Texas tech vs. south Texas college of law Forum

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

By the way re-take are go to tech on a better scholarship or UH/SMU with hopefully some money. Based on the kind of law you want to practice you may be better off saving money and going to tech though.

An SMU degree wouldn't be worth 50k more to me, but I know it would be worth that and more for many on this site.

[Mce252]

I'm a current South Texas student and I would advise not going to either as well. I'm #1 or #2 in my class and I have had decent opportunities, but most of the class does not. I'm transferring as well.

Tech is a marginally better "ranked" school but it is way the hell out in the middle of nowhere. You do not want to go to law school in Lubbock. For purely geographic regions and the fact that South Texas is in the Houston market, if you have to choose, go to STCL over Tech. At least you are able to network during the semester at South Texas. You can milk cows in Lubbock but that's not going to get you a job.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

All depends on what you want. If you want Suburban Law out in the sticks of texas including the surrounding bits of DFW or AUSTINTONIO then Tech would be better. South Texas is sorta Houston or bust, which is great if you want Houston and can't get into UH.

[Mce252]

All depends on what you want. If you want suburban law out in the sticks of texas including the surrounding bits of DFW or AUSTINTONIO then Tech would be better. South Texas is sorta Houston or bust, which is great if you want Houston and can't get into UH.

So basically if you want to work outside of the areas of where all decent employers locate themselves, go to Tech. The only reason someone should go to Tech over South Texas is for significant financial reasons. If you can do well at South Texas, you are much better off then someone in the same position at Tech.

And the Houston network for South Texas is much stronger than the Tech network is in any other area. Take your first job in Houston then it doesn't matter anymore. At least you have a decent shot at mid/biglaw in Houston if you're really high in your class.

[b.gump81]

So basically if you want to work outside of the areas of where all decent employers locate themselves, go to Tech.

Tech does well in DFW, and does better in every single market than stcl except for Houston

The only reason someone should go to Tech over South Texas is for significant financial reasons. If you can do well at South Texas, you are much better off then someone in the same position at Tech.

Simply not true. You yourself even just stated in an above post that most of your classmates don't have decent job opportunities. Since there are 400+ in a stcl class, that is at the very least 201 students SOL, with tons more debt. I however would say most of my classmates do have decent opportunities, and even if they don't, they at least aren't in as much debt

And the Houston network for South Texas is much stronger than the Tech network is in any other area. Take your first job in Houston then it doesn't matter anymore. At least you have a decent shot at mid/biglaw in Houston if you're really high in your class.

Again, I think this is a little off. Tech has strong alumni support in DFW and other major markets. And a student that is top 10-15% at tech will have better job prospects than a student in top 10-15% at stcl

I've seen in previous posts you went to law school wanting to be a prosecutor. What changed your mind? Why are you transferring? Why are you advocating for a school where most of your classmates don't have decent job opportunities?

[Mce252]

Tech does better in every market except for Houston is my whole point. At least South Texas has one major market where it has a decent level of respect. Most South Texas grads are centered in Houston as opposed to Tech grads being more scattered throughout the state.

My opinion is based on the fact that neither Tech nor South Texas are good schools. The only benefit is South Texas' location. HOWEVER, I did say that the only reason anyone should justify going to Tech is because it's cheaper.

I'm advocating South Texas because it's the best of two bad options. I think the reason why I'm transferring is pretty obvious. And being a prosecutor is still on the table, just not as my first job because of how much it limits your options when I really don't know that much about the legal world yet.

[b.gump81]

So just to get this straight, you are saying stcl is a better school because its graduates are centralized in Houston, even though tech is cheaper and doesn't leave most of its graduates without decent opportunities, unlike stcl? And you say at least stcl has "decent respect" in one market; well I'd say tech has "decent respect" for a significant portion of the state (and NM and some parts of OK), including DFW. Maybe I'm just tired from reading the ucc all night, but I'm not following your argument here, especially considering you are arguing for a school you are transferring out of and asking us to heed your opinion when you yourself even admit in the next breath that you "really don't know that much about the legal world yet."

[Mce252]

None of us know about the legal market in the context of career paths. I was referring to your question about career paths. You can argue that Tech has regional respect, but I don't buy it and I don't think you do either. Outside of the top 10% of the classes neither school has great job prospects. I'm not saying they don't find jobs. I'm saying options are limited. THE SCHOOLS ARE THE SAME IN TERMS OF QUALITY. MY POINT IS THAT SOUTH TEXAS HAS A GEOGRAPHIC ADVANTAGE. Tech has a financial advantage but that doesn't overcome the fact that it's in the middle of a giant field.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

2010 stats:

Tech had at least 11% of the class clear 60k, with 5.5% clear 83k.

71% found work as a full time attorney.

