Any input appreciated..undecided between t14 schools Forum

[soflalife]

Thanks for the input

[AntipodeanPhil]

You should go to Chicago, unless Stanford accepts you.

The basic reason why is that Chicago has the best placement. You want big law, and Chicago is more likely to get that for you.

Even if they accept you, Columbia is more expensive than Chicago (in terms of tution and cost of living). If you have a strong preference for living in NYC, Columbia makes sense, but only then. NYU has distinctly worse big law placement. People will try to argue NYU places worse because of self-selection, but that's an unprovable theory. Do you want to choose a school on the basis of an unprovable theory?

However, you should make an effort to negotiate financial aid before making a decision. Tell NYU and Duke that you will be going to Chicago unless they offer you money (in polite terms, of course). If they offer you money, tell Chicago about it. There is a good chance Chicago will give you something if you can get money from one of the others.

[Gail]

What he said.


Although I would cut off my arm to pay sticker at Chicago.

[soflalife]

[Bronck]

You should go to Chicago, unless Stanford accepts you.

The basic reason why is that Chicago has the best placement. You want big law, and Chicago is more likely to get that for you.

Even if they accept you, Columbia is more expensive than Chicago (in terms of tution and cost of living). If you have a strong preference for living in NYC, Columbia makes sense, but only then. NYU has distinctly worse big law placement. People will try to argue NYU places worse because of self-selection, but that's an unprovable theory. Do you want to choose a school on the basis of an unprovable theory?

However, you should make an effort to negotiate financial aid before making a decision. Tell NYU and Duke that you will be going to Chicago unless they offer you money (in polite terms, of course). If they offer you money, tell Chicago about it. There is a good chance Chicago will give you something if you can get money from one of the others.

Lol, no.

[AntipodeanPhil]

You should go to Chicago, unless Stanford accepts you.

The basic reason why is that Chicago has the best placement. You want big law, and Chicago is more likely to get that for you.

Even if they accept you, Columbia is more expensive than Chicago (in terms of tution and cost of living). If you have a strong preference for living in NYC, Columbia makes sense, but only then. NYU has distinctly worse big law placement. People will try to argue NYU places worse because of self-selection, but that's an unprovable theory. Do you want to choose a school on the basis of an unprovable theory?

However, you should make an effort to negotiate financial aid before making a decision. Tell NYU and Duke that you will be going to Chicago unless they offer you money (in polite terms, of course). If they offer you money, tell Chicago about it. There is a good chance Chicago will give you something if you can get money from one of the others.

Lol, no.

Look at the data the schools provide (since that seems to be what we're trusting now). Columbia's big law percentages are significantly higher than NYU's.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

[AntipodeanPhil]

Thanks so much Anti! I'm not a huge fan of the NY life which is why I wasn't leaning towards NYU or Columbia (especially when you add in COL) and the fact that I'm trying to come back south to practice. Any thoughts on Penn? That is where I was originally leaning towards until Chicago came into the picture.

But yeah if I get into Stanford all bets go out the window and I'm heading west coast. A girl can only hope for an opportunity like that!

And yeah Gail, I won't exactly cut off any limbs but I am more than willing to go into debt to pay sticker at any of these schools (I obviously am not being so forthcoming to the schools with that info just in case they decide to throw me a bone).

Chicago has a smaller class size and seems to have a slightly better reputation amongst employers. That said, Penn big law placement for the last year we have data for (2010) was amazing. Would you rather live in Chicago or Philadelphia?

[bk1]

Look at the data the schools provide (since that seems to be what we're trusting now). Columbia's big law percentages are significantly higher than NYU's.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

Either you or I am bad at the maths.

[chiwachiwa]

I'm trying to come back south to practice. Any thoughts on Penn? That is where I was originally leaning towards until Chicago came into the picture.

Why didn't you apply to UVA? Outside of HY, UVA is king in the Southeast.

[Tiago Splitter]

Look at the data the schools provide (since that seems to be what we're trusting now). Columbia's big law percentages are significantly higher than NYU's.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

Either you or I am bad at the maths.

The real question is why are we comparing Columbia and NYU when the choice is between Chicago and NYU?

[Bronck]

You should go to Chicago, unless Stanford accepts you.

The basic reason why is that Chicago has the best placement. You want big law, and Chicago is more likely to get that for you.

