NLJ250, Biglaw and Berkeley Forum

[jim-green]

The law.com NLJ250 website says Jones Day pays 145. Let me look for the exact URL again and post it here. I shut the site down.

Finally, I don't know where you heard Jones Day only pays 145. They pay 160. After the first year, though it's confidential compensation not lock-step like the others. Could be good for some, bad for others. But because the lock-step rates are so well advertised, I can't imagine they pay significantly below market even on the confidential program because they would have people running for the doors.

[bk1]

DUDE!!
If you wanna do prosecution, it does.not.matter where you go to law school.
nobody gives a s$it

take a full scholarship at Peoples College of Law. NOBODY CARES in the prosecution world.

You'll make 6 figures, steady lifestyle.

wut

[bk1]

The law.com NLJ250 website says Jones Day pays 145. Let me look for the exact URL again and post it here. I shut the site down.

Finally, I don't know where you heard Jones Day only pays 145. They pay 160. After the first year, though it's confidential compensation not lock-step like the others. Could be good for some, bad for others. But because the lock-step rates are so well advertised, I can't imagine they pay significantly below market even on the confidential program because they would have people running for the doors.

Well I'm sure they pay that in some place like Cleveland.

[jim-green]

Ah, thanks, I forgot 'offices in lower COL cities'.

Edit: Just took a look at nalpdirectory.com. It looks like some of the offices in lower COL cities (I looked at Pittsburgh) do pay 145. But in the major markets, NYC, DC, SF, etc. (even Texas, a notorious low COL area) they pay 160.

[Veyron]

They grade on an Honors/Pass system:
10% High Honors
30% Honors
Everybody else- Pass (with discretionary Substandard Passes thrown in)

Isn't this what HYS do as well. So HH=A, H=B, and P=C or so, right? Then firms can use that kind of a scale to calculate GPA, right? Or maybe HH=A, H=A-, and P=B+, etc.

Yes, but it doesn't hurt them as much since generic biglaw firms are willing to go much deeper into the class there. Many people will tell you, however, that even Harvard students were better off before.

[Rotor]

They grade on an Honors/Pass system:
10% High Honors
30% Honors
Everybody else- Pass (with discretionary Substandard Passes thrown in)

Isn't this what HYS do as well. So HH=A, H=B, and P=C or so, right? Then firms can use that kind of a scale to calculate GPA, right? Or maybe HH=A, H=A-, and P=B+, etc.

Yes, but it doesn't hurt them as much since generic biglaw firms are willing to go much deeper into the class there. Many people will tell you, however, that even Harvard students were better off before.

No doubt there are some downsides to the HH/H/P system. The odds of being above median in all your classes and ending up with a P is slim, but not insignificant. But there are positive effects that, in my mind, are worth those costs. Not having to fear the dreaded C- on a transcript is extremely reassuring and enables you to focus more to your strengths/interests so you can stand out with H and HHs. And if you do happen to be one of those folks who would be below median (I know, not a one of us thinks it will be us) you at least still have some shot without having the negative indications a traditional transcript would have.

[Real Madrid]

I am in at Berkeley, and WL at Chicago and NYU. Wondering if I should just go to Berkeley instead of trying to kill myself getting off the WL at Chicago or NYU by say, retaking the LSAT in June. A few questions.

1. What is the NLJ250? The website says it is 'The National Law Journal's annual survey of the nation’s largest law firms,' however is this Biglaw? One of the firms listed there is Jones Day, which offers $145K salary. However, Biglaw is supposed to offer $160K, so maybe all the firms in NLJ250 are not Biglaw or what I should aim for.

2. I ask this because a poster on TLS told me that instead of US news ranking, I should look at the NLJ250 go-to-schools ranking. On this ranking, Penn is #1 and Harvard is #4 (I guess because Harvard students do more clerkships). However, this ranking must be for more than Biglaw firms, because it says 45% of Berkeley grads got into NLJ250 firms. However, the Berkeley website says only 30% of Berkeley grads got into firms of >500 lawyers. So, the NLJ250 must be medium firms as well, right?

