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[sn20]

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[Nicholasnickynic]

I have strong Texas ties and would like Biglaw after graduation. Unless I were to receive an offer from the super elite firms in NYC (Wachtell, Cravath, SullCrom, etc.), I would like to work in Texas.

From speaking with recruiters at Texas firms, the general grade guidelines for NYU, UVA, Duke are top 50% or 3.0-3.33 and for Texas it's about top 35% or 3.55. Is the 15% cushion worth the extra money considering I have strong ties?

-side note: I thought a 3.0 at NYU, UVA, Duke was below median?

UT, UT, UT, UT.

If you fail at big law and are over 100k in debt, you are in a LOT of trouble.
Outside big law, there are a few jobs that are 70 or 80k than it drops steeply down into the 40/50k range. If you are 100k + in debt, you are in TROUBLE.


With UT you still have a VERY good shot at biglaw, and if it doesn't happen, you are still in a great position to do something else with so little debt.

With the other places, its pretty much get big law or bust. What happens if you get to law school and find you have a passion for public defense? Or regular criminal defense? Or maybe be a city attorney? A prosecutor? Work for the DoJ? Environmental law? None of those are feasible unless you go to UT.

UT BEST CASE SCENARIO: Get big law, make bank
UT WORST CASE SCENARIO: Don't get big law, do a job you hate- but not be drowning in debt


OTHER SCHOOLS BEST CASE SCENARIO: get big law, make bank
OTHER SCHOOLS WORST CASE SCENARIO: Don't get big law, do a job you hate while your wollow in debt.

Sure, you are more likely to get biglaw at the other schools, but the worst case scenario from the other schools SUCKS.



Additionally, Protip: Unless you like working, LITERALLY 70 hours a week, you won't be happy in big law.

[SaintFond]

Not familiar with your financial situation, but if you want to work in Texas, you have ties there, and UT is offering you a full ride, I'd probably take it. Also, there's a good chance you'd place highly at Texas, in which case you'd have good prospects.

I'd only consider the others if you're a complete prestige whore who HAS to do T-14 and/or work at some V10-20 firm.

Also, I suppose this is a good time to ask, but what usually qualifies as "full ride?" Is full ride JUST complete tuition +fee remission, or is it tuition remission AND stipend?

[sn20]

The scholarship is tuition and fees only. And in reference to the top firms in NYC, I don't want to be a career attorney. Many people in the field I eventually want to work have elite firms on their resume so I think it would help.

[Nicholasnickynic]

The scholarship is tuition and fees only. And in reference to the top firms in NYC, I don't want to be a career attorney. Many people in the field I eventually want to work have elite firms on their resume so I think it would help.

If you are looking to break outside of the legal field, I would think prestige is everything.

[SaintFond]

The scholarship is tuition and fees only. And in reference to the top firms in NYC, I don't want to be a career attorney. Many people in the field I eventually want to work have elite firms on their resume so I think it would help.

Yeah, I suppose it might help if you told us what your future plans are.

[sn20]

The scholarship is tuition and fees only. And in reference to the top firms in NYC, I don't want to be a career attorney. Many people in the field I eventually want to work have elite firms on their resume so I think it would help.

Yeah, I suppose it might help if you told us what your future plans are.

Ultimately, my goals are all business-related and bunch of maybe's. Maybe in-house at a large public company, maybe work at a startup. I have some interest in hedge funds, private equity, VC work. I guess the point is that I don't really know, but I'm sure I want to do transactional work. And the top transactional practices would give me the best exit options.

[CanadianWolf]

Texas makes sense both financially & professionally.

P.S. Interesting that UCLA with $50,000 per year scholarship didn't make your final cut.

[SaintFond]

The scholarship is tuition and fees only. And in reference to the top firms in NYC, I don't want to be a career attorney. Many people in the field I eventually want to work have elite firms on their resume so I think it would help.

Yeah, I suppose it might help if you told us what your future plans are.

Ultimately, my goals are all business-related and bunch of maybe's. Maybe in-house at a large public company, maybe work at a startup. I have some interest in hedge funds, private equity, VC work. I guess the point is that I don't really know, but I'm sure I want to do transactional work. And the top transactional practices would give me the best exit options.

