I'll go to ND. I am comfortable with graduating from ND.

Maybe if I do really well my first year I will transfer to Chicago or Northwestern...I may not even go... a transfer acceptance may leverage ND into giving me more money for my 2L and 3L year. I really loved ND's campus, and would like to be there for three years.

[Gail]

there is such a disparity of opinions on TLS that I don't know why we ask for advice.


Vanderbilt at sticker has been the second most popular option (though ND rightfully takes it away). Yet, in just one thread across the forum, someone else states that Chicago isn't worth sticker.

[Masala716]

I'm thinking of putting down a seat deposit at ND, and retaking the LSAT in June. If I do better, I will reapply in the fall. If I do worse, I'll go to ND. I am comfortable with graduating from ND.

Maybe if I do really well my first year I will transfer to Chicago or Northwestern...I may not even go... a transfer acceptance may leverage ND into giving me more money for my 2L and 3L year. I really loved ND's campus, and would like to be there for three years.

I was thinking the same. I never thought about leveraging a school for more money via a transfer app after 1L. hmm.

[angrybird]

there is such a disparity of opinions on TLS that I don't know why we ask for advice.


Vanderbilt at sticker has been the second most popular option (though ND rightfully takes it away). Yet, in just one thread across the forum, someone else states that Chicago isn't worth sticker.

convincing people not to go to law school is just too much work. most of us have given up.

[stratocophic]

so I have to get a PhD to do IP? Jesus.

Yea I had the same reaction when I learned about it. Biotech patent pros has insane credential requirements to get a job. And it has to do with saturation problems again. Bio PhDs are even more saturated than lawyers so they move to law for security in IP thus pushing bio bachelors out. Again though, you could still do IP litigation if you got with a big firm. And again, since you are mixed with engineering you might be ok for medical device prosecution. I was pure bio so I was out for that.

Lemme make sure a few things are clear for the IP people who are looking at this.

BME =/= Biology, big difference, and the patents you'd work on with a tech background in each are very different.

PhD is needed for biology patents, i.e. drugs and medicine and whatever else you bio people do.

Bachelors in BME is plenty for prosecuting standard mechanical patents and medical devices, maybe even a little bit of EE or CompSci stuff depending on your background. Either is fine for IP litigation, my sense is that engineering still > bio but you don't even need a tech background so really your law grades are going to be the determining factor.

IP specialty rankings don't mean jack, you can definitely get a biglaw IP job out of a T25 with just decent grades rather than very good ones, and your undergrad grades are pretty good for IP purposes). Personally I'd take Vandy if you're more worried about the strength of the school you attend and want the best shot at top firms, or else the cheapest option of the three if you think you'd be fine doing patent prosecution instead of litigation.

Edit: didn't see the poll. I'd go with ND - Vandy isn't worth 100k more than ND, at least not to someone with an IP background. GW isn't worth 60k more than ND, either.

[bigeast03]

there is such a disparity of opinions on TLS that I don't know why we ask for advice.


Vanderbilt at sticker has been the second most popular option (though ND rightfully takes it away). Yet, in just one thread across the forum, someone else states that Chicago isn't worth sticker.

I think that it's definitely relative when looking at competing options. With Chicago at sticker v. UCLA at 105k, you have to look at the marginal gain in employment when going to Chicago v. the cost-effectiveness of UCLA. In that case I don't know that I'd take Chicago either.
In this instance, Duke at sticker v. Vandy at sticker/ND with a scholly would make Duke a no-brainer. If there were a corresponding change in scholarship at Vandy, it might be a different analysis. Either of these two scenarios is dependent upon a successful retake.

[RedBirds2011]

so I have to get a PhD to do IP? Jesus.

Yea I had the same reaction when I learned about it. Biotech patent pros has insane credential requirements to get a job. And it has to do with saturation problems again. Bio PhDs are even more saturated than lawyers so they move to law for security in IP thus pushing bio bachelors out. Again though, you could still do IP litigation if you got with a big firm. And again, since you are mixed with engineering you might be ok for medical device prosecution. I was pure bio so I was out for that.

Lemme make sure a few things are clear for the IP people who are looking at this.

BME =/= Biology, big difference, and the patents you'd work on with a tech background in each are very different.

PhD is needed for biology patents, i.e. drugs and medicine and whatever else you bio people do.

Bachelors in BME is plenty for prosecuting standard mechanical patents and medical devices, maybe even a little bit of EE or CompSci stuff depending on your background. Either is fine for IP litigation, my sense is that engineering still > bio but you don't even need a tech background so really your law grades are going to be the determining factor.

IP specialty rankings don't mean jack, you can definitely get a biglaw IP job out of a T25 with just decent grades rather than very good ones, and your undergrad grades are pretty good for IP purposes). Personally I'd take Vandy if you're more worried about the strength of the school you attend and want the best shot at top firms, or else the cheapest option of the three if you think you'd be fine doing patent prosecution instead of litigation.

TITCR. Again, my experience is from pure bio not bioeng.