3. Is there a smaller list like NLJ20 that I should aim for? E.g., I am an Electrical Engineer, and I would work for only the top 10 companies (Intel, Apple, etc.,) Then maybe I should see what is Berkeley's rank on this smaller NLJ20 list.

4. I'm beginning to doubt the advice I am getting from some folks who say to go to Berkeley because of the IP jobs in the Bay Area. There are 5000 NLJ250 lawyers in the Bay Area, but 21000 NLJ250 lawyers in New York, so surely there must be more IP jobs in New York as well. DC has 13000 NLJ250 lawyers, so surely it must have more IP jobs than the Bay Area as well, right?

Thanks,
Jim

The Vault 100 is what you seek (although a small number of those firms pay under 160). The NLJ 250 does, as you seem to have guessed, include firms that would be considered "midlaw."

If I were you and I was set on BIGLAW, I'd try really hard to get into one of the other two schools. Berkeley has been doing pretty bad in that department lately because of the weakness of the CA market and the lack of a real grading system. That being said, the IP angle is going to give you a real leg up. The leading IP market is actually DC.

Totally wrong. Do you know anything about Boalt?

If you're talking about big law, the best we have to go on is NLJ numbers, even though they're two years behind. And in case you didn't notice, Berkeley actually outperformed Chicago and NYU in the latest hiring year. I realize one year does not a pattern make, but when 45+% of a school that already has a very heavy IP slant is placing into NLJ during the worst hiring year of the worst economy in decades, that's not exactly "pretty bad."

Also, I agree with Rotor that the grading system can actually be a good thing, as you can't really be below median - so, at worst, you still have a shot at landing a job.

[skers]

Do you have a good job right now that allows you to pay the needs of your family? If so, personally I would probably not go to law school (absent $$ in the t13)

Thanks, yes exactly, this is a big reason I am debating whether to go to law school at all. The tuition is not an issue. The opportunity cost is. And if my wife strikes out getting a good job, we'll be sunk.

Yeah, it's a tough question man. You will almost certainly do extremely well at OCI. Getting a job shouldn't really be your big worry. I'd be nervous about the prospects of paying back loans (220k plus interest at Berkeley) while also supporting a family. Those loans payments will certainly take a big chunk out of whatever increase you'd make in biglaw. It's obviously a personal decision man.

Did you get any $$ from NW? I'd assume they'd be throwing money at 6 years IP WE.

[skers]

I am in at Berkeley, and WL at Chicago and NYU. Wondering if I should just go to Berkeley instead of trying to kill myself getting off the WL at Chicago or NYU by say, retaking the LSAT in June. A few questions.

1. What is the NLJ250? The website says it is 'The National Law Journal's annual survey of the nation’s largest law firms,' however is this Biglaw? One of the firms listed there is Jones Day, which offers $145K salary. However, Biglaw is supposed to offer $160K, so maybe all the firms in NLJ250 are not Biglaw or what I should aim for.

2. I ask this because a poster on TLS told me that instead of US news ranking, I should look at the NLJ250 go-to-schools ranking. On this ranking, Penn is #1 and Harvard is #4 (I guess because Harvard students do more clerkships). However, this ranking must be for more than Biglaw firms, because it says 45% of Berkeley grads got into NLJ250 firms. However, the Berkeley website says only 30% of Berkeley grads got into firms of >500 lawyers. So, the NLJ250 must be medium firms as well, right?

3. Is there a smaller list like NLJ20 that I should aim for? E.g., I am an Electrical Engineer, and I would work for only the top 10 companies (Intel, Apple, etc.,) Then maybe I should see what is Berkeley's rank on this smaller NLJ20 list.

4. I'm beginning to doubt the advice I am getting from some folks who say to go to Berkeley because of the IP jobs in the Bay Area. There are 5000 NLJ250 lawyers in the Bay Area, but 21000 NLJ250 lawyers in New York, so surely there must be more IP jobs in New York as well. DC has 13000 NLJ250 lawyers, so surely it must have more IP jobs than the Bay Area as well, right?

Thanks,
Jim

The Vault 100 is what you seek (although a small number of those firms pay under 160). The NLJ 250 does, as you seem to have guessed, include firms that would be considered "midlaw."