Well, on the one hand, having minimal debt would allow you to take more risks, so you wouldn't necessarily have to sell your soul to BigLaw for years to pay back the debt. On the other hand, as someone above has suggested, prestttige may be even more important outside of the legal field than within it, in which case UT might not be your best bet. Duke might be a nice mean in this regard, since they are giving you more money than anyone but UT and they have not only good law prestige but even better lay prestige.

I am not sure how familiar people outside of law are with law school rankings. A lot of people probably don't even know that NYU, UVA, and UT have good law schools, but I would suspect they know that Duke does.

Texas makes sense both financially & professionally.

P.S. Interesting that UCLA with $50,000 per year scholarship didn't make your final cut.

That's effectively full ride (out of state) at UCLA, no? Why would he take full ride at UCLA over full ride at Texas, given that they are essentially peer schools and he wants to work in Texas?

[TrialLawyer16]

If what those recruiters told you is spot-on then to go to UT you're essentially at the very minimum betting 65k that you can beat out 2/3 of your class as opposed 1/2. If I were you I'd take that bet and go to UT. If we were playing cards, you'd look at it this way: there's only a 15% chance that you land in that gap between 35% and 50%. Therefore, there's at least an 85% chance you'd be making a good call here by saving 65k-120k and going to UT. If someone told you had an 85% chance to make 65k-120k, what would you say? I'd take that bet any day of the week. Congratulations, you're holding pocket Aces, and to me I think this is UT all the way.

Also, as a side note: I'm willing to bet that anyone that lands between 35-50% of their class at UT that doesn't get BigLaw is still able to get a decent job. If you're in the bottom half you're in the same boat no matter which of these schools you graduate from with regards to what those firms told you, but if you're in the bottom half at UT you'd be anywhere from 65k-120k richer. Looking at it like that, and with your goals, I don't see any reason why you would pick any of these other schools over UT.

[redbullvodka]

If what those recruiters told you is spot-on then to go to UT you're essentially at the very minimum betting 65k that you can beat out 2/3 of your class as opposed 1/2. If I were you I'd take that bet and go to UT. If we were playing cards, you'd look at it this way: there's only a 15% chance that you land in that gap between 35% and 50%. Therefore, there's at least an 85% chance you'd be making a good call here by saving 65k-120k and going to UT. If someone told you had an 85% chance to make 65k-120k, what would you say? I'd take that bet any day of the week. Congratulations, you're holding pocket Aces, and to me I think this is UT all the way.

Just bad math eveywhere.

I think the middle grounds are more attractive than full ride at UT -- UVA at 120K or Duke at 105K is pretty attractive, particularly because of UVA's southern dominance.

And honestly 160K for NYU, given it's incredible LRAP? That's a pretty solid deal, and would be your best shot at the prestigious v10's you mentioned. Don't be blinded by the fact that you have a full ride (especially when you still incur 50k of debt) -- you have numerous sensible options here.

[roaringeagle]

I vote for UVA. I suspect some are telling you to go to Texas because they are waiting to get off that UVA waitlist.

[TrialLawyer16]

If what those recruiters told you is spot-on then to go to UT you're essentially at the very minimum betting 65k that you can beat out 2/3 of your class as opposed 1/2. If I were you I'd take that bet and go to UT. If we were playing cards, you'd look at it this way: there's only a 15% chance that you land in that gap between 35% and 50%. Therefore, there's at least an 85% chance you'd be making a good call here by saving 65k-120k and going to UT. If someone told you had an 85% chance to make 65k-120k, what would you say? I'd take that bet any day of the week. Congratulations, you're holding pocket Aces, and to me I think this is UT all the way.

Just bad math eveywhere.
I think the middle grounds are more attractive than full ride at UT -- UVA at 120K or Duke at 105K is pretty attractive, particularly because of UVA's southern dominance.

And honestly 160K for NYU, given it's incredible LRAP? That's a pretty solid deal, and would be your best shot at the prestigious v10's you mentioned. Don't be blinded by the fact that you have a full ride (especially when you still incur 50k of debt) -- you have numerous sensible options here.

1) That math is solid. You must be miscomprehending something.
2) Just bad spelling everywhere.

[timbs4339]

I have strong Texas ties and would like Biglaw after graduation. Unless I were to receive an offer from the super elite firms in NYC (Wachtell, Cravath, SullCrom, etc.), I would like to work in Texas.

