NYU with $$ or NU with $$$$ Forum

[EdgarWinter]

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[lawyerwannabe]

Free T13 + Very similar job placement + Better name recognition* = you must really have an affinity for NYU.

Like someone said earlier, grades are really scary and there is no telling how you will do. The pressure of grades is exacerbated by the debt hanging over someone's head. You can relieve this pressure by attending NU.

Also, the opportunity cost is not a year a BigLaw. Sure, you will get BigLaw one year later in your life but that does not mean that you miss an entire year's worth of BigLaw salary (if you get such a job) just because you start it one year later in your career progression.

*Note: from NY and if NYU wasn't ranked number six in law schools, I would still think it was at best an average school.

[Campagnolo]

Take Northwestern. Fuck. Why is this a question?

[Samara]

OP are there constraints on what you must do during this year off? In this hellish economy it seems silly for NU to expect you to find something that grants substantive experience when there are probably hundreds of other applicants (to any decent job) who aren't going to leave after just one year and who may have WE already.

I've always thought NorTTThwesTTTern's deferral practices were douchey tbh.

IMO, working any job full-time outside of school grants significant benefit in both professional and real world experience. NU clearly agrees. What is so douchey about that?

CLS 3L here.

1) My main options when I applied were NWestern at full tuition, with the stipulation that I work a year, CLS at 1/2 price, and NYU at 50K. The choice for CLS over NYU was obvious, but had the amounts been reversed (CLS 50, NYU 1/2) I would have taken NYU without hesitation. The bigger dilemma was NW at full vs. CLS half. I wrestled for quite some time, but in the end I figured that I would not be able to get a job making more than minimum wage for that year and so the extra year of biglaw salary (or whatever salary I could hope to earn after the 3-5 years in biglaw) would be more than the year's salary at min wage + the extra scholly money.

Now I'm an unemployed 3L and this is the one decision I made that just kills me inside. I regret taking the CLS offer and if I had the chance to do it again I would have taken NW. I can go into it in more detail if you want but this decision will probably haunt me for the rest of my career unless I magically luck into a decent job with two months to go in the year.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p5297243

Thanks for terrifying me this morning, Tiago. If this doesn't convince OP, I don't know what will.

[kennethellenparcell]

Holy shit, I wish I was in your position. If it was me, I would take NU in a heartbeat. The market is really bad right now and I'm pretty debt/risk averse. Also, imo work experience is always a good thing to have.

But NY also doesn't appeal to me that much. Sure, there are more market paying positions in NY but the COL is just astronomical.

[EdgarWinter]

IMO, working any job full-time outside of school grants significant benefit in both professional and real world experience. NU clearly agrees. What is so douchey about that?

I am sure that you are right about the value of WE in general, but I still think NU's approach is distasteful because in this economy the work a person in OP's position is likely to find is work of a menial nature (restaurant/poorly-paid office monkey or something) that will not grant him or her substantive professional skills. Rather, the WE most open to OP will be WE whose benefits are in the personal growth, not professional growth, category. NU is either out of touch with reality or knows this. So in effect, NU is telling OP that they need some personal growth. I would find that insulting if I was the OP.

The abrasive implication to NU's deferral policies is especially sharp since they do this to all/just about all k-jd folks who receive large scholarships. Apparently they just dislike 22 year-olds in general. I am sure that 22 year-olds are as a group not the most mature folks but that sort of profiling is unkind to individuals within that group who really do know what they're doing. So yes, NU is douchey imo.

[sunynp]

OP are there constraints on what you must do during this year off? In this hellish economy it seems silly for NU to expect you to find something that grants substantive experience when there are probably hundreds of other applicants (to any decent job) who aren't going to leave after just one year and who may have WE already.

I've always thought NorTTThwesTTTern's deferral practices were douchey tbh.

IMO, working any job full-time outside of school grants significant benefit in both professional and real world experience. NU clearly agrees. What is so douchey about that?

CLS 3L here.

1) My main options when I applied were NWestern at full tuition, with the stipulation that I work a year, CLS at 1/2 price, and NYU at 50K. The choice for CLS over NYU was obvious, but had the amounts been reversed (CLS 50, NYU 1/2) I would have taken NYU without hesitation. The bigger dilemma was NW at full vs. CLS half. I wrestled for quite some time, but in the end I figured that I would not be able to get a job making more than minimum wage for that year and so the extra year of biglaw salary (or whatever salary I could hope to earn after the 3-5 years in biglaw) would be more than the year's salary at min wage + the extra scholly money.

Now I'm an unemployed 3L and this is the one decision I made that just kills me inside. I regret taking the CLS offer and if I had the chance to do it again I would have taken NW. I can go into it in more detail if you want but this decision will probably haunt me for the rest of my career unless I magically luck into a decent job with two months to go in the year.

