Seton Hall/St. Johns/RU-Newark/Villanova Forum

[Azmatt]

So, as it is, here are the options I'm contemplating.

My preferences.

NY > DC > NJ > PA

I would like to work in a large firm to pay off any outstanding debts, then at least have options. Clearly I'm going to need to do well to get the opportunity for such a large firm. New York is, again, obviously my first choice for that.

Rutgers was initially my first choice, but St. John's is looking better. I believe it has better employment networks in NY as well as not restricting me to living in NJ. I have a friend in NY who would love to have my gf and I as roommates. She can't stomach the thought of NJ, so NJ COL costs would be split between my gf and myself. The gf will be supporting me a bit (She has numerous offers and I've helped her in the past when she needed it). I'll be leaving with 10-15k in savings, so the first year COL additions to my loans will be minimal if any.

I know the likelyhood of reaching my goal is low, but I have a contingencies in place if I just completely collapse my first year. The financial cost of undertaking law school for at least 1year is less than the cost of living the rest of my life knowing I didn't take the chance on something I have wanted to do for years. Obv I'm a special snowflake...

NOW, taking the jump in rankings for St. John's into consideration... It's even more reason to re-consider my initial leanings towards Rutgers. Employment prospects are relatively similar between both schools.

Any further input is appreciated. I'll continue to re-read the older posts, but with my particular dynamic, I felt the need to make a new post.

Thanks.


P.S. - There's a slight chance of getting off Fordham's WL. That may verywell be auto-accept if it happens...

[stillwater]

1) Do you have in-state at Rutgers?

If no,

2) You need to try to get these schools to remove these draconian stipulations on your scholarships

If no,

Retake due to poor job prospects. (This is really the best advice, but you need to really look at the above 2 points if you insist on going).

[Azmatt]

Yes, RU-N will be in-state. 12month lease will be signed/submitted before classes start.


No more retakes, unfortunately. Once was... a bad day. Drastically underperformed. Next two were "alright," but also well below my average PT score.

I personally don't consider top 40% "draconian."

I do plan on visiting all the schools in the area prior to the deposits being do as well. That might have to be the deciding factor. Any experiences in these schools/areas?

[JCFindley]

1) Do you have in-state at Rutgers?

If no,

2) You need to try to get these schools to remove these draconian stipulations on your scholarships

If no,

Retake due to poor job prospects. (This is really the best advice, but you need to really look at the above 2 points if you insist on going).

Rutgers EWR only requires that you show them a 1 yr lease to get in state tuition even for 1L.....

The jump in rankings means absolutely nothing when considering Rutgers. Its nice and all but the job prospects will be exactly the same as they were before. Big law will not notice unless we suddenly start talking about HYSR, then it would matter So really the change in rankings shouldn't be a factor.

I am aiming at that same bunch of schools and each has its own advantages. The biglaw chance at all of them seem about the same. Finish number 1 in your class and you're a shoe in..... (Slight exaggeration but not all that much.)

To be honest the stipulations at SH and SJ are scary unless you are thinking of dropping out if you don't get it year two. They are ridiculously priced at sticker considering the current job market. At least with Rutgers you could continue at in state tuition and complete the degree if you lose the money just so long as you end up liking NJ more than you think you will.

JC

[stillwater]

Yes, RU-N will be in-state. 12month lease will be signed/submitted before classes start.


No more retakes, unfortunately. Once was... a bad day. Drastically underperformed. Next two were "alright," but also well below my average PT score.

I personally don't consider top 40% "draconian."

I do plan on visiting all the schools in the area prior to the deposits being do as well. That might have to be the deciding factor. Any experiences in these schools/areas?

Top 40% is pretty bad. You can't assume better than median. Also, I don't know what the school's history with section stacking is, but a top 40% stipulation is one of the worst I've heard of. Either way, the semantics are not important, you need to hustle to get those stips greatly reduced or removed.

[Azmatt]

1) Do you have in-state at Rutgers?

If no,

2) You need to try to get these schools to remove these draconian stipulations on your scholarships

If no,

Retake due to poor job prospects. (This is really the best advice, but you need to really look at the above 2 points if you insist on going).