South Texas had 6% clear 81k with 3% clearing 130k.

58% found work as a full time attorney.

Looks like STSL leaves more people high and dry with no real job, but other than that seem "peer-like." Comes down to geography.

Thoughts:

1. Sorry to bring facts to a bullshit fight.
2. Both schools full time employed in a JD required field is comparable to most of the top 100, and is better (especially tech's) than much/most of the T2. Heck, even better than some T1s in bad markets (aka Cali, see Hastings).

[b.gump81]

You can argue that Tech has regional respect, but I don't buy it and I don't think you do either. Outside of the top 10% of the classes neither school has great job prospects. I'm not saying they don't find jobs. I'm saying options are limited.

Umm I do buy it, because I see it every day. And I'm not top 10% at tech and consider myself to have had great opportunities thus far, and I consider myself to be on track to have great job opportunities after graduation. I have a friend that is in bottom quartile of our class and still got two interviews for oci, and one resulted in a fly-out to dc for a second interview

THE SCHOOLS ARE THE SAME IN TERMS OF QUALITY. MY POINT IS THAT SOUTH TEXAS HAS A GEOGRAPHIC ADVANTAGE. Tech has a financial advantage but that doesn't overcome the fact that it's in the middle of a giant field.

We already went over this: stcl doesn't really have a location advantage. Sure they are located in a big market, but tech also places in big markets, while not being limited to only one. I'll say it again: if the op is dead-set on Houston and doesn't want to retake for UH, then stcl is the better choice. But if he/she is comfortable not being in Houston, then tech is clearly the better pick, because the employment prospects are better overall

As a side note, I'm curious to know where you're transferring. Pm me if you don't want to discuss here, if you don't mind

Edit: talked to the friend earlier today, and the DC interview wasn't from oci. It was through some program called "texans in dc" or something similar, and it was an interview with a major federal agency

[Mce252]

I'm glad you know some people that are getting jobs at Tech. Some people are getting jobs at South Texas too. That still doesn't mean that either school places well compared to UT/SMU/UH. We of course can find success stories. But as a whole the degrees are not that respected by attorneys who did not attend those schools (or professors that teach there). And the jobs many students are taking are not good legal jobs.

My guess is that Tech does not place as well in any big market as South Texas does in Houston.

I don't know where I'm transferring yet. I haven't finished the admissions cycle.

[b.gump81]

Did you even read what I wrote?

I'm glad you know some people that are getting jobs at Tech. Some people are getting jobs at South Texas too.

“But if he/she is comfortable not being in Houston, then tech is clearly the better pick, because the employment prospects are better overall” –B.Gump81 (1 post above your last)

“Looks like STSL leaves more people high and dry with no real job, but other than that seem "peer-like." ---Lord Randolph (2 posts above your last)

Youre right. I’m sure we could find success stories at any school, but that doesn’t change what has been said numerous times: a higher percentage of grads from tech get good law jobs than grads from stcl.

That still doesn't mean that either school places well compared to UT/SMU/UH.

please, just refer to the title of the thread.

We of course can find success stories. But as a whole the degrees are not that respected by attorneys who did not attend those schools (or professors that teach there). And the jobs many students are taking are not good legal jobs.

“And you say at least stcl has "decent respect" in one market; well I'd say tech has "decent respect" for a significant portion of the state (and NM and some parts of OK), including DFW.” ---B.Gump (4 posts above your last)

“I'm not top 10% at tech and consider myself to have had great opportunities thus far, and I consider myself to be on track to have great job opportunities after graduation. I have a friend that is in bottom quartile of our class and still got two interviews for oci” ---Me again (1 post above your last)

I guess it is your word against mine (unless you have some other way than employment data to show respect), but you even stated that most of your classmates don’t have decent opportunities, while I stated most of my classmates do. And I think the employment data speaks for itself to show that Tech does have “decent respect” in several markets. I used myself and my friend as just an example to illustrate the point I was making: that people lower in the class rank at Tech still may have decent opportunities, which you cannot say the same for stcl. Of course, my information from my classmates may not translate into actual employment after graduation, but in talking with the few recent graduates I know, not many haven't been able to my gainful legal employment (only one I know of that didn't get gainful legal employment took a job in Montana doing title work, and even then they said they are making pretty good money).

My guess is that Tech does not place as well in any big market as South Texas does in Houston.

Is that because STCL grads are limited to only one market, while you yourself even stated tech grads can “spread out throughout the state”? Hypothetically, is a school that places 10 people in biglaw in one city better than one that places 15 in multiple cities, with no more than 10 going to the same city?

You can go ahead and post again, because it seems like you want to have the last say. But, unless you add some substantive data and points instead of regurgitating what has already been discussed, Im done.