Even if they accept you, Columbia is more expensive than Chicago (in terms of tution and cost of living). If you have a strong preference for living in NYC, Columbia makes sense, but only then. NYU has distinctly worse big law placement. People will try to argue NYU places worse because of self-selection, but that's an unprovable theory. Do you want to choose a school on the basis of an unprovable theory?

However, you should make an effort to negotiate financial aid before making a decision. Tell NYU and Duke that you will be going to Chicago unless they offer you money (in polite terms, of course). If they offer you money, tell Chicago about it. There is a good chance Chicago will give you something if you can get money from one of the others.

Lol, no.

Look at the data the schools provide (since that seems to be what we're trusting now). Columbia's big law percentages are significantly higher than NYU's.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

You have to realize that a) a subset of NYU students are locked into PI through named scholarships b) NYU has historically had much higher PI numbers than peer schools, even when looking at boom years. Yes, they increased their PI numbers after the crash, but so did almost all of the peer schools (by a similar percent).

Even if we take into account (a) and (b), CLS may still have a slightly higher proportion of students going into biglaw. Does that mean if Student X was ranked in Y percentile at Columbia, s/he would get an interview, while the same exact student ranked Y percentile at NYU wouldn't? I doubt it.

And lol, yes, Tiago has a good point.

[AntipodeanPhil]

Look at the data the schools provide (since that seems to be what we're trusting now). Columbia's big law percentages are significantly higher than NYU's.

http://www.law.nyu.edu/careerservices/e ... /index.htm
http://www.law.columbia.edu/careers/emp ... statistics

Either you or I am bad at the maths.

Columbia's percentage of 2010 graduates in firms with 251+ lawyers:
61.2% + 7.5% = 68.7%

NYU's percentage of 2010 graduates in firms with 251+ lawyers:
91.2% (81.1% + 10.1%) of 61.7% = 56.3%

Of course, firms with 251+ lawyers =/= big law exactly, but let's not start on that.

[bk1]

Columbia's percentage of 2010 graduates in firms with 251+ lawyers:
61.2% + 7.5% = 68.7%

NYU's percentage of 2010 graduates in firms with 251+ lawyers:
91.2% of 61.7% = 56.3%

Of course, firms with 251+ lawyers =/= big law exactly, but let's not start on that.

Boondoggled by different presentation of stats. However:

NYU has distinctly worse big law placement. People will try to argue NYU places worse because of self-selection, but that's an unprovable theory.

NYU: 14%, CLS: 3%

[AntipodeanPhil]

Even if we take into account (a) and (b), CLS may still have a slightly higher proportion of students going into biglaw. Does that mean if Student X was ranked in Y percentile at Columbia, s/he would get an interview, while the same exact student ranked Y percentile at NYU wouldn't? I doubt it.

That's exactly it. We know that X percentage of CLS students get big law. You might imagine or suppose that a similar percentage of NYU grads would get big law, if they wanted big law and/or weren't required to pursue PI, but you can't know. Isn't it better to base a decision on data, rather than a supposition?

[AntipodeanPhil]

Boondoggled by different presentation of stats.

Yeah, the percentages have to be treated differently because they are not percentages of the same thing. Columbia's numbers are percentages of all employed graduates; NYU's numbers are percentages of employed graduates who joined law firms only. It's confusing and stupid.

[Bronck]

Yes, Columbia is probably marginally better for the most elite firms, but at the end of the day you'll be able to get the same jobs out of NYU and Columbia (and Chicago for that matter, since they're all peers). Hiring partners aren't going to do all of this hairsplitting between NYU and CLS. I imagine the grade cutoffs are very similar. Some of the top firms favor students from NYU while others favor students from CLS.

So returning to the original intent of the thread, it doesn't really matter whether s/he chooses NYU or Chicago. Since s/he appears to dislike the NY lifestyle, Chicago is probably a better choice.

[soflalife]

Thanks everyone. I really have no interest in living in NY (just not my kinda lifestyle/city) and since I am waitlisted at Columbia my focus is primarily between Penn and Chicago. It seems like the lean is towards Chicago. I have never been to either city and was wondering if they were peer schools enough I could just choose which city/campus I prefer when I visit in the next week or if there was a significant advantage to one or the other that I have been missing. I have been hearing a lot about Penn's collegiality and strong fl job network (which initially attracted me) and of course I know about Chicago's amazing overall influence. Both seem to do placement in big law which is where I think I will eventually end up.

