Stanford or Chicago ($$$) Forum

[mmkitkat]

Sorry to add another one of these to the pile, but I was accepted at Stanford today and it's kind of thrown my decision making process into chaos.

Here are the relevant facts: I'm originally from California, but I'm living in the Midwest. I'm not entirely sure where I'd like to end up after law school (although I am leaning toward California somewhat), and I'm thinking about Public Interest or possibly academia. I definitely want to do a clerkship. My SO will still be in school near Chicago and the great majority of my family and friends live in the Midwest as well.

I was offered a substantial scholarship at Chicago and I probably won't qualify for a ton of need based aid, so Stanford will be substantially more expensive (which, for me, means tons of loans).

I like both campuses, so I guess my main question would be: is there any reason other than prestige whoring to attend Stanford over Chicago?

Thanks in advance for any responses!

[Borg]

Chicago. If it were somewhere like MVPB or lower giving you money then it would be a tougher problem, but the difference in placement between HYS and CCN for most of the things you will want to do is so insignificant that I think it would be somewhat crazy to pay full freight at Stanford if you're sort of indifferent between the two.

I won't go so far as to say the two are identical. Chicago has slipped since its glory days. It isn't the powerhouse it once was, and it's easier to get into than it might have been back in the '70s. However, I think the school really fights to maintain its reputation as being a place for future academics and probably has a lot of support mechanisms for students who are pursuing that career path. You would have to do very well at either school to break into the teaching market, and I would imagine that the top at Chicago probably has the same opportunities as the top at Stanford when it comes to teaching. Also, there are a lot of professors out there who went to Chicago and the network might reduce the placement gap somewhat.

[Mal Reynolds]

and I'm thinking about Public Interest or possibly academia. I definitely want to do a clerkship.

I would recommend Stanford for the above. You have a better shot at academia and a clerkship from there. Fortunately for you Chicago's gives you non-zero chances at all of these too. I think for you it will have to be a personal choice. If you decide to be closer to your SO I don't think you will ever regret your decision.

[quiver]

and I'm thinking about Public Interest or possibly academia. I definitely want to do a clerkship.

I would recommend Stanford for the above. You have a better shot at academia and a clerkship from there. Fortunately for you Chicago's gives you non-zero chances at all of these too. I think for you it will have to be a personal choice. If you decide to be closer to your SO I don't think you will ever regret your decision.

Yeah I agree with this. Bear in mind that clerkship/academia is one of the few legit reasons to take YSH over CCN with money. Plus you said you were leaning toward practicing in CA anyway. I'd say Stanford with these career goals but you'd absolutely be reasonable choosing Chicago too.

[09042014]

What does $$$ mean. How much we talking.

[juliachild-ish]

I think Stanford is the correct choice here, for your stated interests (and because I go to Stanford and am therefore biased in favor of it). Stanford gives you a far better chance at clerkships, academia, and public interest jobs, all of which you're interested in. Plus you want to be in California after graduation, and the Stanford network in California is just incredible--that name in California opens an unbelievable number of doors.

Here's the thing, too--if you want to do public interest, Stanford's LRAP is generous and flexible, so you may not end up actually paying any/most of those loans back at all. (That's my plan as well.) If you're not going to actually have to pay your loans, then why should money be much of an object? If you wanted BigLaw I might have different advice.

I know the proximity to your SO and family is an important factor--but think about the great opportunities you might be giving up. You won't go wrong either way, but I think you'll wonder at the opportunities you might have had if you go to Chicago, especially if you don't end up at the top of the class (which you likely won't).

[CanadianWolf]

Chicago may be the better choice in your situation as detailed above. You can get a prestigious clerkship from Chicago as well as from Stanford.

[hung jury]

I think Stanford is the correct choice here, for your stated interests (and because I go to Stanford and am therefore biased in favor of it). Stanford gives you a far better chance at clerkships, academia, and public interest jobs, all of which you're interested in. Plus you want to be in California after graduation, and the Stanford network in California is just incredible--that name in California opens an unbelievable number of doors.