From speaking with recruiters at Texas firms, the general grade guidelines for NYU, UVA, Duke are top 50% or 3.0-3.33 and for Texas it's about top 35% or 3.55. Is the 15% cushion worth the extra money considering I have strong ties?

-side note: I thought a 3.0 at NYU, UVA, Duke was below median?

EDIT: Ultimately, my goals after Biglaw are all business-related and bunch of maybe's. Maybe in-house at a large public company, maybe work at a startup. I have some interest in hedge funds, private equity, VC work. I guess the point is that I don't really know, but I'm sure I want to do transactional work. And the top transactional practices would give me the best exit options.

What about working for a lower-ranked NYC firm? Texas is not going to be certain from NYU or UVA, but you should be able to wrangle your way into some NYC firm that does corporate work even if it is not so highly ranked overall.

[Mr. Somebody]

That's effectively full ride (out of state) at UCLA, no? Why would he take full ride at UCLA over full ride at Texas, given that they are essentially peer schools and he wants to work in Texas?

For a veteran poster his advice in here is usually bizarre.

I would go with Duke in this situation. It sounds like you want to leave the door open to going after elite NY Firms and it would be easier to do that from a T14

[Doorkeeper]

I say take your pick between UVA and Duke, especially if you have any interest in NYC (which you seem to have). Personally, I woukd take UVA over Duke, but that comes down to personal preference.

[redbullvodka]

If what those recruiters told you is spot-on then to go to UT you're essentially at the very minimum betting 65k that you can beat out 2/3 of your class as opposed 1/2. If I were you I'd take that bet and go to UT. If we were playing cards, you'd look at it this way: there's only a 15% chance that you land in that gap between 35% and 50%. Therefore, there's at least an 85% chance you'd be making a good call here by saving 65k-120k and going to UT. If someone told you had an 85% chance to make 65k-120k, what would you say? I'd take that bet any day of the week. Congratulations, you're holding pocket Aces, and to me I think this is UT all the way.

Just bad math eveywhere.
I think the middle grounds are more attractive than full ride at UT -- UVA at 120K or Duke at 105K is pretty attractive, particularly because of UVA's southern dominance.

And honestly 160K for NYU, given it's incredible LRAP? That's a pretty solid deal, and would be your best shot at the prestigious v10's you mentioned. Don't be blinded by the fact that you have a full ride (especially when you still incur 50k of debt) -- you have numerous sensible options here.

1) That math is solid. You must be miscomprehending something.
2) Just bad spelling everywhere.

The arithmetic is right -- the probability calculations (and the assumptions that they rely upon) are wrong. The issue should be whether he'd rather be median owing 160k+ interest at NYU and more likely than not getting a biglaw job, or median at UT owing 50K+interest (which has a significant chance of leading to mid or shitlaw, and thus much less potential for the in-house/business moves the OP wants to make later).

Edit: Even better, median at Duke/UVA owing 100-120K in debt, with a much better shot of biglaw/a job than median at UT with only 50Kish less debt to service.

[dixiecupdrinking]

People go nuts over the words "full ride," but you're only talking about paying around $45k more for Duke than Texas, or $60k more for UVA. Living in Austin is still an expense. I think paying a little more at the other schools is worth it. I don't know why you would only want to go to a V5 firm in NYC and suspect that as you learn more about firm hiring and their strengths you may become open to a wider range of NYC firms, which UVA or Duke (or NYU obviously) will open up to you. None of those schools will close Texas doors and they will all open others.

[redbullvodka]

People go nuts over the words "full ride," but you're only talking about paying around $45k more for Duke than Texas, or $60k more for UVA. Living in Austin is still an expense. I think paying a little more at the other schools is worth it. I don't know why you would only want to go to a V5 firm in NYC and suspect that as you learn more about firm hiring and their strengths you may become open to a wider range of NYC firms, which UVA or Duke (or NYU obviously) will open up to you. None of those schools will close Texas doors and they will all open others.

+10000

Full rides are only as valuable as the next expensive option. The extra expense (very little in the case of UVA/Duke) seems absolutely worth it.

[TrialLawyer16]

If what those recruiters told you is spot-on then to go to UT you're essentially at the very minimum betting 65k that you can beat out 2/3 of your class as opposed 1/2. If I were you I'd take that bet and go to UT. If we were playing cards, you'd look at it this way: there's only a 15% chance that you land in that gap between 35% and 50%. Therefore, there's at least an 85% chance you'd be making a good call here by saving 65k-120k and going to UT. If someone told you had an 85% chance to make 65k-120k, what would you say? I'd take that bet any day of the week. Congratulations, you're holding pocket Aces, and to me I think this is UT all the way.

