Emory (60k) vs Fordham vs BU vs Dozo (full ride) Forum

[GokartMozart315]

so these are my current options, though i am wl at gw, ucla, and vandy, and still haven't heard from wustl, usc, or cornell. however, i'm predicting these are my choices (3.4/167).

i want to practice in dc, maybe ny, and at the end of the day i will have help paying off most of law school, even without scholarships. however, the less i have to pay, the more money i have to invest in career hunting, lifestyle, and money down the road, of course.



thoughts on these choices? emory is the best-ranked school and gave me the 2nd most money, but i need more input

[mauryballstein]

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[top30man]

With Fordham and bu at sticker, two things:

Significant ties to the south?

If not, dozo. Fordham and BU are way too risky at sticker.

[dingbat]

I would say Emory, even though you might be keen on NYC. From what I've read on this board, it's hard to break into the NYC market when you're competing against grads from Columbia, NYU, Cornell, and then top graduates from lots of other highly-ranked schools. Even without the scholarship, I might choose Emory. Just my two cents, though.

Good luck on those other schools!

Note that most of this board is full of 0L and 1L people who don't know any better
Any newbies after a while start repeating the board's mantra of T14 or bust

The NY market is big. Yes, you're competing against half the T14, but there's plenty of room for more. Fordham places 25%-30% biglaw and much more into NY midlaw (which pays six figures). Dozo places well in NY and if you're in the top 10% of a T30 you should have a decent shot in NY.

[dingbat]

With Fordham and bu at sticker, two things:

Significant ties to the south?

If not, dozo. Fordham and BU are way too risky at sticker.

Fordham at sticker is not as risky as the perceived wisdom of this board:
Roughly speaking top 1/3 has a chance at biglaw. Middle third should have a decent job and be able to pay off loans without undue hardship. bottom third is screwed

[GokartMozart315]

thanks for the detailed replies! i guess i need to clarify a little further though. i'm much less concerned about the finances than about my long-term career. i want biglaw for the long-term prospects more than that money.

that said, two more questions:

1. how is emory as a choice to place into a. ny and b. dc?


2. to what degree are dozo and fordham comparable, forgetting about money for a minute? in ny, and in dc?

[GokartMozart315]

I would say Emory, even though you might be keen on NYC. From what I've read on this board, it's hard to break into the NYC market when you're competing against grads from Columbia, NYU, Cornell, and then top graduates from lots of other highly-ranked schools. Even without the scholarship, I might choose Emory. Just my two cents, though.

Good luck on those other schools!

Note that most of this board is full of 0L and 1L people who don't know any better
Any newbies after a while start repeating the board's mantra of T14 or bust

The NY market is big. Yes, you're competing against half the T14, but there's plenty of room for more. Fordham places 25%-30% biglaw and much more into NY midlaw (which pays six figures). Dozo places well in NY and if you're in the top 10% of a T30 you should have a decent shot in NY.

interesting. does fordham do respectably in big/midlaw outside ny?

[Tiago Splitter]

does fordham do respectably in big/midlaw outside ny?

No. But if you want Biglaw Fordham gives you some of the best odds outside of the T-14. And the reason for this, as dingbat mentioned, is that a huge portion of the Biglaw jobs are in NYC.

[GokartMozart315]

does fordham do respectably in big/midlaw outside ny?

No. But if you want Biglaw Fordham gives you some of the best odds outside of the T-14. And the reason for this, as dingbat mentioned, is that a huge portion of the Biglaw jobs are in NYC.

thanks, that's what i was afraid of; basically a regional school on steroids, since it's ny it offers biglaw. i basically want to have biglaw in ny as an option, i'm from ny but really don't like it. i'd prefer biglaw in dc and a career on that track, but need some flexibility...

[de5igual]

does fordham do respectably in big/midlaw outside ny?

No. But if you want Biglaw Fordham gives you some of the best odds outside of the T-14. And the reason for this, as dingbat mentioned, is that a huge portion of the Biglaw jobs are in NYC.

thanks, that's what i was afraid of; basically a regional school on steroids, since it's ny it offers biglaw. i basically want to have biglaw in ny as an option, i'm from ny but really don't like it. i'd prefer biglaw in dc and a career on that track, but need some flexibility...

sounds like it's gotta be T14 or bust for you. realize that even then, DC biglaw is extremely competitive and will require top grades at a T14.

[dingbat]

to what degree are dozo and fordham comparable, forgetting about money for a minute? in ny, and in dc?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/choosing ... in-ny.html

Fordham is a step above Cardozo. Realistically, Fordham doubles your chances of getting biglaw. If you can get into Fordham, you can expect to receive some money at 'dozo, making it a tough decision.
Fordham at sticker vs Dozo full ride I'd recommend Dozo, unless your goal is biglaw; then it's worth the risk.