[DallasCowboy]

Look to see which of them have the most Miami offices doing OCI. Either way, you have a similar shot at the Miami market. Visit the firms whenever you are back in town over breaks/attend law student receptions and network. If you get Columbia, go there.

[justicefishy]

Thanks everyone. I really have no interest in living in NY (just not my kinda lifestyle/city) and since I am waitlisted at Columbia my focus is primarily between Penn and Chicago. It seems like the lean is towards Chicago. I have never been to either city and was wondering if they were peer schools enough I could just choose which city/campus I prefer when I visit in the next week or if there was a significant advantage to one or the other that I have been missing. I have been hearing a lot about Penn's collegiality and strong fl job network (which initially attracted me) and of course I know about Chicago's amazing overall influence. Both seem to do placement in big law which is where I think I will eventually end up.

Neither of them are bad choices and I wish I was in your shoes

That said, if you can leverage your Chicago acceptance into money at Penn, I'd say go to Penn. If you're interested in doing some sort of joint degree program, Penn's great for that too (Chicago's supposed to be good but not as). If you don't like the cold, pick Penn. Philly's also a better city in my opinion (yes, I know, I'm weird). That said, if none of those things appeal to you/you like the city of Chicago more, I'd go with Chicago for superior (slightly) elite firm placement and better reach into academia.

[soflalife]

[chiwachiwa]

I'm trying to come back south to practice. Any thoughts on Penn? That is where I was originally leaning towards until Chicago came into the picture.

Why didn't you apply to UVA? Outside of HY, UVA is king in the Southeast.

I ask again...

[justicefishy]

Good tip about the OCI dallas, I have break next week and will be in sofla the first half so it's perfect.

And thanks so much justice, I keep pinching myself, I still can't believe it! I definitely do NOT like the cold, and I have never even seen snow before, which is another reason Chicago is scary (and why I ultimately want to move back to Miami)....so if I am gonna face 3 years of this "windy city" I wanna make sure it's worth it/I'm not miserable the whole time. I'll try leveraging with Penn, I've been hearing a lot lately that they hate losing kids to Chicago.

Chicago is cold and windy. Like my grandmother once couldn't move because the wind was too strong windy. If you're not a fan of cold, or want less cold, I'd say come to Penn.

[keg411]

Good tip about the OCI dallas, I have break next week and will be in sofla the first half so it's perfect.

And thanks so much justice, I keep pinching myself, I still can't believe it! I definitely do NOT like the cold, and I have never even seen snow before, which is another reason Chicago is scary (and why I ultimately want to move back to Miami)....so if I am gonna face 3 years of this "windy city" I wanna make sure it's worth it/I'm not miserable the whole time. I'll try leveraging with Penn, I've been hearing a lot lately that they hate losing kids to Chicago.

Chicago is cold and windy. Like my grandmother once couldn't move because the wind was too strong windy. If you're not a fan of cold, or want less cold, I'd say come to Penn.

Last I checked (read: last year) Philly had winter too.

[CanadianWolf]

Since you want to return to Florida to live & work, consider Duke. Ask for scholarship consideration in light of your acceptances to Chicago, Penn & NYU.

Have you visited any of these law schools ? I ask because if you are ruling out NYU & Columbia due to a dislike of "the New York lifestyle", I wonder how you'll feel about Penn & Chicago.

Did you apply to Harvard ?

[justicefishy]

Good tip about the OCI dallas, I have break next week and will be in sofla the first half so it's perfect.

And thanks so much justice, I keep pinching myself, I still can't believe it! I definitely do NOT like the cold, and I have never even seen snow before, which is another reason Chicago is scary (and why I ultimately want to move back to Miami)....so if I am gonna face 3 years of this "windy city" I wanna make sure it's worth it/I'm not miserable the whole time. I'll try leveraging with Penn, I've been hearing a lot lately that they hate losing kids to Chicago.

Chicago is cold and windy. Like my grandmother once couldn't move because the wind was too strong windy. If you're not a fan of cold, or want less cold, I'd say come to Penn.

Last I checked (read: last year) Philly had winter too.

Less cold, not no cold