Is Berkeley Worth Sticker? Forum

[IAFG]

Michigan won't really get you Chicago without ties, but the Chicago firms are definitely hiring from Mich. they had a bad year in Chicago but that's not the new normal or anything. Still, no one can bet solely on Chicago without believable ties. By the same token, someone with ties to their target market probably can go to any T14 and have a reasonable shot. Going to NU hasn't stood in the way of Philly natives.

I personally would hate to go back to an isolated college down, so I would keep the car and go to Berkeley. Remember that there are two years after the 1L lockdown. Having access to a real city with real culture and real grownups is nice.

[bilbobaggins]

You've agreed with me that it's a justifiable investment. Hence the, "of course it's worth sticker."

Whether or not someone should go to law school is a completely different and more nebulous question.

The latter is obviously an integral part of the question since we're talking about Berkeley Law School and not Berkeley School of Fine Arts.

Yes, and if one is going to go to law school, Berkeley at sticker is worth it. I'm not sure what you're finding so hard to understand.

[Rotor]

Bay Area is killer, but Berk is also really fucking expensive.

Can we just kill this conventional "wisdom"? Yes it is expensive, but not when compared to the rest of its peers.

Yale: $52,525 per year
Stanford: $49,179 per year
Harvard: $48,786 per year
Columbia: $52,902 per year
Chicago: $47,502 per year
NYU: $48,950 per year
Berkeley: $50,163 per year, Out-of-state: $54,370 per year (one year)
Penn: $50,718 per year
UVA: $44,600 per year, Out-of-state, full-time: $49,600 per year
Mich: $46,830 per year, Out-of-state, full-time: $49,740 per year
Duke: $49,617 per year
NW: $51,920 per year
GULC: $46,865 per year
Cornell: $53,150 per year

As Shaggier said, they are ALL f-ing expensive-- and Berkeley is less than Cornell (one of the ones Temp Saint was advocating). Yes-- there is COL to consider, but the school can't do anything about that.

A Virginia resident would have the greatest advantage staying in VA instead of coming to CA and paying OOS for the first year at Berkeley-- and over three years of tuition that comes to about $20K, a not-inconsiderable sum. But for me, living in Berkeley>living in C-ville+7K/year (and I like C-ville and my UVA friends).

Edit to add: I think Berkeley has this rep on TLS because it used to be an absolute steal of an education. Just because it is significantly more expensive than it was three years ago doesn't mean it's expensive relative to its peers today.

Edit 2 to correct attribution to Shaggier, (though it looks like "accord" would go to Bilbo as originally credited).

[woeisme]

I assume you've been through OCI, so probably have a better grasp on things than I do. I think I clarified in my next post that I'd assume the vast majority of people at Cornell bit heavy/exclusively NYC. I don't base this on the the MVP bit. At Michigan you have more diverse bidding with more people targeting West Coast and Midwest. We saw something similar to this with NW students' ability to nab Weil interviews for instance on much lower bids than Cornell kids. Someone might have a better chance through decreased competition. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

No, you're right about the upside of decreased competition, but I think you're overstating it. Cornell tends to have better placement in NYC, notwithstanding that a greater percentage of Cornell students choose NYC than do Michigan students. In the same way, Michigan tends to have better Chicago placement, notwithstanding that a greater percentage of Michigan students choose Chicago than do Cornell students. It all boils down to being peer schools with different regional emphases.

[IAFG]

I assume you've been through OCI, so probably have a better grasp on things than I do. I think I clarified in my next post that I'd assume the vast majority of people at Cornell bit heavy/exclusively NYC. I don't base this on the the MVP bit. At Michigan you have more diverse bidding with more people targeting West Coast and Midwest. We saw something similar to this with NW students' ability to nab Weil interviews for instance on much lower bids than Cornell kids. Someone might have a better chance through decreased competition. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me.

No, you're right about the upside of decreased competition, but I think you're overstating it. Cornell tends to have better placement in NYC, notwithstanding that a greater percentage of Cornell students choose NYC than do Michigan students. In the same way, Michigan tends to have better Chicago placement, notwithstanding that a greater percentage of Michigan students choose Chicago than do Cornell students. It all boils down to being peer schools with different regional emphases.

I am not sure what you mean by "better placement"? I tend to think of it in terms of class rank: from what I can tell, a certain class rank, like top 1/3, is going to land similar firms in NY from Michigan, Cornell, Northwestern and VIrginia. So there's no reason to take Cornell over Michigan for NY because of "better placement."

