Why do people attend schools like BLS/Cardozo/SH, etc? Forum

[flem]

Seriously, these schools are so expensive and in the most saturated legal market in the country. You have like, a 10% shot a BigLaw out of these places. According to the NYT there were 2100 entry level jobs in NY for 9700 new bar admittees. You have a 20% chance of landing full time employment. How many of those 2100 jobs are snagged up by T14 grads? How many are doc review jobs?

Do people want to break into NY/LA/Chicago/DC so badly that they'll roll the dice and take out 150K+ to go to BLS?

Am I missing something here? For all of the hate TTT and TTTT schools get (often rightfully so), some of them can be a wise investment (South Carolina, Arkansas, etc)

Obviously none of this applies if you have a huge (read: full) scholarship or 6 figure+ employment lined up afterwards. If neither, I just don't understand why anyone would want to go to any of these schools below Fordham in that market.

Seton Hall seems to get shit on a ton (absolutely rightfully so), and so does BLS. But many get a free pass or are even somewhat respected.

I'm just picking on NY because the lawyer surplus is so huge. NY, CA, FL, IL, the same thing really applies. In these markets you do yourself a disservice by putting yourself that far down the pecking order.

I'm not trolling. Am I right or am I missing something? Please explain this to me.

[Tom Joad]

Those aren't even the worst schools in the NYC area.

[t14fanboy]

Why are you assuming everyone makes wise choices?

[Mike12188]

Seriously, these schools are so expensive and in the most saturated legal market in the country. You have like, a 10% shot a BigLaw out of these places. According to the NYT there were 2100 entry level jobs in NY for 9700 new bar admittees. You have a 20% chance of landing full time employment. How many of those 2100 jobs are snagged up by T14 grads? How many are doc review jobs?

Do people want to break into NY/LA/Chicago/DC so badly that they'll roll the dice and take out 150K+ to go to BLS?

Am I missing something here? For all of the hate TTT and TTTT schools get (often rightfully so), some of them can be a wise investment (South Carolina, Arkansas, etc)

Obviously none of this applies if you have a huge (read: full) scholarship or 6 figure+ employment lined up afterwards. If neither, I just don't understand why anyone would want to go to any of these schools below Fordham in that market.

Seton Hall seems to get shit on a ton (absolutely rightfully so), and so does BLS. But many get a free pass or are even somewhat respected.

I'm just picking on NY because the lawyer surplus is so huge. NY, CA, FL, IL, the same thing really applies. In these markets you do yourself a disservice by putting yourself that far down the pecking order.

I'm not trolling. Am I right or am I missing something? Please explain this to me.

Fordham lol

[t14fanboy]

Seriously, these schools are so expensive and in the most saturated legal market in the country. You have like, a 10% shot a BigLaw out of these places. According to the NYT there were 2100 entry level jobs in NY for 9700 new bar admittees. You have a 20% chance of landing full time employment. How many of those 2100 jobs are snagged up by T14 grads? How many are doc review jobs?

Do people want to break into NY/LA/Chicago/DC so badly that they'll roll the dice and take out 150K+ to go to BLS?

Am I missing something here? For all of the hate TTT and TTTT schools get (often rightfully so), some of them can be a wise investment (South Carolina, Arkansas, etc)

Obviously none of this applies if you have a huge (read: full) scholarship or 6 figure+ employment lined up afterwards. If neither, I just don't understand why anyone would want to go to any of these schools below Fordham in that market.

Seton Hall seems to get shit on a ton (absolutely rightfully so), and so does BLS. But many get a free pass or are even somewhat respected.

I'm just picking on NY because the lawyer surplus is so huge. NY, CA, FL, IL, the same thing really applies. In these markets you do yourself a disservice by putting yourself that far down the pecking order.

I'm not trolling. Am I right or am I missing something? Please explain this to me.

Fordham lol

I fail to see what's so funny.

[emptyflare]

I would imagine some have guaranteed jobs after graduation (e.g., mom/pop business they will help with), some will have parents who want their kids to go to law schools and will pay for the education themselves (thus the students don't think of the risk), some want to work public interest and are dedicated towards it, etc. Others, though, are probably ignorant of the legal market reality or in denial of their statistical chances of finding worthwhile employment.

Knowing the breakdown would be interesting.