Just bad math eveywhere.
I think the middle grounds are more attractive than full ride at UT -- UVA at 120K or Duke at 105K is pretty attractive, particularly because of UVA's southern dominance.

And honestly 160K for NYU, given it's incredible LRAP? That's a pretty solid deal, and would be your best shot at the prestigious v10's you mentioned. Don't be blinded by the fact that you have a full ride (especially when you still incur 50k of debt) -- you have numerous sensible options here.

1) That math is solid. You must be miscomprehending something.
2) Just bad spelling everywhere.

The arithmetic is right -- the probability calculations (and the assumptions that they rely upon) are wrong. The issue should be whether he'd rather be median owing 160k+ interest at NYU and more likely than not getting a biglaw job, or median at UT owing 50K+interest (which has a significant chance of leading to mid or shitlaw, and thus much less potential for the in-house/business moves the OP wants to make later).

Edit: Even better, median at Duke/UVA owing 100-120K in debt, with a much better shot of biglaw/a job than median at UT with only 50Kish less debt to service.

You're not even taking into account what the OP wants to do career-wise.

Median = 50%

I already said that based on the information given there's a 85% chance OP would be making the right decision by going to UT.

If the OP lands in between 1-35% at UT= OP gets the job he wants
If OP lands between 51%(below median)-bottom of class at UT = OP ends up doing something he doesn't want to do with 40k debt
If OP lands between 51%(below median)-bottom of class at NYU/UVA/DUKE = OP ends up doing something he doesn't want to do with 160k/120k/105k debt respectively.

The only way OP loses out is if he happens to fall between 35%-50% at UT because he could have gotten the job he wants at one of the other three schools. If he ends up falling anywhere below median, he will end up doing something he doesn't want to do regardless of where he goes.

Now the disclaimer is this is all working on the assumption that what those Texas firms told the OP is accurate, which is obviously a huge assumption. Unfortunately firm hiring isn't an exact science, but based on the information we have at our disposal this is how the situation plays out for the OP.

[TrialLawyer16]

People go nuts over the words "full ride," but you're only talking about paying around $45k more for Duke than Texas, or $60k more for UVA. Living in Austin is still an expense. I think paying a little more at the other schools is worth it. I don't know why you would only want to go to a V5 firm in NYC and suspect that as you learn more about firm hiring and their strengths you may become open to a wider range of NYC firms, which UVA or Duke (or NYU obviously) will open up to you. None of those schools will close Texas doors and they will all open others.

Look at the poll. OP says his COA is 65k more for Duke than Texas, and 80k more for UVA than Texas before interest. I don't know if a lot of you have taken out loans before, but some of you guys need to understand that, LRAP aside, you do have to pay this money back at some point.

[Nicholasnickynic]

The scholarship is tuition and fees only. And in reference to the top firms in NYC, I don't want to be a career attorney. Many people in the field I eventually want to work have elite firms on their resume so I think it would help.

Yeah, I suppose it might help if you told us what your future plans are.

Ultimately, my goals are all business-related and bunch of maybe's. Maybe in-house at a large public company, maybe work at a startup. I have some interest in hedge funds, private equity, VC work. I guess the point is that I don't really know, but I'm sure I want to do transactional work. And the top transactional practices would give me the best exit options.

Well, on the one hand, having minimal debt would allow you to take more risks, so you wouldn't necessarily have to sell your soul to BigLaw for years to pay back the debt. On the other hand, as someone above has suggested, prestttige may be even more important outside of the legal field than within it, in which case UT might not be your best bet. Duke might be a nice mean in this regard, since they are giving you more money than anyone but UT and they have not only good law prestige but even better lay prestige.

I am not sure how familiar people outside of law are with law school rankings. A lot of people probably don't even know that NYU, UVA, and UT have good law schools, but I would suspect they know that Duke does.

Texas makes sense both financially & professionally.

P.S. Interesting that UCLA with $50,000 per year scholarship didn't make your final cut.

That's effectively full ride (out of state) at UCLA, no? Why would he take full ride at UCLA over full ride at Texas, given that they are essentially peer schools and he wants to work in Texas?

