Minnesota $$$ vs. Notre Dame $$ vs. Cornell Forum

[lawschool?s]

I heard back from some schools and now have some new top choices I wanted incite on. While I am from Seattle and was accepted to UW with no scholarship, I am interested in minimizing debt. I would like to end up in the Northeast or West Coast, but out of anywhere in the Midwest Chicago and Minneapolis would be the only places I would ever consider (luckly ND and U of M's markets).

Here are the options:

Minnesota:
+Full Tution Scholarship with 2.5 gpa stipulation
+Minneapolis seems similar to Seattle (never been there)
+Minimizing debt is pretty significant
+Prefer city to rural
-Not a big fan of Midwest (would eventually like to come West)
-Not a national school

Notre Dame:
+$25,000 per year with good academic standing stipulation
+Some minimizing of debt (probably six figure debt still)
+"more" of a national reach than Minnesota (name brand)
+Love the Football Team
+Large Alumni Base in the West Coast
-South Bend seemed like a crap hole

Cornell:
+National Reach (t14)
+NYC as the home market is pretty awesome
+Best Job Prospects (Not particularly Biglaw oriented, I am more laid back and prefer a 9-5 job that I don't take home compared to a $160,000 paycheck)
-Sticker (HUGE debt)
-Ithaca was not horrible, but does seem kind of boring

[Doorkeeper]

Unless Cornell has a great LRAP (which I don't believe it does), it sounds like Minnesota is the best option here. Cornell places well in NYC biglaw, but aside from that it doesn't do much else well...especially not to take it on at sticker.

Did you apply to Washington, BU, or BC? Or any other schools in the Northeast?

[lawschool?s]

I got into the University of Washington with in-state tuition, but would like to move some place new. I realize law school is not a place to be used for relocation purposes, but I want to explore outside of the Northwest. These options are also higher ranked (not a ranking whore don't worry) and provide me options with less debt which is important to me.

I was also accepted to BU but with no money.

[barneytrouble]

I heard back from some schools and now have some new top choices I wanted incite on. While I am from Seattle and was accepted to UW with no scholarship, I am interested in minimizing debt. I would like to end up in the Northeast or West Coast, but out of anywhere in the Midwest Chicago and Minneapolis would be the only places I would ever consider (luckly ND and U of M's markets).

Here are the options:

Minnesota:
+Full Tution Scholarship with 2.5 gpa stipulation
+Minneapolis seems similar to Seattle (never been there)
+Minimizing debt is pretty significant
+Prefer city to rural
-Not a big fan of Midwest (would eventually like to come West)
-Not a national school

Notre Dame:
+$25,000 per year with good academic standing stipulation
+Some minimizing of debt (probably six figure debt still)
+"more" of a national reach than Minnesota (name brand)
+Love the Football Team
+Large Alumni Base in the West Coast
-South Bend seemed like a crap hole

Cornell:
+National Reach (t14)
+NYC as the home market is pretty awesome
+Best Job Prospects (Not particularly Biglaw oriented, I am more laid back and prefer a 9-5 job that I don't take home compared to a $160,000 paycheck)
-Sticker (HUGE debt)
-Ithaca was not horrible, but does seem kind of boring

By your last line, I take it you have actually visited ithaca? I think I would love it but when I told my dad I was thinking about cornell he scoffed and said go anywhere but ithaca. So it is one of those polarizing places. I wouldn't head there if you are just "meh" on it.

Cornell does not have national reach just because it is in the t14. There is no magical cutoff between cornell and a school like vanderbilt. Going there at sticker when you aren't sold on BOTH biglaw and NYC is epic stupid.

Notre Dame is an alright option but not when you have a minnesota full ride for comparison.

Read the daniel3.14 thread to make sure you weigh the pros as well as the cons, but I think minnesota is your best bet by a long shot here.

[lawschool?s]

If I attended Cornell I probably would shoot for NYC Biglaw.

However, if I attended U of M or ND I would love the opportunity to join JAG (I realize highly competitive) or else I would like to end up back on the West Coast.

Is it a bad idea to attend Minnesota on a full ride when trying to end up in the West Coast? I feel like there is no risk involved. Its a "free" (COL obviously cost something) top notch education and the worst that happens is I work at starbucks like everyone else with practically no debt.

[woeisme]

If I attended Cornell I probably would shoot for NYC Biglaw.

However, if I attended U of M or ND I would love the opportunity to join JAG (I realize highly competitive) or else I would like to end up back on the West Coast.

Is it a bad idea to attend Minnesota on a full ride when trying to end up in the West Coast? I feel like there is no risk involved. Its a "free" (COL obviously cost something) top notch education and the worst that happens is I work at starbucks like everyone else with practically no debt.

