NYU vs Berkeley vs Chicago vs Duke Forum

[hwsitgoing]

So.. I'm interested in public international law and probably want to work for the State Department or UN later on. Although, I could possibly see myself in academia later. I probably want to end up in Washington DC or somewhere on the East Coast. I'm not much of a city person but can deal with it if I need to and also don't care too much about night life since I'm more of a nerd than a partier.

I went to NYU's admitted student days and didn't really see myself fitting in there. I realized I wanted more of a campus feel. However, I was incredibly impressed by the variety of courses and programs available in international law in addition to all the connections the school has to employers.

I hear Chicago is an excellent school, on par with Columbia, which I was waitlisted at, but I also hear that their international law program isn't very strong and the quarter system sounds exhausting.

People have told me great things about Berkeley, but I'm worried I'll be isolated on the West Coast and will have a harder time finding a job back out east. I also wonder if Berkeley has as good of a reputation as Chicago.

In terms of Duke, I was admitted to the JD/LLM program in international law but not sure if the LLM is really that important since Duke's reputation isn't supposedly as strong as NYU's or Chicago's.

I would really appreciate any help or advice on this!! Thank you

[CanadianWolf]

You've done well with a 166/3.7. Based on the content of your post in this thread, Duke may be the best choice for you.

P.S. Ask Duke for scholarship money based on your acceptances to Chicago, NYU & Berkeley.

P.P.S. Have you calculated the total COA for each law school ?

[hwsitgoing]

Thanks! So you think Duke would be best based on my interests in international public law? What about the fact that their overall reputation isn't quite as strong?

Great idea about the scholarship money, I figured I'd have no chance bargaining with just acceptances, but I guess I should try. I suppose I figured I would just work in a big law firm for a year or two to pay off debts if need be.

[Samara]

From what I understand, none of these schools are going to give you a particular leg up for international law (except maybe NYU a little bit?), but of those Chicago has the strongest placement in academia.

Definitely negotiate for scholarship money from Duke though. You should be able to get a significant amount.

[CanadianWolf]

My answer--Duke--is likely to be the least popular among TLS posters because it is the lowest ranked of the four law schools. My recommendation was based on the info. shared in your initial post in this thread. For example, you are uncomfortable with NYU's setting & don't want to move out West for Berkeley & Chicago doesn't offer enough courses in your area of interest. Also, Duke is the most likely school to offer you scholarship money based on your 3 other acceptances to higher ranked schools while also offering a specialty degree that focuses on your area of interest & Duke offers a traditional college campus environment.

[CanadianWolf]

When negotiating with Duke for a scholarship, be prepared to have a second choice law school. This should enable you to negotiate with confidence, plus the other three choices are great alternatives. If feasible in terms of cost & time, try to visit all of your choices. Chicago doesn't really offer a traditional campus setting & Berkeley has a much different feel than your other choices, in my opinion.

Will you be able to complete both the JD & LLM degrees in three academic years at Duke ?

[Redamon1]

Berkeley grads get back on the East Coast just fine. The geographical distribution of B graduates displays a good amount of self selection towards staying in California. No one questions Stanford's ability to place East even though just as hefty a number of grads stay on the West Coast. And no one questions Columbia, NYU, Yale or Harvard's ability to place in CA, even though an overwhelming majority of students stay on the east coast. So yes, many students go to schools in regions in which they want to practice, but those students who want to practice elsewhere in the country usually do fine out of these schools with national reach.

OP I'm interested in similar subjects and career and am heading to B. I have heard of, met and worked with several students and grads focused on the UN or State Department who were able to land those jobs. I was also talking to a colleague at the office of the legal adviser at State who was telling me that Berkeley is one of the few campuses on which their office recruits (not sure about the others). They also consider Berkeley to be one of the elite schools for the competitive internships, externships and staff positions in their office. From what I see, B has good resources and profs when it comes to international law, including David Caron who's ASIL's president at the moment.

There's no question that NYU is excellent on these questions, and you may want to pick them or another school based on personal preference, but I just wanted to weigh in to say that I don't think concerns about Berkeley's quality of education/resources or portability of the degree are warranted.

[hwsitgoing]

Yes, I'm going to try to visit all of them. I was thinking about not going to Duke this weekend for admitted students days, but this forum is starting to change my mind. I'll have to read up on how to negotiate scholarships, I have no idea who to talk to about that.

Yes, I would complete the JD/ LLM in three years. However, I would have to start this June which would mean no time to rest or prepare for law school since I've committed to working at my current job until June. Does an LLM degree really have additonal value, however? I've heard from some people that unless you're going into academia it doesnt make much of a difference.

@ Samara which schools do you think are the best for public international law?

[craygar]

in terms of what you want to do, looks like Duke is the best bet, especially if they give you money.

In terms of reputation, it certainly does not have as good a reputation as Chicago or NYU, but it is still a T14, has national reach, and has name recognition as a great law school. In terms of the east coast, it has just as much reputation and better placement (admittedly because of some self-selection) as berkeley. Also, don't go to a school you can't see yourself at for 3 years, and if you dont like the NYU feel, then look elsewhere (but it is a great school).