Here's the thing, too--if you want to do public interest, Stanford's LRAP is generous and flexible, so you may not end up actually paying any/most of those loans back at all. (That's my plan as well.) If you're not going to actually have to pay your loans, then why should money be much of an object? If you wanted BigLaw I might have different advice.

I know the proximity to your SO and family is an important factor--but think about the great opportunities you might be giving up. You won't go wrong either way, but I think you'll wonder at the opportunities you might have had if you go to Chicago, especially if you don't end up at the top of the class (which you likely won't).

Also, Chicago's LRAP relies on IBR, which sucks (though I'd check the calculations, but the main point here is you can go in and out of LRAP at Stanford). You won't have a ton of loans but you will a fair amount so if you really want PI you'll likely be getting the money back on the backend.

But there is no wrong choice here, Chicago's a great school and debt is terrible even with LRAP. I'd wait to see your offer before thinkng about it too much.

[JasonR]

LSN says $170,000 at Chicago.

I voted for Chicago. The superiority of your chances out of Stanford for the things you want has been overstated. Chicago places extremely well in clerkships and academia, and PI is very doable--it's just that not a lot of people at Chicago have traditionally done it. That's changing, though, because Chicago's new LRAP is awesome.

On the other hand, Stanford is a hell of a nice choice, too. If you really want to do PI for the long term, the LRAP cuts down on the importance of the grant money difference by a lot. Then again, neither LRAP covers legal academia, so if you were hoping/able to move into that in just a few years after graduating (though you shouldn't count on this as an option), Chicago is the clear way to go due to debt considerations. And, honestly, even with the reassurance of the LRAPs, it would be pretty amazing to graduate from Chicago with debt only for cost of living.

I don't think anyone will deny that, all else being equal, quality of life at Stanford is higher, with no grades and the weather and such. But not all else is equal for you, since your SO is near Chicago and your friends and family would be much closer. Those are obviously personal considerations that are tough for any of us to weigh.

Tough choice, but there's not really a terribly wrong answer, so that's pretty nice. Congrats!

[fltanglab]

Did you like both campuses including the students? I don't know, just something to think about.

[Flash]

I would pick Stanford because then you wouldn't have to deal with the massive inferiority complex that is Chicago.

[Emma.]

Don't underestimate the value of the extra faculty love that comes along with the Rubenstein when it comes to clerkship apps and academia matters.

Stanford is an amazing school but there's no way I could turn down the opportunity to graduate completely debt free.

[Elston Gunn]

I turned down a Ruby to pay sticker at YHS for a number of reasons, but I still think I'd vote UChi. If you're serious about your SO, either being indefinitely long distance or asking her to move to California would suck. It's already a close call, even for someone who wants clerkships, academia and PI, but I think the SO clinches it.

[PMan99]

For what its worth, Stanford's clerkship #'s took a pretty decent hit from '10 --> '11, but they're still much better than Chicago's...

[southwick]

I'm not sure the above is true. Stanford's published data actually show a considerable jump in clerkship placement from '10 to '11, particularly among alumni.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/ ... clerkships

[PMan99]

I'm not sure the above is true. Stanford's published data actually show a considerable jump in clerkship placement from '10 to '11, particularly among alumni.

http://www.law.stanford.edu/experience/ ... clerkships

*Only among alumni

For graduates AIII Clerkships went from 29% to 23%

[southwick]

Good catch. Fairly, though, the jump in alumni clerkships was very significant.

[mmkitkat]

Thanks everyone for your responses. My SO and I actually just got engaged, so this has kind of shifted my decision some in favor of Chicago.

I'm still going to go to ASW at Stanford and see how I feel about since the fiance (still crazy to see that written out) is willing to relocate if I'm dying to go to Stanford. Thanks again for all your help!

[Elston Gunn]

Thanks everyone for your responses. My SO and I actually just got engaged, so this has kind of shifted my decision some in favor of Chicago.

Congrats!