Rutgers EWR only requires that you show them a 1 yr lease to get in state tuition even for 1L.....

The jump in rankings means absolutely nothing when considering Rutgers. Its nice and all but the job prospects will be exactly the same as they were before. Big law will not notice unless we suddenly start talking about HYSR, then it would matter So really the change in rankings shouldn't be a factor.

I am aiming at that same bunch of schools and each has its own advantages. The biglaw chance at all of them seem about the same. Finish number 1 in your class and you're a shoe in..... (Slight exaggeration but not all that much.)

To be honest the stipulations at SH and SJ are scary unless you are thinking of dropping out if you don't get it year two. They are ridiculously priced at sticker considering the current job market. At least with Rutgers you could continue at in state tuition and complete the degree if you lose the money just so long as you end up liking NJ more than you think you will.

JC

This is a valid point. I don't like to assume I'll lose my scholarship with it being at median, but at least it wouldn't completely destroy my opportunity to practice law of some sort (in regards to prudent financial decision making). I appreciate it. Where are you leaning, JC?

With the comment below from stillwater, that's equally valid. While I am prepared to take other opportunities if I tanked the first year, it wouldn't be as pressing at Rutgers vs. St. John's.

I suppose a big concern is placement. I'd hate to leave RU-N and, even doing "well," having to be relegated to NJ if the same level of performance would've afforded me more desireable positions in NY Area from St. John's. With that said, NJ does place a good % in NY it seems. Good % meaning 25%. Curious if that's the top 25%.

[JCFindley]

1) Do you have in-state at Rutgers?

If no,

2) You need to try to get these schools to remove these draconian stipulations on your scholarships

If no,

Retake due to poor job prospects. (This is really the best advice, but you need to really look at the above 2 points if you insist on going).

Rutgers EWR only requires that you show them a 1 yr lease to get in state tuition even for 1L.....

The jump in rankings means absolutely nothing when considering Rutgers. Its nice and all but the job prospects will be exactly the same as they were before. Big law will not notice unless we suddenly start talking about HYSR, then it would matter So really the change in rankings shouldn't be a factor.

I am aiming at that same bunch of schools and each has its own advantages. The biglaw chance at all of them seem about the same. Finish number 1 in your class and you're a shoe in..... (Slight exaggeration but not all that much.)

To be honest the stipulations at SH and SJ are scary unless you are thinking of dropping out if you don't get it year two. They are ridiculously priced at sticker considering the current job market. At least with Rutgers you could continue at in state tuition and complete the degree if you lose the money just so long as you end up liking NJ more than you think you will.

JC

This is a valid point. I don't like to assume I'll lose my scholarship with it being at median, but at least it wouldn't completely destroy my opportunity to practice law of some sort (in regards to prudent financial decision making). I appreciate it. Where are you leaning, JC?

With the comment below from stillwater, that's equally valid. While I am prepared to take other opportunities if I tanked the first year, it wouldn't be as pressing at Rutgers vs. St. John's.

I suppose a big concern is placement. I'd hate to leave RU-N and, even doing "well," having to be relegated to NJ if the same level of performance would've afforded me more desireable positions in NY Area from St. John's. With that said, NJ does place a good % in NY it seems. Good % meaning 25%. Curious if that's the top 25%.

I applied late and underpreformed on my LSAT so even the schools I am in the range for may or may not give me an offer..... Yes, I may retake and sit out..... (Honest preemptive statement)

To really answer the question I have to say my wife was born and raised in Bayside Queens and works as a flight attendant based in Newark. NYC is the only area I am applying to law schools.

Fordham will be an auto accept if I get in. For the sake of argument my more realistic choices will be SJ and RN or retake. I have money from the military so either would be paid for and I would get a slightly higher housing allowance at SJ. I think that they have equal chances at big law but I don't really care. What I do care about is other job prospects. I think RN and SH pretty much own NJ where as SJ has CLS, NYU, Fordham, Yeshiva, Brooklyn, NYLS, Hofstra and any of the T-14 looking to work in NY to compete with. I think the long term prospects for jobs look better out of RN for anyone not at the top of their class.