If I were you and I was set on BIGLAW, I'd try really hard to get into one of the other two schools. Berkeley has been doing pretty bad in that department lately because of the weakness of the CA market and the lack of a real grading system. That being said, the IP angle is going to give you a real leg up. The leading IP market is actually DC.

Totally wrong. Do you know anything about Boalt?

If you're talking about big law, the best we have to go on is NLJ numbers, even though they're two years behind. And in case you didn't notice, Berkeley actually outperformed Chicago and NYU in the latest hiring year. I realize one year does not a pattern make, but when 45+% of a school that already has a very heavy IP slant is placing into NLJ during the worst hiring year of the worst economy in decades, that's not exactly "pretty bad."

Also, I agree with Rotor that the grading system can actually be a good thing, as you can't really be below median - so, at worst, you still have a shot at landing a job.

Missed this. We also have reports from several Boalt students doing OCI in 2010 that 30% got offers out of OCIP. NLJ250 is a solid informative tool, but doesn't tell the whole picture. I certainly wouldn't base current hiring trend conclusions data from a class that did OCI in 2009.

Not that that really affects OP as he's in a solid place either way.

[Veyron]

They grade on an Honors/Pass system:
10% High Honors
30% Honors
Everybody else- Pass (with discretionary Substandard Passes thrown in)

Isn't this what HYS do as well. So HH=A, H=B, and P=C or so, right? Then firms can use that kind of a scale to calculate GPA, right? Or maybe HH=A, H=A-, and P=B+, etc.

Yes, but it doesn't hurt them as much since generic biglaw firms are willing to go much deeper into the class there. Many people will tell you, however, that even Harvard students were better off before.

No doubt there are some downsides to the HH/H/P system. The odds of being above median in all your classes and ending up with a P is slim, but not insignificant. But there are positive effects that, in my mind, are worth those costs. Not having to fear the dreaded C- on a transcript is extremely reassuring and enables you to focus more to your strengths/interests so you can stand out with H and HHs. And if you do happen to be one of those folks who would be below median (I know, not a one of us thinks it will be us) you at least still have some shot without having the negative indications a traditional transcript would have.

Not to be nitpicky but there are consultants who study these things and they will tell you that the optimal grading system for a school ranked 4-10 w/r/t getting the maximum % of students in the class biglaw is a traditional grading system. See, the thing is, lots of biglaw firms are willing to hire in the top or middle or even slightly below middle of the class but they aren't willing to risk a bottom feeder. The problem with B's grading system is that it makes kids at median or better indistinguishable from a kid in the bottom 1/3. Therefore, many firms are unwilling to take the risk of hiring a kid with straight Ps where they might otherwise be willing to hire a kid at median.

/grade nerd rant.

[jim-green]

If you're talking about big law, the best we have to go on is NLJ numbers, even though they're two years behind. And in case you didn't notice, Berkeley actually outperformed Chicago and NYU in the latest hiring year. I realize one year does not a pattern make, but when 45+% of a school that already has a very heavy IP slant is placing into NLJ during the worst hiring year of the worst economy in decades, that's not exactly "pretty bad." Also, I agree with Rotor that the grading system can actually be a good thing, as you can't really be below median - so, at worst, you still have a shot at landing a job.

But does NLJ250 = Biglaw? As I said earlier, Berkeley's website shows 30% placed into >500 size firms and 45% placed into NLJ250. So NLJ250 is not >500 size firms. NYU's website shows 51% placed into >500 size firms.

[jim-green]

Yeah, it's a tough question man. You will almost certainly do extremely well at OCI. Getting a job shouldn't really be your big worry. I'd be nervous about the prospects of paying back loans (220k plus interest at Berkeley) while also supporting a family. Those loans payments will certainly take a big chunk out of whatever increase you'd make in biglaw. It's obviously a personal decision man. Did you get any $$ from NW? I'd assume they'd be throwing money at 6 years IP WE.

I did not apply to NW, maybe I should have. And my experience is research, not really IP. Though I do have 3 patents as an inventor (not as attorney).