[Mike12188]

Seriously, these schools are so expensive and in the most saturated legal market in the country. You have like, a 10% shot a BigLaw out of these places. According to the NYT there were 2100 entry level jobs in NY for 9700 new bar admittees. You have a 20% chance of landing full time employment. How many of those 2100 jobs are snagged up by T14 grads? How many are doc review jobs?

Do people want to break into NY/LA/Chicago/DC so badly that they'll roll the dice and take out 150K+ to go to BLS?

Am I missing something here? For all of the hate TTT and TTTT schools get (often rightfully so), some of them can be a wise investment (South Carolina, Arkansas, etc)

Obviously none of this applies if you have a huge (read: full) scholarship or 6 figure+ employment lined up afterwards. If neither, I just don't understand why anyone would want to go to any of these schools below Fordham in that market.

Seton Hall seems to get shit on a ton (absolutely rightfully so), and so does BLS. But many get a free pass or are even somewhat respected.

I'm just picking on NY because the lawyer surplus is so huge. NY, CA, FL, IL, the same thing really applies. In these markets you do yourself a disservice by putting yourself that far down the pecking order.

I'm not trolling. Am I right or am I missing something? Please explain this to me.

Fordham lol

I fail to see what's so funny.

Going to Fordham without a "huge scholarship" seems to be a good idea for OP. I don't understand how you can start a thread ripping on these NYC schools and think that going to Fordham without a significant scholarship is a good idea. Unless I'm just assuming too much and he doesn't think Fordham at sticker or close to is a good idea.

[flem]

I fail to see what's so funny.

Going to Fordham without a "huge scholarship" seems to be a good idea for OP. I don't understand how you can start a thread ripping on these NYC schools and think that going to Fordham without a significant scholarship is a good idea. Unless I'm just assuming too much and he doesn't think Fordham at sticker or close to is a good idea.

Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane. It just seems like attending anything BELOW Fordham in general is suicide.

[ahnhub]

Well here's the thing--do you basically think everyone who goes to BLS and doesn't get Biglaw is totally boned? I mean, I don't. I wouldn't go to BLS but I still don't think 90% of BLS graduates ruin their lives.

[flem]

Well here's the thing--do you basically think everyone who goes to BLS and doesn't get Biglaw is totally boned? I mean, I don't. I wouldn't go to BLS but I still don't think 90% of BLS graduates ruin their lives.

Thats totally dependent on your debt to income ratio. If you paid sticker + COL on loans at BLS you're roughly 200k in the hole. If youre paying back 200k on 60k starting salary living in NYC I'd say you're pretty boned. I'd also say there's a good chance the bottom third ends up unemployed or never finds work as a lawyer.

[t14fanboy]

Well here's the thing--do you basically think everyone who goes to BLS and doesn't get Biglaw is totally boned? I mean, I don't. I wouldn't go to BLS but I still don't think 90% of BLS graduates ruin their lives.

[ahnhub]

Well here's the thing--do you basically think everyone who goes to BLS and doesn't get Biglaw is totally boned? I mean, I don't. I wouldn't go to BLS but I still don't think 90% of BLS graduates ruin their lives.

Thats totally dependent on your debt to income ratio. If you paid sticker + COL on loans at BLS you're roughly 200k in the hole. If youre paying back 200k on 60k starting salary living in NYC I'd say you're pretty boned. I'd also say there's a good chance the bottom third ends up unemployed or never finds work as a lawyer.

Well, if 35% of Fordham and 75% of NYU get Biglaw (or something equivalent--prestigious PI paid for with LRAP, clerkship, etc...), and you think that's basically it when it comes to "outcomes I can live with after taking out 200k+ in loans," then I would argue that basically makes going to law school anywhere kind of a crazy decision.

Look, I'm not trying to white knight Brooklyn Law School or anything. There are WAY too many law schools and it's a shame. But if everyone that goes there is, either consciously or unconsciously, attempting to win a 10% Biglaw lottery ticket with the other option being total ruin, that speaks volumes to the entire endeavor--and both of us are probably making a mistake right now.

[rwhyAn]

You can become governor of NJ. OP, why do you even care?