Neither are particularly portable outside of NY

[dingbat]

to what degree are dozo and fordham comparable, forgetting about money for a minute? in ny, and in dc?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/choosing ... in-ny.html

Neither are particularly portable outside of NY.

As you've said, Fordham is basically a regional school on steroids, while Dozo is just a good regional school.

Realistically, Fordham doubles your chances of getting biglaw. If you can get into Fordham, you can expect to receive some money at 'dozo, making it a tough decision.
Fordham at sticker vs Dozo full ride I'd recommend Dozo, unless your goal is biglaw; then it's worth the risk.

[JusticeHarlan]

Fordham places 25%-30% biglaw and much more into NY midlaw (which pays six figures).

I've seen you make the midlaw argument before. Can you clarify what you mean by midlaw, and what percentage of the Fordham class you think actually place there? Specifically, here's Fordham's 2010 placement numbers: which firm categories are you referring to?

[dingbat]

Fordham places 25%-30% biglaw and much more into NY midlaw (which pays six figures).

I've seen you make the midlaw argument before. Can you clarify what you mean by midlaw, and what percentage of the Fordham class you think actually place there? Specifically, here's Fordham's 2010 placement numbers: which firm categories are you referring to?

I count firms of 50 or more as midlaw.
About 45% of grads work at firms of 50+ attorneys (including biglaw)
Once you factor in 13% doing clerkships and allowing for some self-selecting into PI (or other jobs*) its safe to say that unless you're bottom third (a rough estimate) you will be able to interview with midlaw firms (of course, some do strike out)

*60 percent get biglaw, midlaw, academia or clerkship. That means that of the top 2/3rd, only 6% dont get it. Some self select PI or government work (or even corporate) and some are socially inept or hav some other big disqualifier. Being ranked 70th might even get you a shot but the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 breakdown is more poetic

[romothesavior]

I would say Emory, even though you might be keen on NYC. From what I've read on this board, it's hard to break into the NYC market when you're competing against grads from Columbia, NYU, Cornell, and then top graduates from lots of other highly-ranked schools. Even without the scholarship, I might choose Emory. Just my two cents, though.

Good luck on those other schools!

Note that most of this board is full of 0L and 1L people who don't know any better
Any newbies after a while start repeating the board's mantra of T14 or bust

The NY market is big. Yes, you're competing against half the T14, but there's plenty of room for more. Fordham places 25%-30% biglaw and much more into NY midlaw (which pays six figures). Dozo places well in NY and if you're in the top 10% of a T30 you should have a decent shot in NY.

It's not so much a T14 or bust thing. Fordham is a solid school, and places well into biglaw relative to other T20/30 schools. The problem with it is that it is so incredibly expensive and stingy with financial aid. Going there at sticker is one of the riskiest decisions one can make for a T1 school. Even if you get biglaw, you're close to a quarter of a million dollars in debt. This means you need to not only be one of the lucky ones who gets biglaw, but you need to be one of the lucky few who keep biglaw for a relatively long period of time. And if you don't get biglaw or 10-year IBR, well... good luck. Being at a 60 attorney firm making mid-high 5-figures won't cut it in NYC if you have that kind of debt.

And I'm sorry, but the bold is silly. NYC is a big market with a lot of opportunities, but there isn't "plenty of room for more." It is highly over-saturated with lawyers.

[dingbat]

I apologize for the hyperbole, Like all markets, NY has too many lawyers.
However, there is room for top students at many schools, rather than just the T14 and a regional school.

Fordham at sticker is a risky proposition and requires serious consideration. But, if you get and keep a six figure job, you can manage - just dont expect to live in a doorman building in park avenue. Yes, new York is expensive, but it's not impossibly so.

[dingbat]

I apologize for the hyperbole, Like all markets, NY has too many lawyers.
However, there is room for top students at many schools, rather than just the T14 and a regional school.

Fordham at sticker is a risky proposition and requires serious consideration. But, if you get and keep a six figure job, you can manage - just dont expect to live in a doorman building in park avenue. Yes, new York is expensive, but it's not impossibly so.

Even a low six figure job will allow you to pay off a quarter million of law school debt and still live comfortably.

That being said, Fordham at sticker is really only for people willing to take the risk. It is a big gamble that should only be taken if you're gunning for NY (and didnt get into a T14)

[Antilles Haven]

1. how is emory as a choice to place into a. ny and b. dc?

a. Not bad
b. Not good

[Tiago Splitter]

Fordham places 25%-30% biglaw and much more into NY midlaw (which pays six figures).