[Rotor]

Not to be nitpicky but there are consultants who study these things and they will tell you that the optimal grading system for a school ranked 3-10 w/r/t getting the maximum % of students in the class biglaw is a traditional grading system. See, the thing is, lots of biglaw firms are willing to hire in the top or middle or even slightly below middle of the class but they aren't willing to risk a bottom feeder. The problem with B's grading system is that it makes kids at median or better indistinguishable from a kid in the bottom 1/3. Therefore, many firms are unwilling to take the risk of hiring a kid with straight Ps where they might otherwise be willing to hire a kid at median.

/grade nerd rant.

That was precisely why I said there were some downsides. The middle pays a price to shore up that lower third. But if nearly 50% of students are going to NLJ250 firms, even in the acknowledged worst year for hiring, firms by definition are pulling from around median-- even assuming zero PI, zero clerk, zero academic/fellowship placements, zero boutique firm hires, etc. etc. etc. Realistically, considering the many paths graduates take (or accounting for the above median student who sucks at bidding/is horrible at interviews, etc.) firms are likely dipping significantly below median even with our grading system.

I just think that the other benefits of the system make for a much more pleasant environment, which leads to less performance anxiety, which leads to better grades overall without the threat of a career killing C- (or worse).

[c3pO4]

People need to look at their individual circumstances when they read these charts and think about career options. A bio engineer with a PHD and 6 years of WE in biotech (including 3 patents) should choose Boalt over Chicago and NYU even if he HAS been accepted to the latter 2---in the case of a waitlist it's not even worth questioning. The OP will CLEAN UP with his resume and a JD from Boalt (the second best IP school in the nation) in regards to IP jobs. And I don't just mean in the California market either. There's really no point in going to NYU or Chicago for you. Honestly, unless you get into HYS (especially Stanford) you should go to Boalt.

+1. And really, if the choice is between HYS or substantial money at Berkeley/almost any T14, I'd go with the latter. OP's IP credentials paired with a T14 degree are going to destroy at OCI, and the extra debt for HYS (or CCN) probably isn't worth it.

+1 Go to Berkeley. Not only will you have offers from all the top firms (Wilson Sonsini, Cooley, Fenwick, etc.) but your wife will thank you.

Her prospects aren't just better in the Bay, they are astronomically better. You will be doing her a huge favor.

[skers]

Yeah, it's a tough question man. You will almost certainly do extremely well at OCI. Getting a job shouldn't really be your big worry. I'd be nervous about the prospects of paying back loans (220k plus interest at Berkeley) while also supporting a family. Those loans payments will certainly take a big chunk out of whatever increase you'd make in biglaw. It's obviously a personal decision man. Did you get any $$ from NW? I'd assume they'd be throwing money at 6 years IP WE.

I did not apply to NW, maybe I should have. And my experience is research, not really IP. Though I do have 3 patents as an inventor (not as attorney).

I guess what I should have said was experience in an ip related field. Your expertise would probably directly translate to IP placement as a fair number of people going into IP are doing so just based on their UG majors.

Yeah, Northwestern would likely throw a pile of money at you if previous cycles are any indication (depending on numbers too).

[jim-green]

I guess what I should have said was experience in an ip related field. Your expertise would probably directly translate to IP placement as a fair number of people going into IP are doing so just based on their UG majors. Yeah, Northwestern would likely throw a pile of money at you if previous cycles are any indication (depending on numbers too).

Are patent prosecutors paid less than patent litigators? Prosecution seems to be less glamorous and more looked down upon than litigation, so I fear it translates to less opportunities for career growth as well.

[eesana]

hey.. good for you! what was your LSAT score and GPA BTW?
I applied to Boalt but got rejected. I guess I applied really late.

[Real Madrid]

I am in at Berkeley, and WL at Chicago and NYU. Wondering if I should just go to Berkeley instead of trying to kill myself getting off the WL at Chicago or NYU by say, retaking the LSAT in June. A few questions.

1. What is the NLJ250? The website says it is 'The National Law Journal's annual survey of the nation’s largest law firms,' however is this Biglaw? One of the firms listed there is Jones Day, which offers $145K salary. However, Biglaw is supposed to offer $160K, so maybe all the firms in NLJ250 are not Biglaw or what I should aim for.