[dingbat]

Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane.

or a reasonable, but risky gamble. There's decent biglaw placement (top 1/3 will get you an interview) and enough opportunity to earn (low) six figures for the next 1/3 or so.
Bottom third is fucked.
ergo - reasonable, but risky proposition

Dozo and Brooklyn should only be attended with a scholly, though. The other NY law schools should be avoided like the plague, even if free (I'll make an exception for CUNY)

[bk1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

[rad lulz]

m

[dingbat]

Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane.

or a reasonable, but risky gamble. There's decent biglaw placement (top 1/3 will get you an interview) and enough opportunity to earn (low) six figures for the next 1/3 or so.
Bottom third is fucked.
ergo - reasonable, but risky proposition

Dozo and Brooklyn should only be attended with a scholly, though. The other NY law schools should be avoided like the plague, even if free (I'll make an exception for CUNY)

Are you kidding me? I'd rather give up both my pinkie than attend Fordham at sticker.

I'd rather give up my pinkie than matriculate at your school (but for a very different reason)

[t14fanboy]

Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane.

or a reasonable, but risky gamble. There's decent biglaw placement (top 1/3 will get you an interview) and enough opportunity to earn (low) six figures for the next 1/3 or so.
Bottom third is fucked.
ergo - reasonable, but risky proposition

Dozo and Brooklyn should only be attended with a scholly, though. The other NY law schools should be avoided like the plague, even if free (I'll make an exception for CUNY)

Are you kidding me? I'd rather give up both my pinkie than attend Fordham at sticker.

I'd rather give up my pinkie than matriculate at your school (but for a very different reason)

--ImageRemoved--

[bk1]

Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane.

or a reasonable, but risky gamble. There's decent biglaw placement (top 1/3 will get you an interview) and enough opportunity to earn (low) six figures for the next 1/3 or so.
Bottom third is fucked.
ergo - reasonable, but risky proposition

This seems like a serious overestimation of Fordham's placement considering that schools much better than Fordham have around 1/4 of their class as unemployed/underemployed (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181723).

[moneybagsphd]

Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane.

or a reasonable, but risky gamble. There's decent biglaw placement (top 1/3 will get you an interview) and enough opportunity to earn (low) six figures for the next 1/3 or so.
Bottom third is fucked.
ergo - reasonable, but risky proposition

Dozo and Brooklyn should only be attended with a scholly, though. The other NY law schools should be avoided like the plague, even if free (I'll make an exception for CUNY)

Are you kidding me? I'd rather give up both my pinkie than attend Fordham at sticker.

I'd rather give up my pinkie than matriculate at your school (but for a very different reason)

Vandy>Fordham all day erry day.

[dingbat]

Oh not at all. Fordham at sticker is insane.

or a reasonable, but risky gamble. There's decent biglaw placement (top 1/3 will get you an interview) and enough opportunity to earn (low) six figures for the next 1/3 or so.
Bottom third is fucked.
ergo - reasonable, but risky proposition

This seems like a serious overestimation of Fordham's placement considering that schools much better than Fordham have around 1/4 of their class as unemployed/underemployed (http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=181723).

That includes those with positions created by the school, which for simplicity's sake I'll concede (there's a separate thread arguing the merits thereof, but I'll not enter that discussion)
I did say the bottom 1/3rd is fucked.

It's been a while since I saw the salary data, but I will say with confidence that half the class earns over 6 figures. (I believe 2010 had 44% earning $145k or more)
Once you include clerkships and self-selecting into PI (or other), it's safe to say that, rougly speaking, 1/3rd get good jobs, 1/3rd get decent jobs, 1/3rd get no/low jobs.

[dingbat]

Vandy>Fordham all day erry day.

I wouldn't go with a full scholly.
(however, I will concede that Vandy is a better school - but for me personally, it is irrelevant)

[moneybagsphd]

Vandy>Fordham all day erry day.

I wouldn't go with a full scholly.
(however, I will concede that Vandy is a better school - but for me personally, it is irrelevant)

Better school + free sounds pretty relevant to me.

[MrPapagiorgio]

Vandy>Fordham all day erry day.

I wouldn't go with a full scholly.
(however, I will concede that Vandy is a better school - but for me personally, it is irrelevant)

Better school + free sounds pretty relevant to me.

While I agree, TBF, other factors could play into it (like location).

[bk1]

It's been a while since I saw the salary data, but I will say with confidence that half the class earns over 6 figures. (I believe 2010 had 44% earning $145k or more)
Once you include clerkships and self-selecting into PI (or other), it's safe to say that, rougly speaking, 1/3rd get good jobs, 1/3rd get decent jobs, 1/3rd get no/low jobs.

You really think class of 2010 data is that applicable to people going to law school now?