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 3#p5297243

Thanks for terrifying me this morning, Tiago. If this doesn't convince OP, I don't know what will.

I'm sorry for this 3L but this is what I am talking about. This person made the same calculation based on assuming biglaw that OP did. This person basically screwed themselves for no reason.

[sunynp]

IMO, working any job full-time outside of school grants significant benefit in both professional and real world experience. NU clearly agrees. What is so douchey about that?

I am sure that you are right about the value of WE in general, but I still think NU's approach is distasteful because in this economy the work a person in OP's position is likely to find is work of a menial nature (restaurant/poorly-paid office monkey or something) that will not grant him or her substantive professional skills. Rather, the WE most open to OP will be WE whose benefits are in the personal growth, not professional growth, category. NU is either out of touch with reality or knows this. So in effect, NU is telling OP that they need some personal growth. I would find that insulting if I was the OP.

The abrasive implication to NU's deferral policies is especially sharp since they do this to all/just about all k-jd folks who receive large scholarships. Apparently they just dislike 22 year-olds in general. I am sure that 22 year-olds are as a group not the most mature folks but that sort of profiling is unkind to individuals within that group who really do know what they're doing. So yes, NU is douchey imo.

I think part of this is NU just building their class for next year. I think that NU is trying to put students in a good place to succeed as well. An extra year off and work experience would probably benefit most 0Ls. People have to stop assuming how much they will be making as lawyers when they haven't even had a single grade, much less a single law school class.

[keg411]

IMO, working any job full-time outside of school grants significant benefit in both professional and real world experience. NU clearly agrees. What is so douchey about that?

I am sure that you are right about the value of WE in general, but I still think NU's approach is distasteful because in this economy the work a person in OP's position is likely to find is work of a menial nature (restaurant/poorly-paid office monkey or something) that will not grant him or her substantive professional skills. Rather, the WE most open to OP will be WE whose benefits are in the personal growth, not professional growth, category. NU is either out of touch with reality or knows this. So in effect, NU is telling OP that they need some personal growth. I would find that insulting if I was the OP.

The abrasive implication to NU's deferral policies is especially sharp since they do this to all/just about all k-jd folks who receive large scholarships. Apparently they just dislike 22 year-olds in general. I am sure that 22 year-olds are as a group not the most mature folks but that sort of profiling is unkind to individuals within that group who really do know what they're doing. So yes, NU is douchey imo.

I think part of this is NU just building their class for next year. I think that NU is trying to put students in a good place to succeed as well. An extra year off and work experience would probably benefit most 0Ls. People have to stop assuming how much they will be making as lawyers when they haven't even had a single grade, much less a single law school class.

+1. I'd guess there is a significantly higher % of people who went straight through that regret doing so then % of people who worked who regret not going straight through.

[Dany]

IMO, working any job full-time outside of school grants significant benefit in both professional and real world experience. NU clearly agrees. What is so douchey about that?

I am sure that you are right about the value of WE in general, but I still think NU's approach is distasteful because in this economy the work a person in OP's position is likely to find is work of a menial nature (restaurant/poorly-paid office monkey or something) that will not grant him or her substantive professional skills. Rather, the WE most open to OP will be WE whose benefits are in the personal growth, not professional growth, category. NU is either out of touch with reality or knows this. So in effect, NU is telling OP that they need some personal growth. I would find that insulting if I was the OP.

The abrasive implication to NU's deferral policies is especially sharp since they do this to all/just about all k-jd folks who receive large scholarships. Apparently they just dislike 22 year-olds in general. I am sure that 22 year-olds are as a group not the most mature folks but that sort of profiling is unkind to individuals within that group who really do know what they're doing. So yes, NU is douchey imo.

If someone is insulted by NU's offer (which would be as ridiculous as your random NU hate) they can, y'know, just not take the offer and attend a different school.

[EdgarWinter]

I think part of this is NU just building their class for next year. I think that NU is trying to put students in a good place to succeed as well. An extra year off and work experience would probably benefit most 0Ls. People have to stop assuming how much they will be making as lawyers when they haven't even had a single grade, much less a single law school class.

I dunno where you pulled up this " stop assuming how much they will be making..." canard.

I understand that NU may think it is doing its students a favor but that doesn't mean it isn't acting in a douchey manner.

NU is a producer of legal education. Its students are consumers. Now, if a fat guy walks into a McDonalds and orders a hamburger, the cashier is not going to tell him that he can only do so after deferring for a year of salad. That would, in fact, be in the fat guy's best interest. But that doesn't mean the action would be polite. It is possible to both pursue someone's best interest and to be douchey at the same time. The former doesn't excuse the latter. If you can't get this concept then I fear for your future as a lawyer.