That said, it would be a toss up between the two for me.

JC

[timbs4339]

The 40% stip doesn't matter. You will need to place top 10% (probably more like top 5%) at Rutgers or St. Johns to have a shot at biglaw.

My first advice is to wait, get WE, and retake or just don't go.

My second advice is to go to whichever will leave you with less debt after 1L. You need to be absolutely sure you will drop out if you do not get biglaw because it will not happen if you don't get it after the first year. If you don't get biglaw you are only a little less screwed than the non-scholly holder even if you keep your scholly.

My third advice, if you absolutely have to go next year (like someone is holding your mom hostage unless you enroll) is to go to Rutgers in-state. Do not attend St. John's with that stipulation because you will need to spend 2L and 3L hustling for work outside the law school and will have less time to study.

[MrAnon]

You don't have realistic expectations about your career. You go to one of these schools then you have to be in the top 5 or 10 students to score a big firm job and have "options" later on.

The outcome for 95% of students at these schools is more along the line of smallish job paying 50K to start if they are lucky. A few lotto winners will end up with cushy big firm gigs.

So, for what you want to do, I wouldn't go to any of these schools. I'd look at a different profession that does not require the money for a grad degree and the 3 years waiting to see if you made it or not.

[Azmatt]

The 40% stip doesn't matter. You will need to place top 10% (probably more like top 5%) at Rutgers or St. Johns to have a shot at biglaw.

My first advice is to wait, get WE, and retake or just don't go.

My second advice is to go to whichever will leave you with less debt after 1L. You need to be absolutely sure you will drop out if you do not get biglaw because it will not happen if you don't get it after the first year. If you don't get biglaw you are only a little less screwed than the non-scholly holder even if you keep your scholly.

My third advice, if you absolutely have to go next year (like someone is holding your mom hostage unless you enroll) is to go to Rutgers in-state. Do not attend St. John's with that stipulation because you will need to spend 2L and 3L hustling for work outside the law school and will have less time to study.

You know I pretty much accounted for most of this in my initial post. I can't retake. Except, I do have plenty of WE. I don't need to drop out if I don't get big law. I won't need big law to support myself with my new payments. My projected debt-load 6mo after graduation makes my payments managable on my salary now. As I mentioned, my costs are going to be reduced with the GF helping me out a lot. I've crunched the #s. There's nothing wreckless about this choice. Not unless I'm below median at SJ and continue sans-scholarship.

[Linsanity]

St. Johns or Cardozo would be nice fits

[Azmatt]

You don't have realistic expectations about your career. You go to one of these schools then you have to be in the top 5 or 10 students to score a big firm job and have "options" later on.

The outcome for 95% of students at these schools is more along the line of smallish job paying 50K to start if they are lucky. A few lotto winners will end up with cushy big firm gigs.

So, for what you want to do, I wouldn't go to any of these schools. I'd look at a different profession that does not require the money for a grad degree and the 3 years waiting to see if you made it or not.

I think I have very realistic expectations. As I mentioned, the ultimate goal is unlikely. Which is just as you described. However, I do desire to work on law. 95% of the students making 50k is not realistic. In fact, 14% of the 258 grads at RU-N left with very healthy salaries(100+ or so). I need to find the NALP for 2010 for more precise #s. Hyperbole doesn't deter me. Facts do.


Edit:

http://www.law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/NALP%202010.pdf

[superbloom]

What about the north NJ area puts you off? Compared to NYC, it has a lower COL, and is very close to NYC. Rutgers is 13.3 miles from the Empire State Building, St. Johns is 12.6 miles. Despite Newark, North Jersey is a super affluent area.

[timbs4339]

The 40% stip doesn't matter. You will need to place top 10% (probably more like top 5%) at Rutgers or St. Johns to have a shot at biglaw.

My first advice is to wait, get WE, and retake or just don't go.