I've seen you make the midlaw argument before. Can you clarify what you mean by midlaw, and what percentage of the Fordham class you think actually place there? Specifically, here's Fordham's 2010 placement numbers: which firm categories are you referring to?

I count firms of 50 or more as midlaw.
About 45% of grads work at firms of 50+ attorneys (including biglaw)
Once you factor in 13% doing clerkships and allowing for some self-selecting into PI (or other jobs*) its safe to say that unless you're bottom third (a rough estimate) you will be able to interview with midlaw firms (of course, some do strike out)

*60 percent get biglaw, midlaw, academia or clerkship. That means that of the top 2/3rd, only 6% dont get it. Some self select PI or government work (or even corporate) and some are socially inept or hav some other big disqualifier. Being ranked 70th might even get you a shot but the 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 breakdown is more poetic

Only 93.1% of people reported employment of any kind, and of those 93% only 50.5% reported working in private practice. From there, you'll see that the number working in 50+ attorney firms is only 35%.

[dingbat]

You're right - I should stop doing math in my head and writing on an iPhone.
I wish I could find the detailed salary statistics I reviewed previously. I dO know 44% make at least $145k and many more Make over $100k. I'll look it up next time I have a chance.

[romothesavior]

You're right - I should stop doing math in my head and writing on an iPhone.
I wish I could find the detailed salary statistics I reviewed previously. I dO know 44% make at least $145k and many more Make over $100k. I'll look it up next time I have a chance.

If 35% get jobs in firms of more than 50 people, I think you'd be hard pressed to arrive at the conclusion that 44% of the total class make $145k. I'll note that I'm no expert on Fordham's job data; I'm just pointing out that in no way is this possible. 9% of Fordham's class is not working in firms of <50 people and making $145k. Something has to give with the math here.

[dingbat]

You're right - I should stop doing math in my head and writing on an iPhone.
I wish I could find the detailed salary statistics I reviewed previously. I dO know 44% make at least $145k and many more Make over $100k. I'll look it up next time I have a chance.

If 35% get jobs in firms of more than 50 people, I think you'd be hard pressed to arrive at the conclusion that 44% of the total class make $145k. I'll note that I'm no expert on Fordham's job data; I'm just pointing out that in no way is this possible. 9% of Fordham's class is not working in firms of <50 people and making $145k. Something has to give with the math here.

I'm on a cell phone do I can't post links, but the 2009 employment status sticky post in this forum gives that salary information. (I have seen other pages with more details, but can't find it look things up that easily now)

Note: this does mean comparing 2009 and 2010 statistics, which I realize is a nono.
Can we agree that 2010 employment data should be considered a worst case scenario? While the future might not be as good as it once was, legal hiring has picked up (especially in NY) so it is unlikely to be worse

[Tiago Splitter]

The LST chart for c/o 2009 does show about 50% making 145K or more. C/O 2008 is more than 55% making 150K+.

[romothesavior]

The LST chart for c/o 2009 does show about 50% making 145K or more. C/O 2008 is more than 55% making 150K+.

Okay, didn't realize we were talking about different years. I'm skeptical of LST at times. I mean, break down their Fordham c/o 2009 data... the exact same %age of people work in firms under <145k, 145-160k, 160k, and >160k? Am I reading that right? That is sketch as hell. But I mean, the data is apparently the best we can do for salary info, so I suppose I will defer to it.

And yes dingbat, I do agree that c/o 2010 data is not indicative of the current state of hiring. But it isn't anywhere near pre-ITE either. Probably closer to the former than the latter.

[dingbat]

The LST chart for c/o 2009 does show about 50% making 145K or more. C/O 2008 is more than 55% making 150K+.

Okay, didn't realize we were talking about different years. I'm skeptical of LST at times. I mean, break down their Fordham c/o 2009 data... the exact same %age of people work in firms under <145k, 145-160k, 160k, and >160k? Am I reading that right? That is sketch as hell. But I mean, the data is apparently the best we can do for salary info, so I suppose I will defer to it.

And yes dingbat, I do agree that c/o 2010 data is not indicative of the current state of hiring. But it isn't anywhere near pre-ITE either. Probably closer to the former than the latter.

I do respect your opinion and while I sometimes disagree, I think you're one of the better informed and more intelligent posters here.

I am sometimes a little too fast to spout out answers, I know the NY market better than most 0Ls. My firm does business with numerous biglaw firms, whether directly or through the IBs we work closely with. (not to mention my personal contacts and the fact that I research the shit out of things)