[bk1]

Yes, and if one is going to go to law school, Berkeley at sticker is worth it. I'm not sure what you're finding so hard to understand.

My problem is that the answer to the question is not yes or no, it's maybe. I mean on one hand it gives people of the best shot at legal employment outside of 3-6 other schools. But just because it is almost at the pinnacle of employability does not mean that it is worth having 250k+ debt at graduation for. Blackjack is the pinnacle of odds in the casino. That doesn't mean I should place a 6 figure bet on one hand of blackjack even though the odds are in my favor.

[rayiner]

The only people dumb enough to think that Chicago is a target market for Michigan are UMich's OCS.

Also, I doubt there's any real edge in NYC placement between Cornell and Michigan. If anything, I'd bet chances from Michigan are better.

I thought you were a decent poster, but you're quickly losing credibility. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this lapse in judgment, but the above is not right. Michigan and Cornell are certainly peers in the aggregate, but if you're focusing solely on NYC placement, no way Michigan is better. Taking Michigan could make sense based on personal preference or additional scholarship money, but head-to-head, Cornell wins.

Also, Michigan for Chicago was historically a good bet. Not so much anymore.

To be fair, historically Michigan for anywhere was a good bet. Firms wanted all the T14 kids they could get. It was in the recession when firms had to start picking amongst T14's that the local loyalties came into play.

That said, I think Michigan is a reasonable choice for Chicago these days. Kirkland, Sidley, etc, have increased their class sizes, and IIRC for C/O 2012 brought on a ton of Michigan folks.

[skers]

Bay Area is killer, but Berk is also really fucking expensive.

Can we just kill this conventional "wisdom"? Yes it is expensive, but not when compared to the rest of its peers.

Yale: $52,525 per year
Stanford: $49,179 per year
Harvard: $48,786 per year
Columbia: $52,902 per year
Chicago: $47,502 per year
NYU: $48,950 per year
Berkeley: $50,163 per year, Out-of-state: $54,370 per year (one year)
Penn: $50,718 per year
UVA: $44,600 per year, Out-of-state, full-time: $49,600 per year
Mich: $46,830 per year, Out-of-state, full-time: $49,740 per year
Duke: $49,617 per year
NW: $51,920 per year
GULC: $46,865 per year
Cornell: $53,150 per year

As Bilbo said, they are ALL f-ing expensive-- and Berkeley is less than Cornell (one of the ones Temp Saint was advocating). Yes-- there is COL to consider, but the school can't do anything about that.

A Virginia resident would have the greatest advantage staying in VA instead of coming to CA and paying OOS for the first year at Berkeley-- and over three years of tuition that comes to about $20K, a not-inconsiderable sum. But for me, living in Berkeley>living in C-ville+7K/year (and I like C-ville and my UVA friends).

Edit to add: I think Berkeley has this rep on TLS because it used to be an absolute steal of an education. Just because it is significantly more expensive than it was three years ago doesn't mean it's expensive relative to its peers today.

Who the fuck said it was Boalt's fault for COL? That's a retarded argument. I did underestimate COA at Cornell. My mistake. Difference looks like 5k a year (though that could be ameliorated by in-state 2L and 3L). 45k a year does help with that. Still a difference of ~25k a year between Michigan and Boalt in terms of COA, which is not an insignificant amount when you're adding 30k on top of that.

[Rotor]

Who the fuck said it was Boalt's fault for COL? That's a retarded argument. I did underestimate COA at Cornell. My mistake. Difference looks like 5k a year (though that could be ameliorated by in-state 2L and 3L). 45k a year does help with that. Still a difference of ~25k a year between Michigan and Boalt in terms of COA, which is not an insignificant amount when you're adding 30k on top of that.

My beef was with your original statement "Berkeley is fucking expensive" not the application to OP's original situation. If he has 30K from Michigan, that's a significant consideration. I happen to be with Bilbo in that 10K/year isn't enough to get me to Ann Arbor over Berkeley.

As for the statement about COL, I was only qualifying my post to be clear that tuition is just one factor-- and I don't have time to go collect the total COA for all the schools. But if you're going to bitch about Boalt being so expensive, I think it's appropriate to consider that in light of the element that the school can control.

[skers]

Who the fuck said it was Boalt's fault for COL? That's a retarded argument. I did underestimate COA at Cornell. My mistake. Difference looks like 5k a year (though that could be ameliorated by in-state 2L and 3L). 45k a year does help with that. Still a difference of ~25k a year between Michigan and Boalt in terms of COA, which is not an insignificant amount when you're adding 30k on top of that.