My second advice is to go to whichever will leave you with less debt after 1L. You need to be absolutely sure you will drop out if you do not get biglaw because it will not happen if you don't get it after the first year. If you don't get biglaw you are only a little less screwed than the non-scholly holder even if you keep your scholly.

My third advice, if you absolutely have to go next year (like someone is holding your mom hostage unless you enroll) is to go to Rutgers in-state. Do not attend St. John's with that stipulation because you will need to spend 2L and 3L hustling for work outside the law school and will have less time to study.

You know I pretty much accounted for most of this in my initial post. I can't retake. Except, I do have plenty of WE. I don't need to drop out if I don't get big law. I won't need big law to support myself with my new payments. My projected debt-load 6mo after graduation makes my payments managable on my salary now. As I mentioned, my costs are going to be reduced with the GF helping me out a lot. I've crunched the #s. There's nothing wreckless about this choice. Not unless I'm below median at SJ and continue sans-scholarship.

In your initial post you said:

I would like to work in a large firm to pay off any outstanding debts, then at least have options. Clearly I'm going to need to do well to get the opportunity for such a large firm. New York is, again, obviously my first choice for that.

Large firm = biglaw, unless you want to work temporary document review and be technically employed by them. Even those jobs are hard to come by without experience.

You say you'd like to work for a large firm, which usually implies large debts. If you could lay out your cost of attendance for each school and then the schollys and stipulations, it would be more helpful.

I still say, if you absolutely have to go, attend Rutgers, in-state, and be prepared to live and pay down debt on a salary of between 40-55K.

[Azmatt]

and I also said

"I know the likelyhood of reaching my goal is low, but I have a contingencies in place if I just completely collapse my first year."

Nor did I imply that it was the only desireable avenue in pursing law, just the preferable one.

Honestly, I don't know much about North NJ. I hear Rutherford area is nice, but I just have no first hand account. Does anyone have any information about the legal market in NJ? That would be interesting to look at as well. I would like to be able to pick up golf again some time after law school.

[20130312]

.

[MrAnon]

and I also said

"I know the likelyhood of reaching my goal is low, but I have a contingencies in place if I just completely collapse my first year."

Nor did I imply that it was the only desireable avenue in pursing law, just the preferable one.

Honestly, I don't know much about North NJ. I hear Rutherford area is nice, but I just have no first hand account. Does anyone have any information about the legal market in NJ? That would be interesting to look at as well. I would like to be able to pick up golf again some time after law school.

Its not an issue of complete collapse. If you do well at these schools you still won't get the coveted the job. You have to be among the elites.

[Azmatt]

I think I have very realistic expectations. As I mentioned, the ultimate goal is unlikely. Which is just as you described. However, I do desire to work on law. 95% of the students making 50k is not realistic. In fact, 14% of the 258 grads at RU-N left with very healthy salaries(100+ or so). I need to find the NALP for 2010 for more precise #s. Hyperbole doesn't deter me. Facts do.


Edit:

http://www.law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/NALP%202010.pdf

Good point.

Revised numbers: 86% are making ~$50k.

http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

I'll take the non-0% scale from 65k-145k COMBINED as an acceptable addition to the 160k elite %s.

It's not just the spikey things that matter.

[Azmatt]

and I also said

"I know the likelyhood of reaching my goal is low, but I have a contingencies in place if I just completely collapse my first year."

Nor did I imply that it was the only desireable avenue in pursing law, just the preferable one.

Honestly, I don't know much about North NJ. I hear Rutherford area is nice, but I just have no first hand account. Does anyone have any information about the legal market in NJ? That would be interesting to look at as well. I would like to be able to pick up golf again some time after law school.

Its not an issue of complete collapse. If you do well at these schools you still won't get the coveted the job. You have to be among the elites.

Perhaps I need more specificity. While I would like the coveted elite job, the law distribution is also a spectrum. It's not suck/not suck situation. In the distribution in law-firm sizes there's a steady drop in salary which is consistent with firm size. Large firm doesn't necessarily mean only the largest firms. There are a lot of great salaries in the 100 associate range for RU-N 2010 grads all the way up to the 501+ mega-firm outlier graduates.