[20160810]

I hope SBL would give the same advice to many T2s then, because Tech is at least as good as half of the 2nd teir.

There was a Tulsa/Tech thread earlier... did that dood go to Tulsa because it is now #99 and not #107? The 2nd/3rd tier is actually pretty meaningless IMO. You can look at regional reps and find good law schools that bounce in and out of the "third tier toilet" group. There is such a massive difference between the University of Mizzou, which was "TTT" last year or Tech and Cooley, Florida Coastal, etc. In fact I'd wager that a Tech or Mizzou student could take a visiting year at Wisco or UGA and not miss a beat. Outside of the top 14, then maybe top 25 or so, all law schools have a lot in common with each other until you get to the bottom 50 or so.

Bro I go to a top-30 school and I give the same advice to people who want to come here. Law school costs more than it's worth pretty much everywhere, but the further you get down the food chain, the worse things are.

[Mce252]

B GUMP - I don't have time to go through all that right now. My posts are my opinion and advice. Again -- If you're choosing between two T3/T4 schools with not so great reputations, go to the one where you are best placed geographically to land a job. The only reason it would make sense to do otherwise is if you have significant financial incentive to go to Tech or absolutely cannot live in Houston.

Our perceptions, definitions and statistics are both of our own making (or come from flawed school reported employment stats) so trying to compare yours to mine is not going to pan out as a some rock solid conclusion. My opinion is based on what is absolutely known. Tech is in Lubbock. STCL is in Houston. Is this really that disturbing to you?

[mrwarre85]

B GUMP - I don't have time to go through all that right now. My posts are my opinion and advice. Again -- If you're choosing between two T3/T4 schools with not so great reputations, go to the one where you are best placed geographically to land a job. The only reason it would make sense to do otherwise is if you have significant financial incentive to go to Tech or absolutely cannot live in Houston.

Our perceptions, definitions and statistics are both of our own making (or come from flawed school reported employment stats) so trying to compare yours to mine is not going to pan out as a some rock solid conclusion. My opinion is based on what is absolutely known. Tech is in Lubbock. STCL is in Houston. Is this really that disturbing to you?

This guy is trolling.

South Texas is not ranked. Not ranked as in not ranked like Ave Maria, Cooley, and Florida Coastal. It has a lawyers and judges score of 2.2. Meaning most of the texas practitioners, aka the ones who might actually hire you, checked the "2" option when they were filling out their USNWR survey. I don't know what 2 means, but 1 means marginal and 5 means outstanding. I'm guessing 2 is bad. Tech law gets a 2.8. This means most of the texas practitioners, aka the ones who might actually hire you, checked the "3" box when they were filling out their USNWR. Again, I don't know what 3 means exactly, but 3 is the same score that T1 schools like UF, CU, and SMU mostly get. It is a world away from 2, a score that schools like ave maria and south texas get.

These are not peer schools, but if you do really well at South Texas you can take advantage of the networking opportunities and have a chance at good firm job. Most of tech grads actually become attorneys though, so it is the far better school. Sorry South Texas duder..

[Mce252]

B GUMP - I don't have time to go through all that right now. My posts are my opinion and advice. Again -- If you're choosing between two T3/T4 schools with not so great reputations, go to the one where you are best placed geographically to land a job. The only reason it would make sense to do otherwise is if you have significant financial incentive to go to Tech or absolutely cannot live in Houston.

Our perceptions, definitions and statistics are both of our own making (or come from flawed school reported employment stats) so trying to compare yours to mine is not going to pan out as a some rock solid conclusion. My opinion is based on what is absolutely known. Tech is in Lubbock. STCL is in Houston. Is this really that disturbing to you?

This guy is trolling.

South Texas is not ranked. Not ranked as in not ranked like Ave Maria, Cooley, and Florida Coastal. It has a lawyers and judges score of 2.2. Meaning most of the texas practitioners, aka the ones who might actually hire you, checked the "2" option when they were filling out their USNWR survey. I don't know what 2 means, but 1 means marginal and 5 means outstanding. I'm guessing 2 is bad. Tech law gets a 2.8. This means most of the texas practitioners, aka the ones who might actually hire you, checked the "3" box when they were filling out their USNWR. Again, I don't know what 3 means exactly, but 3 is the same score that T1 schools like UF, CU, and SMU mostly get. It is a world away from 2, a score that schools like ave maria and south texas get.

These are not peer schools, but if you do really well at South Texas you can take advantage of the networking opportunities and have a chance at good firm job. Most of tech grads actually become attorneys though, so it is the far better school. Sorry South Texas duder..