My beef was with your original statement "Berkeley is fucking expensive" not the application to OP's original situation. If he has 30K from Michigan, that's a significant consideration. I happen to be with Bilbo in that 10K/year isn't enough to get me to Ann Arbor over Berkeley.

As for the statement about COL, I was only qualifying my post to be clear that tuition is just one factor-- and I don't have time to go collect the total COA for all the schools. But if you're going to bitch about Boalt being so expensive, I think it's appropriate to consider that in light of the element that the school can control.

That seems like an asinine distinction to make. I don't care if they can't control it. COA is certainly a big deal is considering which school to attend. Berkeley is generally more expensive than it's peer group (especially UVA, Mich and Duke). 20-25k a year is 60-75K plus interest. Considering that I don't see the point of whiteknighting just because Berkeley can't control how much COL is.

[bk1]

20-25k a year is 60-75K plus interest.

Thanks math genius. I was having a hard time multiplying by 3.

[skers]

20-25k a year is 60-75K plus interest.

Thanks math genius. I was having a hard time multiplying by 3.

Who are you again?

[Bildungsroman]

Does Berkeley Law guarantee your tuition at matriculation or are you subject to yearly increases? Because I wouldn't want to tie myself to a law school that seems to think there's no ceiling on tuition.

[woeisme]

I am not sure what you mean by "better placement"? I tend to think of it in terms of class rank: from what I can tell, a certain class rank, like top 1/3, is going to land similar firms in NY from Michigan, Cornell, Northwestern and VIrginia. So there's no reason to take Cornell over Michigan for NY because of "better placement."

I agree that MVPBDCNG are, over all, peer schools. But what I was suggesting was that in recent years, it has certainly seemed that NY firms have dug deeper into Cornell's class than Michigan's (or Northwestern's for that matter). And Chicago firms have dug deeper into NU and Michigan, than Cornell.

This is based on personal anecdotal information and on the statistics I've seen posted around here, largely from OCIs in 2008-2011. I don't know many people who have attended UVA nor am I very familiar with its placement in NYC/Chicago.

To be fair, historically Michigan for anywhere was a good bet. Firms wanted all the T14 kids they could get. It was in the recession when firms had to start picking amongst T14's that the local loyalties came into play.

That said, I think Michigan is a reasonable choice for Chicago these days. Kirkland, Sidley, etc, have increased their class sizes, and IIRC for C/O 2012 brought on a ton of Michigan folks.

Agreed.

[soj]

I've heard conflicting stories about the difficulty of qualifying for in-state tuition for 2L and 3L at Berkeley. Even in-state is more expensive than OOS tuition at a lot of other schools, but the small discount would definitely be a factor in the decision--but only if you can count on getting it. What are the requirements to qualify? Do you have to stay in CA for 1L summer?

[Rotor]

Who the fuck said it was Boalt's fault for COL? That's a retarded argument. I did underestimate COA at Cornell. My mistake. Difference looks like 5k a year (though that could be ameliorated by in-state 2L and 3L). 45k a year does help with that. Still a difference of ~25k a year between Michigan and Boalt in terms of COA, which is not an insignificant amount when you're adding 30k on top of that.

My beef was with your original statement "Berkeley is fucking expensive" not the application to OP's original situation. If he has 30K from Michigan, that's a significant consideration. I happen to be with Bilbo in that 10K/year isn't enough to get me to Ann Arbor over Berkeley.

As for the statement about COL, I was only qualifying my post to be clear that tuition is just one factor-- and I don't have time to go collect the total COA for all the schools. But if you're going to bitch about Boalt being so expensive, I think it's appropriate to consider that in light of the element that the school can control.

That seems like an asinine distinction to make. I don't care if they can't control it. COA is certainly a big deal is considering which school to attend. Berkeley is generally more expensive than it's peer group (especially UVA, Mich and Duke). 20-25k a year is 60-75K plus interest. Considering that I don't see the point of whiteknighting just because Berkeley can't control how much COL is.

In my mind "sticker" is the tuition and I already said tuition is not the only consideration in choosing a law school.

[bk1]

I've heard conflicting stories about the difficulty of qualifying for in-state tuition for 2L and 3L at Berkeley. Even in-state is more expensive than OOS tuition at a lot of other schools, but the small discount would definitely be a factor in the decision--but only if you can count on getting it. What are the requirements to qualify? Do you have to stay in CA for 1L summer?