[Azmatt]

But ya. Thanks for the help. RU-N still looks like a winner.

[20130312]

But ya. Thanks for the help. RU-N still looks like a winner.

lolok.

[MrAnon]

You don't have realistic expectations about your career. You go to one of these schools then you have to be in the top 5 or 10 students to score a big firm job and have "options" later on.

The outcome for 95% of students at these schools is more along the line of smallish job paying 50K to start if they are lucky. A few lotto winners will end up with cushy big firm gigs.

So, for what you want to do, I wouldn't go to any of these schools. I'd look at a different profession that does not require the money for a grad degree and the 3 years waiting to see if you made it or not.

I think I have very realistic expectations. As I mentioned, the ultimate goal is unlikely. Which is just as you described. However, I do desire to work on law. 95% of the students making 50k is not realistic. In fact, 14% of the 258 grads at RU-N left with very healthy salaries(100+ or so). I need to find the NALP for 2010 for more precise #s. Hyperbole doesn't deter me. Facts do.


Edit:

http://www.law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/NALP%202010.pdf

And some lesser number of that (8%?) were working as lawyers making that much. Think about that. They are taking whatever work people are doing and throwing it all in there to get a higher number. 40% of grads don't know their salary or won't report.

[Azmatt]

But ya. Thanks for the help. RU-N still looks like a winner.

lolok.

Amongst the short list. Don't confuse me for a cheerleader.

[Azmatt]

You don't have realistic expectations about your career. You go to one of these schools then you have to be in the top 5 or 10 students to score a big firm job and have "options" later on.

The outcome for 95% of students at these schools is more along the line of smallish job paying 50K to start if they are lucky. A few lotto winners will end up with cushy big firm gigs.

So, for what you want to do, I wouldn't go to any of these schools. I'd look at a different profession that does not require the money for a grad degree and the 3 years waiting to see if you made it or not.

I think I have very realistic expectations. As I mentioned, the ultimate goal is unlikely. Which is just as you described. However, I do desire to work on law. 95% of the students making 50k is not realistic. In fact, 14% of the 258 grads at RU-N left with very healthy salaries(100+ or so). I need to find the NALP for 2010 for more precise #s. Hyperbole doesn't deter me. Facts do.


Edit:

http://www.law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/NALP%202010.pdf

And some lesser number of that (8%?) were working as lawyers making that much. Think about that. They are taking whatever work people are doing and throwing it all in there to get a higher number. 40% of grads don't know their salary or won't report.

I pulled the 14% from # of individuals in firms 51-100+ / 258 grads in 2010. That doesn't include non-private firm positions.

[timbs4339]

You don't have realistic expectations about your career. You go to one of these schools then you have to be in the top 5 or 10 students to score a big firm job and have "options" later on.

The outcome for 95% of students at these schools is more along the line of smallish job paying 50K to start if they are lucky. A few lotto winners will end up with cushy big firm gigs.

So, for what you want to do, I wouldn't go to any of these schools. I'd look at a different profession that does not require the money for a grad degree and the 3 years waiting to see if you made it or not.

I think I have very realistic expectations. As I mentioned, the ultimate goal is unlikely. Which is just as you described. However, I do desire to work on law. 95% of the students making 50k is not realistic. In fact, 14% of the 258 grads at RU-N left with very healthy salaries(100+ or so). I need to find the NALP for 2010 for more precise #s. Hyperbole doesn't deter me. Facts do.


Edit:

http://www.law.newark.rutgers.edu/files/NALP%202010.pdf

And some lesser number of that (8%?) were working as lawyers making that much. Think about that. They are taking whatever work people are doing and throwing it all in there to get a higher number. 40% of grads don't know their salary or won't report.

I pulled the 14% from # of individuals in firms 51-100+ / 258 grads in 2010. That doesn't include non-private firm positions.

You assume that the people under the 25th% are still making comparable salaries to their peers above. They may be working for less, or working temp doc review.

And if you are doing the prudent thing and assuming you will finish median, that really doesn't help your argument much.