Yes, go to school based on the difference between a 2 and a 3 that you're not really sure means anything. Anyone telling you that some third or fourth tier school is much better than some other third or fourth tier school is just trying to justify their time spent at one of those schools. I'm at South Texas and I know it's not a good school. But the reasons I chose STCL over Tech were because of the things I've already explained. Those reasons were based on geography, not because South Texas is a "better" school. Every lower ranked school has some accolade that they can praise themselves with. Tech has a couple of big donations from Mark Lanier and I guess now they have the coveted 2.8 peer review score. South Texas has more mock/moot championships than any other school in the country (and I think is sometimes ranked as a top 10 school for advocacy) -- but none of that stuff means anything when you're a T3/T4 school. If there was a noticeable difference between the quality of the schools, the groups of students that they accept would be more nuanced. Almost every student I know at South Texas was also accepted at Tech and probably vice versa for Tech students.

Do South Texas grads not become attorneys? I've never heard that before.

[texas man]

I'm at South Texas and I know it's not a good school.

Everyone has an opinion, and I'd like to offer mine: I'm at Texas Tech, and I know it's a good school.

I'm not interested in arguing; I just want to offer a different view.

[imbored25]

bro,
retake
166
money at SMU/UH
profit

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Do South Texas grads not become attorneys? I've never heard that before.

You did yesterday:

South Texas had 6% clear 81k with 3% clearing 130k.

58% found work as a full time attorney.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

bro,
retake
166
money at SMU/UH
profit

Except maybe with a 166 he gets a full-ride at Tech.

You could probably live in Lubbock for 11k a year. So 33k minus what you make while working in law school. I'd take that.

[kalvano]

Lubbock is awful. They could set a Hunger Game there and it would be an appropriate location.

[Mce252]

Do South Texas grads not become attorneys? I've never heard that before.

You did yesterday:

South Texas had 6% clear 81k with 3% clearing 130k.

58% found work as a full time attorney.

Are these student reported statistics that are gathered right after they graduate? I'm not sure this is any indication that they decided not to practice law. Of the group that reported into whatever data you're looking at, it might have just taken them a long time to find a job that requires a JD.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Do South Texas grads not become attorneys? I've never heard that before.

You did yesterday:

South Texas had 6% clear 81k with 3% clearing 130k.

58% found work as a full time attorney.

Are these student reported statistics that are gathered right after they graduate? I'm not sure this is any indication that they decided not to practice law. Of the group that reported into whatever data you're looking at, it might have just taken them a long time to find a job that requires a JD.

No Nemo.. Just no....
This is the percentage of people that graduated from your law school last year who had found a real job as an attorney, nine months after graduation. The vast majority of those making less than 50k a year. This is how bad the legal market is; this is how bad your school is.

[Mce252]

Do South Texas grads not become attorneys? I've never heard that before.

You did yesterday:

South Texas had 6% clear 81k with 3% clearing 130k.

58% found work as a full time attorney.

Are these student reported statistics that are gathered right after they graduate? I'm not sure this is any indication that they decided not to practice law. Of the group that reported into whatever data you're looking at, it might have just taken them a long time to find a job that requires a JD.

No Nemo.. Just no....
This is the percentage of people that graduated from your law school last year who had found a real job as an attorney, nine months after graduation. The vast majority of those making less than 50k a year. This is how bad the legal market is; this is how bad your school is.

Okay so the answer to my question is that you are looking at student-reported data gathered soon after graduation. That data is incredibly flawed. Did you look at the reporting rate? I bet the percentage of graduating students that responded to whatever poll you're looking at is awful. You can't cite that and actually act like your giving out valid information.

[Lord Randolph McDuff]

Okay so the answer to my question is that you are looking at student-reported data gathered soon after graduation.

9 months out. That is when all law schools report to NALP.

That data is incredibly flawed. Did you look at the reporting rate?

92.7%. Law schools hound people to tell them if they have a job, and infamously try not to hear them say that they don't. Zero chance the 7.3% they couldn't track down was working. Zero.

I bet the percentage of graduating students that responded to whatever poll you're looking at is awful.

92.7%.

You can't cite that and actually act like your giving out valid information.

It is the only information we have. If you look at Harvard's #s, they are great. I suppose you will have to convince yourself that Harvard's COS does a better job with the reporting and that your school doesn't care about rankings..

Look man, I get it. Human beings like to think the things that they think. We are survivors: both with our physical selves and with our ideas. You do not want to change your mind.
The problem is that you are potentially misleading other people into making the same mistake that you did- attending a fourth tier toilet school in the midst of the greatest contraction in the history of the legal market. I know you that you made great grades and that you are going to be ok, but I also know that going to a fourth tier school like South Texas will end up being a financial disaster for most of your classmates. Understandably, you don't want to accept that your diploma will come from a school that is essentially scamming people. I get it.

But please- get off this board or come back with some facts. You're dangerous.