Super Crazy Hard Decision! With Poll! Forum

[NDIrish2012]

Ok, so this decision is hard, but not "Super Crazy Hard", but I had to get your attention! With deadlines approaching I thought it would be helpful to get some input from the TLS community regarding my options. Firstly, here are my post-law school goals. I would very much like a clerkship (A3), and then I would like (rather, NEED) biglaw, preferably in NYC or Boston, but not totally committed to those markets- in other words I would like some portability. The only market that would draw me away from NYC or Boston (or somewhere else in New England) is Detroit, and that would be because I decide I'd want to go back to where my family is located. In other words, no Cali (or any other place) dreamin' for me. Its pretty much going to be NYC, Boston or Detroit. Ultimately, however, (and this is the rub) I would LOVE to transition into academia eventually (thus my emphasis on an A3 Clerkship).

Here are my options: Georgetown graduating with $145K of debt. Notre Dame graduating with $110K of debt. BU graduating with $173K of debt. I have 35K scholarships at both GULC and ND and 15K at BU. Scholarship amounts are PER YEAR.

I think it is clear that GULC is the best option of the three for biglaw in NYC, but what about Boston? Does BU give me a better shot at Boston than GULC does, and further does BU give me a better shot at Boston than GULC does for NYC...an interesting question I think? It seems to me ND can be eliminated quite easily- the only advantage I can see is it getting me back to the Detroit area, but it can't be better for that purpose than GULC.

Now here is the kicker- my desire for academia. I realize that academia is an extremely longshot from any of these. I am presently on the Waitlist at Columbia, NYU, Penn, Virginia, Michigan and Duke (dual degree). So here is my question: If I get off a waitlist, do I take one of these at sticker (or close to sticker), especially NYU which I'm really gunning for, over 35K at GULC?

OR, do I reapply early (even ed) next cycle? Its a tough call, because I'm a splitter (173, 3.5ish). This cycle I didn't get my apps in until after the new year, so that may have affected my decision at some of the MVP type schools. If I chose to reapply I would be gambling a lot of money at GULC for a mere chance at getting something like NYU next cycle. Is a bird in the hand really worth two in the bush?? Anyway, this has been long winded, but I think you get the picture. I would be very grateful for thoughts!! I'm stressing!

[bdole2]

Do you have undergrad debt? Your COA estimates seem high for your scholarships. Maybe I'm doing my math wrong. IMO GULC or reapply.

[NDIrish2012]

Yes, I have undergrad debt, but that is not included in the figures above. I used Georgetown's Beta calculator to figure the COA (which did strike me as high given the scholarship, but then COA is roughly 73K this coming year, with an estimated increase of 3.5% each year thereafter). Also, those figures account for accumulated interest through the duration of law school.

[bdole2]

hmm...how much undergrad debt we talking about then?

[NDIrish2012]

40K, ND is an expensive place haha

[rebexness]

[NDIrish2012]

I didn't apply until mid/late January.

[landla]

Regarding Georgetown in Boston, I know of some attorneys working in Boston who graduated from Georgetown. However, this is anecdotal, so... take it for what it is worth. I believe they had strong Boston ties. They are doing very well now, though!

[rad lulz]

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[NDIrish2012]

If you are srs about AIII clerkship -> biglaw -> academia you need to retake. Not hard at all.

In a perfect world, this is the easy choice. But I highly doubt I'd be able to do significantly better on the LSAT- definitely not significant enough to overcome my gpa for hys.

[rad lulz]

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[NDIrish2012]

If you are srs about AIII clerkship -> biglaw -> academia you need to retake. Not hard at all.

In a perfect world, this is the easy choice. But I highly doubt I'd be able to do significantly better on the LSAT- definitely not significant enough to overcome my gpa for hys.

What are your numbers?

Because I mean, yeah GULC offers a better shot at that, but the shot is so slim it's not even worth even considering.

I mean, you have to do really well at school, get biglaw, get AIII (not assured even with really good grades), publish shit people actually want to read, and then maybe, just maybe, you have a shot at academia.

You're absolutely right... academia is such a long shot that it almost isn't worth considering. I tend to think that if I'm good enough to actually pursue academia (which would obviously entail getting a clerkship- a feat in itself) GULC won't be what stops me. In other words, if a person has the talent, going to Georgetown won't necessarily stop them. Obviously having HYS on one's CV is a huge bonus though. But is it worth retaking (risking getting a worse score and sacrificing 35K at GULC) for a slim shot at HYS just so I can increase my chances at academia? I just don't think so...

[bernaldiaz]

If you are srs about AIII clerkship -> biglaw -> academia you need to retake. Not hard at all.

In a perfect world, this is the easy choice. But I highly doubt I'd be able to do significantly better on the LSAT- definitely not significant enough to overcome my gpa for hys.

What are your numbers?

Because I mean, yeah GULC offers a better shot at that, but the shot is so slim it's not even worth even considering.

I mean, you have to do really well at school, get biglaw, get AIII (not assured even with really good grades), publish shit people actually want to read, and then maybe, just maybe, you have a shot at academia.

This will help.

[NDIrish2012]

Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, my numbers are in my original post and also my profile... but 173 3.5

[bernaldiaz]

Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, my numbers are in my original post and also my profile... but 173 3.5

Oh yeah, sorry I missed that, I wouldn't retake then. I think you did almost as well as you could. A 176 won't make that much of a difference. With your GPA that scholly from G'town is a nice result. ND needs to be off the list. I'm a domer too (a junior, in Fisher) and I know you are probably attached to ND, but at almost the same cost as Georgetown it would be insane to stay here.

