Wake vs. UF for international student Forum

[risingdragon]

Well, such a poll is not new but my background is different from you guys more or less

You guys may say:"Oh, yeah, go to the cheaper one." or "go to the state you want to practice." And then contacts, reputation, weather will all come into discussion. The problem is that I am a foreigner from China. I grew up in the south so adapt to hot days w/ seeing the snow ever. Really don't know how to pick for there are so limited data focusing on foreigners.

So wise TLSers, please help, help, help me. I have no way to check out any schools. Please put down your reasons after you vote.

Thanks a lot!

[AntipodeanPhil]

When you say you grew up in "the south," I'm assuming you mean the south of China.

I'm also assuming the scholarship amounts you list are three-year totals.

Honestly, unless you have ties to Florida or North Carolina, you shouldn't go to either of those schools. It will be extremely hard to get a job from either without ties, especially if you are not a US citizen / permanent resident.

Also, to get a job in the US practicing the law, you need perfect English. A number of employers have said this on the legal employment forum. Your post suggests that you're still having trouble with English.

If I had to pick one of those schools, though, I'd pick Florida, since it's the best school in its state, and I imagine the Florida job market might be a little easier for foreigners.

[risingdragon]

When you say you grew up in "the south," I'm assuming you mean the south of China.

I'm also assuming the scholarship amounts you list are three-year totals.

Honestly, unless you have ties to Florida or North Carolina, you shouldn't go to either of those schools. It will be extremely hard to get a job from either without ties, especially if you are not a US citizen / permanent resident.

Also, to get a job in the US practicing the law, you need perfect English. A number of employers have said this on the legal employment forum. Your post suggests that you're still having trouble with English.

If I had to pick one of those schools, though, I'd pick Florida, since it's the best school in its state, and I imagine the Florida job market might be a little easier for foreigners.

Thanks a lot for your thoughts. And I sense the difficulty I will face. To be honest, in China we need more ties to do anything. So the difficulty in the U.S may not be as much. At least that degree may bring me something, although not a lot. Plus, hope my English can improve.

Thank you again.

[josh43299]

Any thoughts on what kind of law you are interested in?

[risingdragon]

Any thoughts on what kind of law you are interested in?

Personally I prefer to Civil Law like contract or tort. Trade Law is good too. But I will any job to extend my visa.

[JD Janitor]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake (although I was admitted to UNC). Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

[josh43299]

Any thoughts on what kind of law you are interested in?

Personally I prefer to Civil Law like contract or tort. Trade Law is good too. But I will any job to extend my visa.

If you improve your English considerably, have a science background and focus on IP (patent attorney, not soft IP), it may help to mitigate some of the difficulties you will face with employment in these two states. Though I am not basing that on much real knowledge. It sounds like you want to stay in the US, but would there be a robust need back in China for citizens with an American J.D. just in case? Is it possible for you to consider studying law in China and pursuing an LL.M in the US instead? If you are going to make this work, I feel like you are think about, "Why would an employer want a citizen of China as an employee when there are tons of J.D.s out there to fill almost any position?" International Trade Law makes sense in that regard and neither of these schools will likely get you there unfortunately.

[bernaldiaz]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake. Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

The LSAT is a pretty nuanced test English language wise. If the OP outperformed you on the LSAT I think it's fair to say his English skills aren't too far behind yours if at all.

[JD Janitor]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake. Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

The LSAT is a pretty nuanced test English language wise. If the OP outperformed you on the LSAT I think it's fair to say his English skills aren't too far behind yours if at all.

I am willing to concede that the OP's English is fairly good considering his background. Having said that, it is typically far easier to read than it is to create. The LSAT requires you to read and understand what has been written. It does not require you to create gramatically correct documents. In Law school, you must create. As a contracts lawyer, there is no question that you must create.

The OP admits that his English is sub par and needs a good amount of work. To suggest that his English skill is close to mine is simply dishonest.

[josh43299]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake. Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

I sort of understand your frustration (re: numbers and only sort of), but their personal statement was likely written in better English than is represented here and was likely more interesting than 95% of the other applicants. I do however think that the numbers is pretty much all there is to law school admissions. I applied with a very unusual application and noticed nothing unusual about the decisions I received.