[titan747]

I think part of this is NU just building their class for next year. I think that NU is trying to put students in a good place to succeed as well. An extra year off and work experience would probably benefit most 0Ls. People have to stop assuming how much they will be making as lawyers when they haven't even had a single grade, much less a single law school class.

I dunno where you pulled up this " stop assuming how much they will be making..." canard.

I understand that NU may think it is doing its students a favor but that doesn't mean it isn't acting in a douchey manner.

NU is a producer of legal education. Its students are consumers. Now, if a fat guy walks into a McDonalds and orders a hamburger, the cashier is not going to tell him that he can only do so after deferring for a year of salad. That would, in fact, be in the fat guy's best interest. But that doesn't mean the action would be polite. It is possible to both pursue someone's best interest and to be douchey at the same time. The former doesn't excuse the latter. If you can't get this concept then I fear for your future as a lawyer.

WTF... What does your Mcdonalds analogy have to do with anything...

[HarlandBassett]

The only reason NU has such great job placement numbers is because of the student body's impressive w.e. I might be mistaken, but a lot of ppl at NU used to be in finance, consulting, i-banking etc.

I wouldn't say that it's the only reason and while the first part is very plausible, I haven't seen any data to confirm that's the case. I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that there is a boost, but it is hard to quantify (as someone with shitty work experience I was concerned as well).

The second issue really isn't true. While there are more of those types at NU, they are definitely not the majority. There are tons of baristas and office lackeys here.

zactly. just read the NU "work experience" thread

[EdgarWinter]

OP I hope you don't take this little sideshow as meaning I think going to NW would be dumb. It sounds like a good call. I just think their adcomms are douches is all.

WTF... What does your Mcdonalds analogy have to do with anything...

Do you understand what paternalism is? Do you have some sort of affection for education that blinds you to the fact that educational institutions are nothing but economic actors and that no other economic actors would ever consider similarly paternalistic behavior appropriate? FFS if you don't get that analogy then I can't help you.

[Tiago Splitter]

Do you understand what paternalism is? Do you have some sort of affection for education that blinds you to the fact that educational institutions are nothing but economic actors and that no other economic actors would ever consider similarly paternalistic behavior appropriate? FFS if you don't get that analogy then I can't help you.

I'm not sure it's just paternalism though. They want to lock in some really strong applicants to get next year's cycle off to a good start. They also have found a niche as the T-14 for the "mature, experienced" student and like showing off how very little of their class comes straight from undergrad.

[sunynp]

I think part of this is NU just building their class for next year. I think that NU is trying to put students in a good place to succeed as well. An extra year off and work experience would probably benefit most 0Ls. People have to stop assuming how much they will be making as lawyers when they haven't even had a single grade, much less a single law school class.

I dunno where you pulled up this " stop assuming how much they will be making..." canard.

I understand that NU may think it is doing its students a favor but that doesn't mean it isn't acting in a douchey manner.

NU is a producer of legal education. Its students are consumers. Now, if a fat guy walks into a McDonalds and orders a hamburger, the cashier is not going to tell him that he can only do so after deferring for a year of salad. That would, in fact, be in the fat guy's best interest. But that doesn't mean the action would be polite. It is possible to both pursue someone's best interest and to be douchey at the same time. The former doesn't excuse the latter. If you can't get this concept then I fear for your future as a lawyer.

FYI - My point about "stop assuming how much you will be making" is based on the calculation in this thread that OP will be losing a year of a $160,000 salary. I feel this calculation is a mistake based on NYU's placement numbers. OP is equating lsat/gpa with median with a guaranteed biglaw salary.

I disagree with that assumption. I don't think that OP should assume that staying out of law school for a year is costing him 160,000.

[09042014]

At NU I figure I would most likely end up with a job in Chicago.

This is not true unless you chose to bid Chicago.

NU places better in NYC than it does Chicago ITE. Nobody gets stuck in Chicago who doesn't want to be in Chicago.

Do you know how NU does in CA? I think I saw somewhere it was ~11% but there's probably a lot of self-selection there. Do most ppl who want CA get CA?

It seems like they can. It's hard to tell though.

[09042014]

OP are there constraints on what you must do during this year off? In this hellish economy it seems silly for NU to expect you to find something that grants substantive experience when there are probably hundreds of other applicants (to any decent job) who aren't going to leave after just one year and who may have WE already.

I've always thought NorTTThwesTTTern's deferral practices were douchey tbh.

Nobody wants to go to school with K-JDers. They are the worst.

[titan747]

OP I hope you don't take this little sideshow as meaning I think going to NW would be dumb. It sounds like a good call. I just think their adcomms are douches is all.

WTF... What does your Mcdonalds analogy have to do with anything...