If you're really okay with this outcome, then Minnesota definitely makes the most sense. But if you're going to law school for the best shot at a successful legalcareer (whether in private practice otherwise), Cornell is still your safest bet.

[woeisme]

Cornell does not have national reach just because it is in the t14. There is no magical cutoff between cornell and a school like vanderbilt. Going there at sticker when you aren't sold on BOTH biglaw and NYC is epic stupid.

This is not true. There are loan repayment opportunities available if you don't do biglaw. And many people self select to NYC, but Cornell still has national reach. There is still difficulty going places where you don't have ties,.. but you're by no means limited to NYC from Cornell the way you might be limited to the midwest from Minnesota or Notre Dame.

[ze2151]

i don't know if i'd call cornell your "safest bet." it's a bet, to be sure. you're betting 150,000 dollars that you don't have that you'll land on red and get biglaw. then you're assuming you'll tolerate the biglaw lifestyle enough to pay down that debt. all in one of the world's most expensive cities.

i'd go with minnesota as long as that stipulation is essentially immaterial (i.e. everyone does better than 2.5 an it's really just a "pass your classes" kind of stip).

[CanadianWolf]

Cornell would cost closer to $225,000 than $150,000 since it has the first or second highest tuition in the country.

OP: What is the total COA for the University of Washington ?

[woeisme]

i don't know if i'd call cornell your "safest bet." it's a bet, to be sure. you're betting 150,000 dollars that you don't have that you'll land on red and get biglaw. then you're assuming you'll tolerate the biglaw lifestyle enough to pay down that debt. all in one of the world's most expensive cities.

i'd go with minnesota as long as that stipulation is essentially immaterial (i.e. everyone does better than 2.5 an it's really just a "pass your classes" kind of stip).

I guess I meant "safest bet" in terms of landing a decent paying legal job. To be honest, though, OP will do fine with a full-ride from Minnesota. It really depends what his/her aspirations are. From the posts, it is sounding more like Minnesota is the best choice. When I attended Cornell I faced a similar decision to OP (i.e., full-ride at a T15-20 v. Cornell/Michigan with not much money)... so it's hard to approach the question without my own biases and reflections. I think you're right though that the Minnesota stipulation is essentially immaterial. What's the curve like at Minn?

[flcath]

Minnesota is the correct answer.

I'm a 2L at ND (who's done well: law review, and a summer gig at a 2ndary market firm), who was stuck between a 2/3 scholarship at ND, full-ride at Alabama, and sticker (basically) at Cornell.

I seriously regret not going to Alabama. And *my* scholarship stipulation there was top third. And the third school in *my* hypo is at least a real downgrade in reputation.

You'd be crazy to do anything else.

[KMaine]

I think that Minnesota is the best for your stated goals.

[ze2151]

listen to flcath. he's got the right idea. and i'll throw in my .02. i was down to emory with major bucks (only stipulation is don't fail out), uva with solid bucks, or harvard with no bucks. i picked emory.

i have never, not once, regretted my choice.

i should add that i've done pretty well here. but even if i had done terrible in law school, i'd much rather come out with no debt as opposed to 200,000 dollars.

[lawschool?s]

So the consensus is that Minnesota at a full ride is a better option than Cornell?

Even if I don't particularly want to end up in the Midwest? I would be fine working there for a few years and trying to lateral to the west coast, but I don't want to permanently end up in the Midwest.

The full ride is very appealing and I think I am slighly leaning towards it (although minnesota weather sounds horrendous), but its so hard to pass up the opportunities that Cornell offers even if it is a gamble.







For whoever asked about UW it would cost me something like 28k tuition a year and then I would still need to pay living expenses and since it is my undergrad already and while it may sound dumb I would like to attend some place new and make some new connections.

[flcath]

The full ride is very appealing and I think I am slighly leaning towards it (although minnesota weather sounds horrendous), but its so hard to pass up the opportunities that Cornell offers even if it is a gamble.

What are "the opportunities that Cornell offers," exactly? You should really flesh this out in your mind, and try to ignore the Ivy League mystique, if that's what this is about.

What Cornell offers is a marginally higher chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, which is worth noting. It will not--and I'm not trying to insult you here--hasten your judicial nomination in 25 years, cause your relatives to view you as more of a genius, or make your fellow associates look up to you as a leader. Under no rational computation is the amount of $$$ saved by going to Minnesota outweighed by the marginal increase in biglaw odds at Cornell.

[RobotGardener]

Cornell FTW

[KMaine]

The full ride is very appealing and I think I am slighly leaning towards it (although minnesota weather sounds horrendous), but its so hard to pass up the opportunities that Cornell offers even if it is a gamble.

What are "the opportunities that Cornell offers," exactly? You should really flesh this out in your mind, and try to ignore the Ivy League mystique, if that's what this is about.