[JD Janitor]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake. Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

I sort of understand your frustration (re: numbers and only sort of), but their personal statement was likely written in better English than is represented here and was likely more interesting than 95% of the other applicants. I do however think that the numbers is pretty much all there is to law school admissions. I applied with a very unusual application and noticed nothing unusual about the decisions I received.

That is a very valid question. I scored 11 points lower than my average practice test score. I am currently trying to determine how I failed so miserably. I would not attribute the failure to a poor understanding of English. As I said earlier, it is far easier to read than it is to create. As far as his essay goes, we do not know its quality or even the amount of revision and editing it received.

My point is not to slam the OP. I just feel that the numbers, although very important, have become too central to a candidates application. The numbers should be there as well as other essentials. In my opinion, the individual with sub average numbers should be eliminated as well as the individual with sub par English skills.

[josh43299]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake. Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

The LSAT is a pretty nuanced test English language wise. If the OP outperformed you on the LSAT I think it's fair to say his English skills aren't too far behind yours if at all.

I am willing to concede that the OP's English is fairly good considering his background. Having said that, it is typically far easier to read than it is to create. The LSAT requires you to read and understand what has been written. It does not require you to create gramatically correct documents. In Law school, you must create. As a contracts lawyer, there is no question that you must create.

The OP admits that his English is sub par and needs a good amount of work. To suggest that his English skill is close to mine is simply dishonest.

Okay... then OP's reasoning skills are significantly better than yours with a language arm tied behind his back. Either way, you probably didn't deserve Wake over OP. Quit bitching and retake. Though law school will be incredibly frustrating for the OP, it is possible his language skills will improve sufficiently to practice in some areas of law (though I have concerns about his Tort and Contract law preferences).

[josh43299]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake. Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

I sort of understand your frustration (re: numbers and only sort of), but their personal statement was likely written in better English than is represented here and was likely more interesting than 95% of the other applicants. I do however think that the numbers is pretty much all there is to law school admissions. I applied with a very unusual application and noticed nothing unusual about the decisions I received.

That is a very valid question. I scored 11 points lower than my average practice test score. I am currently trying to determine how I failed so miserably. I would not attribute the failure to a poor understanding of English. As I said earlier, it is far easier to read than it is to create. As far as his essay goes, we do not know its quality or even the amount of revision and editing it received.

My point is not to slam the OP. I just feel that the numbers, although very important, have become too central to a candidates application. The numbers should be there as well as other essentials. In my opinion, the individual with sub average numbers should be eliminated as well as the individual with sub par English skills.

If that is the case, it would be foolish not to retake as you likely had anxiety during the test that is possible to overcome. Retake and next year you wont be so upset about the numbers game.

[JD Janitor]

Let me first say that I am very impressed with anyone who undertakes what the OP is attempting to do. I have also spent a year in China as an English language tutor and have a great appreciation for the hardships the Chinese people face in their country.

Is a mastery of the English language not necessary for the study of law? In my opinion, I think it is. Many cases have been won and lost over sentence structure and diction. It is personally frustrating for me to see an individual of any descent gain admission to a law school whom does not posses a very solid understanding of the English language. Have the "numbers" become such a central aspect of the decision process that other essential skills are now considered secondary or non-essential?

I am a native of NC and I was not admitted to Wake. Did I deserve to get in? I do not think I did considering my failure to adequately perform on the LSAT this time around. However, it is both frustrating and insulting to see someone else gain admission to Wake that is planning to use law school to learn basic English!

I am done venting. Thank you.

The LSAT is a pretty nuanced test English language wise. If the OP outperformed you on the LSAT I think it's fair to say his English skills aren't too far behind yours if at all.

I am willing to concede that the OP's English is fairly good considering his background. Having said that, it is typically far easier to read than it is to create. The LSAT requires you to read and understand what has been written. It does not require you to create gramatically correct documents. In Law school, you must create. As a contracts lawyer, there is no question that you must create.

The OP admits that his English is sub par and needs a good amount of work. To suggest that his English skill is close to mine is simply dishonest.

Okay... then OP's reasoning skills are significantly better than yours with a language arm tied behind his back. Either way, you probably didn't deserve Wake over OP. Quit bitching and retake. Though law school will be incredibly frustrating for the OP, it is possible his language skills will improve sufficiently to practice in some areas of law (though I have concerns about his Tort and Contract law preferences).