Do you understand what paternalism is? Do you have some sort of affection for education that blinds you to the fact that educational institutions are nothing but economic actors and that no other economic actors would ever consider similarly paternalistic behavior appropriate? FFS if you don't get that analogy then I can't help you.

It just seems as though Northwestern is trying to start their next cycle off with a bang while simultaneously rewarding the deferred students with full tuition scholarships... It sounds like an amazing deal to me... I wouldn't call it paternalism... they just gave you a 150k+ check to show they value you as a student...

[HarlandBassett]

Yea, strange I know, but they really like work experience and I have essentially none.

Is that why they are doing this "forced deferral?" (i.e. to get you to rack up one year of "work experience")

Someone explain this forced deferral thing to me. Is it only for applicants who get a full scholly from NU?

NU is essentially paying you over 100k for your year off (once you factor in not having to pay interest). That's more than the amount of money you'd get from biglaw after taxes.

I think this is an easy decision.

i read somewhere the aftertax amount was 118k.

[Dany]

Someone explain this forced deferral thing to me. Is it only for applicants who get a full scholly from NU?

Sometimes they do deferred full rides for applicants with no WE.

[HarlandBassett]

OP are there constraints on what you must do during this year off? In this hellish economy it seems silly for NU to expect you to find something that grants substantive experience when there are probably hundreds of other applicants (to any decent job) who aren't going to leave after just one year and who may have WE already.

I've always thought NorTTThwesTTTern's deferral practices were douchey tbh.

Nobody wants to go to school with K-JDers. They are the worst.

what's a K-JDer? contract attorneys?

[bk1]

i read somewhere the aftertax amount was 118k.

Paycheck calcs say around 100k for NYC. I was also lowballing the amount that NU was giving since I was factoring in the extra interest accumulated during school that would be saved but not the extra interest that would be saved due to a shorter repayment period (because that amount will vary based on how fast you repay).

[Samara]

OP are there constraints on what you must do during this year off? In this hellish economy it seems silly for NU to expect you to find something that grants substantive experience when there are probably hundreds of other applicants (to any decent job) who aren't going to leave after just one year and who may have WE already.

I've always thought NorTTThwesTTTern's deferral practices were douchey tbh.

Nobody wants to go to school with K-JDers. They are the worst.

what's a K-JDer? contract attorneys?

haha, good guess, but nope. It means someone who went straight through from HS to UG to law school and has thus never had any non-school experience. The K stands for kindergarten as a play off of K-12.

[kennethellenparcell]

IMO, working any job full-time outside of school grants significant benefit in both professional and real world experience. NU clearly agrees. What is so douchey about that?

I am sure that you are right about the value of WE in general, but I still think NU's approach is distasteful because in this economy the work a person in OP's position is likely to find is work of a menial nature (restaurant/poorly-paid office monkey or something) that will not grant him or her substantive professional skills. Rather, the WE most open to OP will be WE whose benefits are in the personal growth, not professional growth, category. NU is either out of touch with reality or knows this. So in effect, NU is telling OP that they need some personal growth. I would find that insulting if I was the OP.

The abrasive implication to NU's deferral policies is especially sharp since they do this to all/just about all k-jd folks who receive large scholarships. Apparently they just dislike 22 year-olds in general. I am sure that 22 year-olds are as a group not the most mature folks but that sort of profiling is unkind to individuals within that group who really do know what they're doing. So yes, NU is douchey imo.

I'm not quite following you here. First, I do not think that NU profiles against 22 year-olds. In fact, there are some TLSers under 22 who have gotten into NU this year. I agree that NU is saying that OP could benefit from some personal growth that would be conferred by work experience but I wouldn't call that douchey. We can agree to disagree because I actually think that NU is doing OP a favor. I've talked to a number of attorneys on the hiring committee at my firm and they would agree that candidates with work experience are preferred over candidates without work experience.

OP - as someone fresh out of college - do you know exactly why you want to go to law school and what you want to do with your degree? Most young grads think they want to go into biglaw and have a murky idea of what that means. If you do have a clear idea, I will shut my mouth and agree with EdgarWinter about your case only. Associates do the most menial work (doc review, discovery, etc) and according to my experience, the ones that feel entitled and sulky about the quality of work they are given are the first to leave. Pretty much everyone has to pay their dues to excel and working in a menial job helps one develop that mentality. I don't know how many 22 year olds know this. I certainly didn't at that age.

I think NU has offered OP a golden ticket. Whether OP's feelings about NYU outweigh the practical and economic benefits of NU's offer - well that's a personal decision I suppose.

And btw, OP I'm leaving my job in Chicago (paralegal job at a v100 firm working directly with an equity partner) so there may potentially be an opening there for you to apply to. Who knows, you might grow to love Chicago.