[Masala716]

Is GW a substantially better school than ND? GW seems to have a much more diverse academic curriculum. I am very interested in the Attorney General Honors program after grad, would GW give me a much better shot at Attorney General Honors or at an A3 clerkship than ND would?

I like DC more than South Bend and would much rather work in DC after grad than the midwest. If I don't get into AG honors or an A3 clerkship, which school gives me a better chance at big law? I saw that both schools were pretty much at the same %mark when it came to NLJ250 placement.

If money was even, I would pick GW over Notre Dame. Unfortunately it isn't, and that additional 60k plus interest scares me. Do you guys think the pros outweigh the financial cons?

[dingbat]

I'm thinking of putting down a seat deposit at ND, and retaking the LSAT in June. If I do better, I will reapply in the fall. If I do worse, I'll go to ND. I am comfortable with graduating from ND.

Maybe if I do really well my first year I will transfer to Chicago or Northwestern...I may not even go... a transfer acceptance may leverage ND into giving me more money for my 2L and 3L year. I really loved ND's campus, and would like to be there for three years.

I was thinking the same. I never thought about leveraging a school for more money via a transfer app after 1L. hmm.

Seems like a bad idea to me. They could let you go to free up space for an incoming transfer student willing to pay sticker
Remember, after 1L, they no longer need you for your numbers

[dingbat]

Is GW a substantially better school than ND? GW seems to have a much more diverse academic curriculum. I am very interested in the Attorney General Honors program after grad, would GW give me a much better shot at Attorney General Honors or at an A3 clerkship than ND would?

I like DC more than South Bend and would much rather work in DC after grad than the midwest. If I don't get into AG honors or an A3 clerkship, which school gives me a better chance at big law? I saw that both schools were pretty much at the same %mark when it came to NLJ250 placement.

If money was even, I would pick GW over Notre Dame. Unfortunately it isn't, and that additional 60k plus interest scares me. Do you guys think the pros outweigh the financial cons?

Go to Notre Dame. Your chances of A3 clerkship is minimal either way so don't waste thè extra money.
Don't get too caught up in rankings. Definitely don't get caught up in specialty rankings or specialty programs. Those are mostly a marketing ploy

[stratocophic]

Is GW a substantially better school than ND? I am very interested in the Attorney General Honors program after grad, would GW give me a much better shot at Attorney General Honors or at an A3 clerkship than ND would? Do you guys think the pros outweigh the financial cons?

(Absolutely not)^3

[mi-chan17]

Is GW a substantially better school than ND? GW seems to have a much more diverse academic curriculum. I am very interested in the Attorney General Honors program after grad, would GW give me a much better shot at Attorney General Honors or at an A3 clerkship than ND would? If I don't get into AG honors or an A3 clerkship, which school gives me a better chance at big law? I saw that both schools were pretty much at the same %mark when it came to NLJ250 placement.

1) No, GW is not a substantially better school than ND; they're peers.

2) Would GW give you a better shot for AG Honors? Yes, I think so. However, it still isn't a good shot. The federal budget is crap, and as a result Honors is taking fewer and fewer people. It's difficult from any school, and GW is no exception.

3) I don't think GW would give you any better of a chance at A3 clerkships than ND would.

4) The percentage chance at biglaw is probably about the same, the difference is just going to be the markets they put people into. There'll be more GW grads in DC biglaw and more ND grads in Chicago biglaw. And neither puts as many people into biglaw as Vandy does and certainly not as many as the T14 schools.

HOWEVER, if you're talking about the number of people that get put into market-paying IP jobs, GW outstrips ND. Not just because we have a huge IP program or something (although we do), but because there are more IP jobs in DC.

Is a marginally better chance at Honors and a better shot at IP worth $60k + interest. That, I don't know. I think that's really going to come down to personal preference. I'm not one of our IP people, so it might be worth PMing some of the folks on here who are to find out exactly how IPSecure they are. I am one of our wannabe public sector/fed government people, and so far I'm doing okay, but I have no idea if it'll work out in the long run; if that's your main consideration, I probably wouldn't recommend gambling $60k on it.

[Aberzombie1892]

Notre Dame is the best debt-to-post graduation employment option. GW students probably do about the same on the job market, but it costs $50K more. Vanderbilt students do better than Notre Dame or GW, but not better enough to justify the astronomical price tag. Therefore, Vanderbilt should not be seriously considered unless it comes up with a fair scholarship.

There are only two real issues between ND and GW. The first was obviously the price difference. The second is the difference in internship opportunities.

GW offers you the opportunity to intern at incredible places through the academic year, 1L summer, and 2L summer without having to move. While those benefits are worth a lot of money, it's difficult to assign a dollar value to them. Further, DC is the one of the places that you would like to end up. ND, on the other hand, would not only essentially require you to move out of state during the summers for interesting work, but also limit your jobs during the academic year, as even crappy local jobs would be extremely hard to get due to the location of the school.

Ultimately, it's difficult to give a fair assessment of what would truly be better for your goals. ND is cheaper by $50K, and that is nothing to sneeze at. However, GW gives you incredible internship opportunities and is located where you want to end up.

[emkay625]

I voted Vanderbilt.

When will you know for sure about that GPA issue?