I am not "bitching". As I have said numerous times, I did not deserve to gain admission. See the above posts. I also do not doubt that his skills will improve. My point is that an applicant should be evaluated on what he has accomplished and what his current skill set is.

[josh43299]

The LSAT is a pretty nuanced test English language wise. If the OP outperformed you on the LSAT I think it's fair to say his English skills aren't too far behind yours if at all.

I am willing to concede that the OP's English is fairly good considering his background. Having said that, it is typically far easier to read than it is to create. The LSAT requires you to read and understand what has been written. It does not require you to create gramatically correct documents. In Law school, you must create. As a contracts lawyer, there is no question that you must create.

The OP admits that his English is sub par and needs a good amount of work. To suggest that his English skill is close to mine is simply dishonest.

Okay... then OP's reasoning skills are significantly better than yours with a language arm tied behind his back. Either way, you probably didn't deserve Wake over OP. Quit bitching and retake. Though law school will be incredibly frustrating for the OP, it is possible his language skills will improve sufficiently to practice in some areas of law (though I have concerns about his Tort and Contract law preferences).

I am not "bitching". As I have said numerous times, I did not deserve to gain admission. See the above posts. I also do not doubt that his skills will improve. My point is that an applicant should be evaluated on what he has accomplished and what his current skill set is.

Admissions has a very limited set on information about an applicant. It would be impossible for them to determine a lack of sufficient language knowledge from a personal statement and combined with a good LSAT, such doubts would reasonably be resolved in the OP's favor. Even if not for the gaming of US News, relying on a applicant's LSAT score to distinguish merely the intellectual capacity for law school is rational given the limited information about an applicant. Sounds like you have the potential to do really well on the LSAT though. I feel your pain, I went up 11 points on my second attempt (159 to 170), and remember the frustration with the application process. Give yourself another shot at the test, you will likely do much better your second time.

[bernaldiaz]

Admissions has a very limited set on information about an applicant. It would be impossible for them to determine a lack of sufficient language knowledge from a personal statement and combined with a good LSAT, such doubts would reasonably be resolved in the OP's favor. Even if not for the gaming of US News, relying on a applicant's LSAT score to distinguish merely the intellectual capacity for law school is rational given the limited information about an applicant. Sounds like you have the potential to do really well on the LSAT though. I feel your pain, I went up 11 points on my second attempt (159 to 170), and remember the frustration with the application process. Give yourself another shot at the test, you will likely do much better your second time.

Disagree with this. Like I said, I think the LSAT is a pretty difficult test, language wise, even for a native speaker. They try to make all the correct answers tortured as fuck and twist the language in the most unhelpful ways possible. If a non-native speaker can pull down a good LSAT score, I think it's a pretty good indicator that they have a pretty good grasp on the language. Conversely, I think given the difficulty of the language there is a huge barrier for a non-native speaker and it can easily "determine a lack of sufficient language knowledge".

[josh43299]

Admissions has a very limited set on information about an applicant. It would be impossible for them to determine a lack of sufficient language knowledge from a personal statement and combined with a good LSAT, such doubts would reasonably be resolved in the OP's favor. Even if not for the gaming of US News, relying on a applicant's LSAT score to distinguish merely the intellectual capacity for law school is rational given the limited information about an applicant. Sounds like you have the potential to do really well on the LSAT though. I feel your pain, I went up 11 points on my second attempt (159 to 170), and remember the frustration with the application process. Give yourself another shot at the test, you will likely do much better your second time.

Disagree with this. Like I said, I think the LSAT is a pretty difficult test, language wise, even for a native speaker. They try to make all the correct answers tortured as fuck and twist the language in the most unhelpful ways possible. If a non-native speaker can pull down a good LSAT score, I think it's a pretty good indicator that they have a pretty good grasp on the language. Conversely, I think given the difficulty of the language there is a huge barrier for a non-native speaker and it can easily "determine a lack of sufficient language knowledge".

I was saying that if there were doubts from the personal statement as to the language fluency, such doubts would be greatly diminished by a good LSAT score.

[risingdragon]

Wow, what a dialogue! My thread finally attracts some attention. Thanks to all!