What Cornell offers is a marginally higher chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, which is worth noting. It will not--and I'm not trying to insult you here--hasten your judicial nomination in 25 years, cause your relatives to view you as more of a genius, or make your fellow associates look up to you as a leader. Under no rational computation is the amount of $$$ saved by going to Minnesota outweighed by the marginal increase in biglaw odds at Cornell.

Again, though I go to Cornell, I think that OP should take the full ride at MN. I do not agree that the difference in NLJ 250 placement is marginal. Cornell has a much better reputation with employers. Also, OPs relatives would look at OP as more of a genius (but this doesn't matter).

[JasonR]

listen to flcath. he's got the right idea. and i'll throw in my .02. i was down to emory with major bucks (only stipulation is don't fail out), uva with solid bucks, or harvard with no bucks. i picked emory.

i have never, not once, regretted my choice.

i should add that i've done pretty well here. but even if i had done terrible in law school, i'd much rather come out with no debt as opposed to 200,000 dollars.

Again, stop lying, you horse's ass: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 9#p5347669.

[woeisme]

listen to flcath. he's got the right idea. and i'll throw in my .02. i was down to emory with major bucks (only stipulation is don't fail out), uva with solid bucks, or harvard with no bucks. i picked emory.

i have never, not once, regretted my choice.

i should add that i've done pretty well here. but even if i had done terrible in law school, i'd much rather come out with no debt as opposed to 200,000 dollars.

Again, stop lying, you horse's ass: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 9#p5347669.

Hahaha nice find! I knew emory (with less than full ride plus stipend) over T14 (let alone H) seemed weird!

[flcath]

The full ride is very appealing and I think I am slighly leaning towards it (although minnesota weather sounds horrendous), but its so hard to pass up the opportunities that Cornell offers even if it is a gamble.

What are "the opportunities that Cornell offers," exactly? You should really flesh this out in your mind, and try to ignore the Ivy League mystique, if that's what this is about.

What Cornell offers is a marginally higher chance of getting an NLJ 250 job, which is worth noting. It will not--and I'm not trying to insult you here--hasten your judicial nomination in 25 years, cause your relatives to view you as more of a genius, or make your fellow associates look up to you as a leader. Under no rational computation is the amount of $$$ saved by going to Minnesota outweighed by the marginal increase in biglaw odds at Cornell.

Again, though I go to Cornell, I think that OP should take the full ride at MN. I do not agree that the difference in NLJ 250 placement is marginal. Cornell has a much better reputation with employers. Also, OPs relatives would look at OP as more of a genius (but this doesn't matter).

I guess that depends on if OP has doctors in his family or not.

[TheZoid]

Not saying Cornell at sticker is necessarily the play, but marginally better nlj250 placement? Isn't it not even close between these two?

[RodneyBoonfield]

Two problems here:

(1) You don't want big law, thus you necessarily have to minimize debt
(2) You sound like you want W coast

MN is a good solution for (1) but not (2). Because of your career aspiration, I'm wondering why Davis/Hastings/UCLA & USC (with money) are not on this list.

[Aberzombie1892]

OP, you might as well remove Notre Dame from contention and compare MN to Cornell.

This is what you get (which strangely is a mirror image):

Cornell Pros
1. Much higher chance at getting a JD required job (full time)
2. Much higher chance at getting a medium/high paying job
Cornell Cons
1. Astronomically expensive

MN Pros
1. Extremely affordable
MN Cons
1. Much higher chance of not getting a JD required job (full time or not)
2. Much higher chance of not getting a medium/high paying job

OP, I would choose MN, as I don't like debt. However, someone else could easily choose Cornell.

Two problems here:

(1) You don't want big law, thus you necessarily have to minimize debt
(2) You sound like you want W coast

MN is a good solution for (1) but not (2). Because of your career aspiration, I'm wondering why Davis/Hastings/UCLA & USC (with money) are not on this list.

This. If you want CA, you should look at CA schools.

[Napt]

Cornell isn't worth $225k. Minnesota probably isn't worth going to even with a full-ride, especially with your lack of connections in the Midwest. Probably retake/reapply or don't go.

[woeisme]

So the consensus is that Minnesota at a full ride is a better option than Cornell?

Even if I don't particularly want to end up in the Midwest? I would be fine working there for a few years and trying to lateral to the west coast, but I don't want to permanently end up in the Midwest.

The full ride is very appealing and I think I am slighly leaning towards it (although minnesota weather sounds horrendous), but its so hard to pass up the opportunities that Cornell offers even if it is a gamble.

No, in this case I'd change my vote to Cornell. If you don't want to ultimately practice in Minnesota (or, to a lesser extent, the midwest in general), I think going to Minn over Cornell would be unwise, the difference in money notwithstanding.