They say they question you if leave CA for the summer. (source: http://registrar.berkeley.edu/Default.a ... linfo.html)

[Rotor]

Does Berkeley Law guarantee your tuition at matriculation or are you subject to yearly increases? Because I wouldn't want to tie myself to a law school that seems to think there's no ceiling on tuition.

It is not guaranteed at matriculation. However, the steep increases in recent years have explicitly been to get the school up to the level of tuition at peer schools. Target was 10% below private peers, but they overshot. I would expect the future increases to be in line with the market. See Dean Edley Letter, Winter 2008, http://www.law.berkeley.edu/5153.htm (discussing the three year tuition-hike plan).

[soj]

Target was 10% below private peers, but they overshot.

The letter says tuition will plateau at 10% below the market average. That's great, but I don't see them hurrying to correct themselves to meet their "target."

Yeah, rising costs etc etc, but I think the recent increases are a serious concern, especially since they're greater than what the dean said it would be.

[skers]

Who the fuck said it was Boalt's fault for COL? That's a retarded argument. I did underestimate COA at Cornell. My mistake. Difference looks like 5k a year (though that could be ameliorated by in-state 2L and 3L). 45k a year does help with that. Still a difference of ~25k a year between Michigan and Boalt in terms of COA, which is not an insignificant amount when you're adding 30k on top of that.

My beef was with your original statement "Berkeley is fucking expensive" not the application to OP's original situation. If he has 30K from Michigan, that's a significant consideration. I happen to be with Bilbo in that 10K/year isn't enough to get me to Ann Arbor over Berkeley.

As for the statement about COL, I was only qualifying my post to be clear that tuition is just one factor-- and I don't have time to go collect the total COA for all the schools. But if you're going to bitch about Boalt being so expensive, I think it's appropriate to consider that in light of the element that the school can control.

That seems like an asinine distinction to make. I don't care if they can't control it. COA is certainly a big deal is considering which school to attend. Berkeley is generally more expensive than it's peer group (especially UVA, Mich and Duke). 20-25k a year is 60-75K plus interest. Considering that I don't see the point of whiteknighting just because Berkeley can't control how much COL is.

In my mind "sticker" is the tuition and I already said tuition is not the only consideration in choosing a law school.

We're operating on different terms. No worries.

[Rotor]

Target was 10% below private peers, but they overshot.

The letter says tuition will plateau at 10% below the market average. That's great, but I don't see them hurrying to correct themselves to meet their "target."

Yeah, rising costs etc etc, but I think the recent increases are a serious concern, especially since they're greater than what the dean said it would be.

This is part of the problem of having to work with the Regents. Things move slowly.

The point is, recent past percentage increases do not predict the future. The administration is smart enough to know that they cannot outstrip the market or quality admits will stop coming. In some respects, this thread is evidence that they are straddling that line.

I'm also somewhat encouraged by the news coming from Sacramento (recognition that higher-ed has taken all the cuts that it can handle) and it even looks like the state economy may be coming around.

[Bildungsroman]

Does Berkeley Law guarantee your tuition at matriculation or are you subject to yearly increases? Because I wouldn't want to tie myself to a law school that seems to think there's no ceiling on tuition.

It is not guaranteed at matriculation. However, the steep increases in recent years have explicitly been to get the school up to the level of tuition at peer schools. Target was 10% below private peers, but they overshot. I would expect the future increases to be in line with the market. See Dean Edley Letter, Winter 2008, http://www.law.berkeley.edu/5153.htm (discussing the three year tuition-hike plan).

If Berkeley has tried to peg their price to 10% below private peers then they have failed miserably.

Do you all know yet what 2012-2013 tuition will be?

[Rotor]

Does Berkeley Law guarantee your tuition at matriculation or are you subject to yearly increases? Because I wouldn't want to tie myself to a law school that seems to think there's no ceiling on tuition.

It is not guaranteed at matriculation. However, the steep increases in recent years have explicitly been to get the school up to the level of tuition at peer schools. Target was 10% below private peers, but they overshot. I would expect the future increases to be in line with the market. See Dean Edley Letter, Winter 2008, http://www.law.berkeley.edu/5153.htm (discussing the three year tuition-hike plan).

If Berkeley has tried to peg their price to 10% below private peers then they have failed miserably.

Do you all know yet what 2012-2013 tuition will be?

As a 3L, I have to admit to not looking out for this info-- but I don't recall seeing it (and it's not up on the FinAid web site.

[goodthings]

...

[Dany]

I voted yes. Do it.