[bk1]

Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, my numbers are in my original post and also my profile... but 173 3.5

And you got 35k/year at GULC? I would run (not walk) to GULC.

A3/academia are highly unlikely and you can't get into a school that's going to make it more likely (you're not getting HYS with a 3.5). Go to GULC and hope. If you don't get A3 you still have a good shot at biglaw and a reasonable debtload. On top of that you've got a school that places well in NYC and will give you a decent shot at Boston too.

[NDIrish2012]

Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, my numbers are in my original post and also my profile... but 173 3.5

Oh yeah, sorry I missed that, I wouldn't retake then. I think you did almost as well as you could. A 176 won't make that much of a difference. With your GPA that scholly from G'town is a nice result. ND needs to be off the list. I'm a domer too (a junior, in Fisher) and I know you are probably attached to ND, but at almost the same cost as Georgetown it would be insane to stay here.

Yeah, I think you're right on all counts... it will be so hard to turn down ND, it was my dream undergrad haha. Nice to know there is going to be at least one domer going to HYS in two years (i.e. you). I was shocked to get that much from GULC.

[bernaldiaz]

Yeah, I think you're right on all counts... it will be so hard to turn down ND, it was my dream undergrad haha. Nice to know there is going to be at least one domer going to HYS in two years (i.e. you). I was shocked to get that much from GULC.

Take solace in the fact that we are going to blow at football next year. Aaron Lynch just said he is transferring out, Tee Sheppard left mid-semester, and our quarterbacks are all borderline retarded. Do you really want to have 7 years of shitty football? That would be a tough pill to swallow. Also, I can't fucking believe Aaron Lynch. Fuck.

[rad lulz]

.

[NDIrish2012]

Oh, I didn't see that. Yeah, my numbers are in my original post and also my profile... but 173 3.5

And you got 35k/year at GULC? I would run (not walk) to GULC.

A3/academia are highly unlikely and you can't get into a school that's going to make it more likely (you're not getting HYS with a 3.5). Go to GULC and hope. If you don't get A3 you still have a good shot at biglaw and a reasonable debtload. On top of that you've got a school that places well in NYC and will give you a decent shot at Boston too.

I think my main alternative, and the real reason why I would reapply, would be to snag NYU and MAYBE Columbia next cycle. Of course even if I did get in, I'm sure I'd be looking at sticker. Also, I'd be presenting a stronger app next cycle because my GPA will be just about 3.6 and I'll have a year w.e. of going in to law school if I wait a year.

So the question is, would NYU or Columbia (either of the waitlist this year or ed next cycle) be worth sticker over what GULC has given me, especially given my career goals?? I realize this is an oft debated topic here, and it is really a tough call in many cases.

[NDIrish2012]

Aaron Lynch is transferring? What. The. Fuck. I can't say I blame him, but damn.

[bk1]

I think my main alternative, and the real reason why I would reapply, would be to snag NYU and MAYBE Columbia next cycle. Of course even if I did get in, I'm sure I'd be looking at sticker. Of course I'd be presenting a stronger app next cycle because my GPA will be just about 3.6 and I'll have a year of going in to law school if I wait a year.

So the question is, would NYU or Columbia (either of the waitlist this year or ed next cycle) be worth sticker over what GULC has given me, especially given my career goals?? I realize this is an oft debated topic here, and it is really a tough call in many cases.

CLS/NYU will give you an advantage in biglaw, but any advantage they give you in A3/academia is not small enough to justify paying 105k since it's essentially marginal.

Whether CLS/NYU are worth 105k more for biglaw... I don't think so but people disagree. My reasoning is that there's an 80% chance you don't last past 5 years in biglaw. Going to CLS/NYU at sticker increases your chances at biglaw but creates a substantial risk that when you leave you will have significant loans left. You'll face an issue paying that off even if you move to a 100k/year job since your after-tax salary will be under 70k. I'll grant that it's probably a close call but I definitely land on the GULC side of things.

[NDIrish2012]

^ Thanks, I think this is a good point. Is a 10-15% increase in odds of landing NYC biglaw worth $105K? Yes, if you can guarantee that you'll stick it out in biglaw, but the odds are overwhelmingly against you. The problem is that if you miss the biglaw boat at GULC 150K in debt might as well be a million dollars (at least it feels that way haha). For biglaw at GULC you basically need to be top 30%- and who can guess before ever stepping foot in a law classroom whether you'll be able to do that? Not me.

[bk1]

^ Thanks, I think this is a good point. Is a 10-15% increase in odds of landing NYC biglaw worth $105K? Yes, if you can guarantee that you'll stick it out in biglaw, but the odds are overwhelmingly against you. The problem is that if you miss the biglaw boat at GULC 150K in debt might as well be a million dollars (at least it feels that way haha). For biglaw at GULC you basically need to be top 30%- and who can guess before ever stepping foot in a law classroom whether you'll be able to do that? Not me.

I think 30% is too pessimistic a view of GULC.

My thoughts on GULC and biglaw from another thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 6#p5337406

[NDIrish2012]

OH, I should also mention that I'm still waiting on a decision from Cornell. Should know next week sometime.