To josh43299: thanks for your asking. Tort and Contract are just my preference. I will take any field avaliable to me. I do sense the difficulty of undertaking these two fields with my background. On the contrary, it is also very possible to go back to China, which is my back up. I have a bachelor in law in China already. With the J.D degree, I can be an international lawyer or a professor easily. The reason why I pick JD rather than LLM is that everybody know what the difference is. LLM is just to scan the menue but JD is to taste the dishes with your tongue. The trend is that LLM is devaluing and JD is more and more necessary. So why not take it when I still have time and money? Plus, I want to get at least some work experience in the US. That will help me a lot back home too. The best case is to stay in the US to experience another kind of life.

To JD Janitor: I do understand your feeling. Indeed, a student w/o sufficient language skills should be kicked out for s/he will turn out wasting of the time of his/herself and killing the reputation of the school. If you think Wake is a school not noticing this and still stupidly admitting me, it is not a school wise enough to derserve your attending. To be honest, since English is not your problem and LSAT is a very learnable test (since I could score high), work harder and retake and shoot for T14. I grew up in China and have never left her for any other English speaking countries. With the resource at hand, this English level and this LSAT score are the extreme I can reach NOW. In addition, it is really too easy for you to feel something unfair. Even if law schools only look at scores, that is much more fair than most of the other things in the admission process in China. I assume you know what I mean since you have been here before. All of my best foreign friends are super friendly Americans. I love them and want to have a look at your country as a result. I hope you at least do not hate China and come back to see us again.

Let's turn back to my poll. I forgot to say that $ from UF has a 2.8 stip while $ of Wake just requires good standing.

Thank you all.

[bernaldiaz]

Admissions has a very limited set on information about an applicant. It would be impossible for them to determine a lack of sufficient language knowledge from a personal statement and combined with a good LSAT, such doubts would reasonably be resolved in the OP's favor. Even if not for the gaming of US News, relying on a applicant's LSAT score to distinguish merely the intellectual capacity for law school is rational given the limited information about an applicant. Sounds like you have the potential to do really well on the LSAT though. I feel your pain, I went up 11 points on my second attempt (159 to 170), and remember the frustration with the application process. Give yourself another shot at the test, you will likely do much better your second time.

Disagree with this. Like I said, I think the LSAT is a pretty difficult test, language wise, even for a native speaker. They try to make all the correct answers tortured as fuck and twist the language in the most unhelpful ways possible. If a non-native speaker can pull down a good LSAT score, I think it's a pretty good indicator that they have a pretty good grasp on the language. Conversely, I think given the difficulty of the language there is a huge barrier for a non-native speaker and it can easily "determine a lack of sufficient language knowledge".

I was saying that if there were doubts from the personal statement as to the language fluency, such doubts would be greatly diminished by a good LSAT score.

My bad. Awful reading comprehension skills. Your point is a good one.

[littlepanda]

我觉得你应该先自己去看看每个地区，再选你更喜欢，更合适你想要的生活。
加油！

[Jah'rakal]

私はあなたが各エリアを見てみるべきだと思うし、あなたが望む生活に、より適切なほうを選択します。
さあ！

[risingdragon]

我觉得你应该先自己去看看每个地区，再选你更喜欢，更合适你想要的生活。
加油！

谢谢你的建议。在这里突然看到中文真的很亲切。不过，防止美国兄弟姐妹们鄙视我们抱团，还是英文吧！

Thanks for your advice. FL or NC for me are only different in the weather and the convience to go to a nice beach.

Your advice is pretty reasonable but I cannot go to the U.S until I determine which school to attend.

[risingdragon]

私はあなたが各エリアを見てみるべきだと思うし、あなたが望む生活に、より適切なほうを選択します。
さあ！

OMG, Japanese! I do not know a word... Sorry. I will ask my friend to translate it for me.

Japanese is way harder than Chinese...

Thanks for your reply anyway.

[Jah'rakal]

chinese or taiwanese? cause the two r obviously different cause they r two different countries

[risingdragon]

chinese or taiwanese? cause the two r obviously different cause they r two different countries

Whatever, no need to raise a patriotic debate here. But Chinese and Taiwanese as languages are not too different from each other. Not the point of this thread anyway.