I think this is very true. Considering your level of indecisiveness, Duke is a VERY good option. Its the best combination of relatively cheap and prestiege. Duke definitly has more lay presteige than uva. USNWR has uva at like 20 something. Duke is like #8. ALso in terms of lay prestiege, UVA = Public, Duke =prviate.

I would think duke could help you outside law, while still giving you a big boost within law and not burying you in debt.

also, spelling errors all over the place- i dont care.

also, uva lay prestige is shit (relatively speaking). I'm from charlottesville va. I go to wake forest (its in the 40s in rankings). People from my hometown assume that I go to uva, or ask me why I didn't pick UVA over wake. I have yet to run into a non-law person that had ANY idea that UVA is a SIGNIFICANTLY better school than Wake Forest. And these are people that live in 30 or less minutes from UVa's campus. Hell, I had no idea UVA was anything special till I started to apply to law school.

[crumpetsandtea]

I have strong Texas ties and would like Biglaw after graduation. Unless I were to receive an offer from the super elite firms in NYC (Wachtell, Cravath, SullCrom, etc.), I would like to work in Texas.

From speaking with recruiters at Texas firms, the general grade guidelines for NYU, UVA, Duke are top 50% or 3.0-3.33 and for Texas it's about top 35% or 3.55. Is the 15% cushion worth the extra money considering I have strong ties?

-side note: I thought a 3.0 at NYU, UVA, Duke was below median?

EDIT: Ultimately, my goals after Biglaw are all business-related and bunch of maybe's. Maybe in-house at a large public company, maybe work at a startup. I have some interest in hedge funds, private equity, VC work. I guess the point is that I don't really know, but I'm sure I want to do transactional work. And the top transactional practices would give me the best exit options.

Given your career goals, Texas is for sure the way to go.

[quiver]

Whoa, lots of bad advice ITT IMO.

OP wants NYC biglaw first with TX biglaw as a backup plan. With strong ties in TX, OP can get back there just as easily from NYU, UVA, and Duke as s/he can from UT while the non-UT schools on OP's list give him/her a better shot at NYC biglaw and an extra chance at biglaw generally (top 50% instead of top 35%). The full ride is nice but the other options aren't so unreasonably priced as to make UT the easy choice; I actually think UT would be the worst option value-wise here considering OP's goals.

Other posters talked about what happens if OP changes his/her mind and wants to do gov/PI or something. NYU, UVA, and Duke all have much much better LRAPs than UT so I don't really see how that scenario makes UT a better option by itself. OP would not be "wallowing in debt" if s/he decides to go a different route. The point about prestige outside of the legal field (where OP is ultimately aiming) is also a good point made by some other posters.

I'd also urge OP to be more flexible with the NYC biglaw goals as timbs suggested. If OP truly wants to go transactional, then NYC is the mecca for that type of work, even at less "prestigious" biglaw firms.

I voted for Duke since it's the least expensive non-UT option (given the reasons above). Obviously these are all great options and OP can't really choose "incorrectly."

[09042014]

Whoa, lots of bad advice ITT IMO.

OP wants NYC biglaw first with TX biglaw as a backup plan. With strong ties in TX, OP can get back there just as easily from NYU, UVA, and Duke as s/he can from UT while the non-UT schools on OP's list give him/her a better shot at NYC biglaw and an extra chance at biglaw generally (top 50% instead of top 35%). The full ride is nice but the other options aren't so unreasonably priced as to make UT the easy choice; I actually think UT would be the worst option value-wise here considering OP's goals.

Other posters talked about what happens if OP changes his/her mind and wants to do gov/PI or something. NYU, UVA, and Duke all have much much better LRAPs than UT so I don't really see how that scenario makes UT a better option by itself. OP would not be "wallowing in debt" if s/he decides to go a different route. The point about prestige outside of the legal field (where OP is ultimately aiming) is also a good point made by some other posters.

I'd also urge OP to be more flexible with the NYC biglaw goals as timbs suggested. If OP truly wants to go transactional, then NYC is the mecca for that type of work, even at less "prestigious" biglaw firms.

I voted for Duke since it's the least expensive non-UT option (given the reasons above). Obviously these are all great options and OP can't really choose "incorrectly."

I only skimmed the posts after the OP, but he isn't saying he wants NYC biglaw and TX as a backup. He is saying Texas Big law, with the only exception being v5 in NYC.