If you are looking for academia, go to Chicago, otherwise, I'd say take the LLM/JD at Duke and try to get some $$$

[hwsitgoing]

Thanks Redamon1, yeah I've spoken to several people at State about my decision also. I havn't heard anything about where they recruit from. In fact, I thought they didn't really recruit for positions in the Office of the Legal Advisor since its so competitive. Of the people I spoke to at State, the more senior staff seemed most impressed by Chicago and the younger crowd by NYU and Berkeley.

[Redamon1]

FWIW another thing I considered in B's favor in my decision was the reputation of the university overall. IMO grads interested in PI and/or those that might work outside the US at some point should consider the fact that they will sometimes have to impress and try to be recruited by people that are not lawyers or not familiar with US law rankings. And I thought Berkeley was more widely known and respected in policy and international circles than other schools I was considering.

Good luck with your decision.

[Samara]

Yes, I'm going to try to visit all of them. I was thinking about not going to Duke this weekend for admitted students days, but this forum is starting to change my mind. I'll have to read up on how to negotiate scholarships, I have no idea who to talk to about that.

Yes, I would complete the JD/ LLM in three years. However, I would have to start this June which would mean no time to rest or prepare for law school since I've committed to working at my current job until June. Does an LLM degree really have additonal value, however? I've heard from some people that unless you're going into academia it doesnt make much of a difference.

@ Samara which schools do you think are the best for public international law?

I'm no expert on international law, but I've heard that both international law and academia largely follow the biglaw hierarchy, with YH being easily the strongest. NYU and Berkeley probably place above their rankings for int'l law, because of their PI focus. I haven't seen any hard data though. I have also heard that the LLM is fairly unimportant to non-academia, especially compared to things like language proficiency. The data I've seen shows that Chicago is definitely the best for academia, of your choices.

Unless your scholarship situation changes significantly, I think it comes down to fit and backup options. International law is extremely competitive, so if you don't get it, what is your backup plan? If it's academia, go to Chicago. If it's PI, go to Berkeley. If it's biglaw, go to Duke (assuming a significant scholarship). I left out NYU because it wasn't a good fit for you and the others are peer schools. All these schools are national and can get you back to the east coast.

Just my thoughts on the matter from what I've learned on TLS. I will gladly defer to those more knowledgeable on the subject.

[Tadatsune]

If you want public international law, which is a bit of a long shot, your best chance is going to be from NYU.

[Shaggier1]

People have told me great things about Berkeley, but I'm worried I'll be isolated on the West Coast and will have a harder time finding a job back out east.

The bolded should not be a concern. Berkeley truly has national reach.

If this was me the choice would be between Berkeley and NYU. At that point I would decided based on cost and personal fit.

[hwsitgoing]

If you want public international law, which is a bit of a long shot, your best chance is going to be from NYU.

Why do you say that? Strength of program and proximity to employers? I've sometimes heard that NYU is not as strong as Chicago outside of NYC.

I'm wondering where all the votes for Chicago are coming from? Thoughts anyone?

[hwsitgoing]

If this was me the choice would be between Berkeley and NYU. At that point I would decided based on cost and personal fit.

Thanks for the input! Why wouldn't you cosider Chicago, though? Do you think its weaker international law program rules it out?

[Tadatsune]

If you want public international law, which is a bit of a long shot, your best chance is going to be from NYU.

Why do you say that? Strength of program and proximity to employers?

Basically yes. I think NYU's commitment to PI and internationalism is real. I was impressed with the clinical program at NYU as well; many of the clinics were focused on international PI. Proximity to the UN seems like a bonus. Mind you, this is just going off of what I saw at ASD, so...

[Shaggier1]

Thanks for the input! Why wouldn't you cosider Chicago, though? Do you think its weaker international law program rules it out?

No problem. I wouldn't consider Chicago because I think you will have more public international law opportunities at NYU/Berkeley. Chicago is where I would go if I was interested in biglaw, academia or law and economics.

If I was interested in public international law I would do a JD/MA at Berkeley/NYU/HYS/Columbia (for the JD) and Fletcher/Woodrow Wilson/SIPA. A couple examples of folks I know of who have done this and had success:

http://www.arnoldporter.com/professiona ... ew&id=5300
http://www.wilmerhale.com/david_bowker/
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/php-program ... acID=14277

[skers]

Thanks for the input! Why wouldn't you cosider Chicago, though? Do you think its weaker international law program rules it out?

No problem. I wouldn't consider Chicago because I think you will have more public international law opportunities at NYU/Berkeley. Chicago is where I would go if I was interested in biglaw, academia or law and economics.

If I was interested in public international law I would do a JD/MA at Berkeley/NYU/HYS/Columbia (for the JD) and Fletcher/Woodrow Wilson/SIPA. A couple examples of folks I know of who have done this and had success:

http://www.arnoldporter.com/professiona ... ew&id=5300
http://www.wilmerhale.com/david_bowker/
http://www.law.berkeley.edu/php-program ... acID=14277

Your chances of working in public international law are ridiculously low, regardless of school. Go to the school that best gets you your backup (and in the case of academia backup backup).