2. I ask this because a poster on TLS told me that instead of US news ranking, I should look at the NLJ250 go-to-schools ranking. On this ranking, Penn is #1 and Harvard is #4 (I guess because Harvard students do more clerkships). However, this ranking must be for more than Biglaw firms, because it says 45% of Berkeley grads got into NLJ250 firms. However, the Berkeley website says only 30% of Berkeley grads got into firms of >500 lawyers. So, the NLJ250 must be medium firms as well, right?

3. Is there a smaller list like NLJ20 that I should aim for? E.g., I am an Electrical Engineer, and I would work for only the top 10 companies (Intel, Apple, etc.,) Then maybe I should see what is Berkeley's rank on this smaller NLJ20 list.

4. I'm beginning to doubt the advice I am getting from some folks who say to go to Berkeley because of the IP jobs in the Bay Area. There are 5000 NLJ250 lawyers in the Bay Area, but 21000 NLJ250 lawyers in New York, so surely there must be more IP jobs in New York as well. DC has 13000 NLJ250 lawyers, so surely it must have more IP jobs than the Bay Area as well, right?

Thanks,
Jim

The Vault 100 is what you seek (although a small number of those firms pay under 160). The NLJ 250 does, as you seem to have guessed, include firms that would be considered "midlaw."

If I were you and I was set on BIGLAW, I'd try really hard to get into one of the other two schools. Berkeley has been doing pretty bad in that department lately because of the weakness of the CA market and the lack of a real grading system. That being said, the IP angle is going to give you a real leg up. The leading IP market is actually DC.

Totally wrong. Do you know anything about Boalt?

If you're talking about big law, the best we have to go on is NLJ numbers, even though they're two years behind. And in case you didn't notice, Berkeley actually outperformed Chicago and NYU in the latest hiring year. I realize one year does not a pattern make, but when 45+% of a school that already has a very heavy IP slant is placing into NLJ during the worst hiring year of the worst economy in decades, that's not exactly "pretty bad."

Also, I agree with Rotor that the grading system can actually be a good thing, as you can't really be below median - so, at worst, you still have a shot at landing a job.

Missed this. We also have reports from several Boalt students doing OCI in 2010 that 30% got offers out of OCIP. NLJ250 is a solid informative tool, but doesn't tell the whole picture. I certainly wouldn't base current hiring trend conclusions data from a class that did OCI in 2009.

Not that that really affects OP as he's in a solid place either way.

NLJ may not tell the whole picture, but it certainly gives us more accurate information than anecdotal, impossible-to-confirm forum posts. Also, there have been numerous "predictions" made in the past by students at various schools of the OCI performance at their schools that have been ridiculously inaccurate.

[jim-green]

Boalt admissions are not numbers based. They are a public school, so they have to admit half of the class from California residents, according to Dean Tom. Hence their LSATs are the lowest in the T14, yet their selectivity is ranked 3 overall, ahead of Harvard, Columbia, Chicago, NYU, etc. Only Yale and SLS are more selective.

hey.. good for you! what was your LSAT score and GPA BTW?
I applied to Boalt but got rejected. I guess I applied really late.

[mmk33]

how old r u? u interested in lit?
u said phd+6 years. Are you like 35?
i have a friend who started law school at a t14 at the old ass age of 38, and he was top 15%. he struck out OCI despite having an engineering phd.

might wanna look into patent prosecution, in which case you should just go to whatever law school you can get into with full scholly

I've been reading a lot about this (I'm a 0L, 30+ years old). The consensus is that being older cuts both ways. You are more mature, require less supervision, and are better with clients (you look the part more, and there is less questioning of your authority), but the downside is that you may not be able or want to work the crazy long hours, and you may run into problems being supervised by someone 5+ years younger than you. It probably depends firm to firm whether the plusses or minuses weigh more. Also it depends on the person. At the age of 38 some people can run a decent time for a 10K, have a full head of non-grey hair, and can interact well with people ten years younger; others are out of shape, balding, gray-haired, and may seem to obviously belong to an older generation. And then there are a ton of people in between.

[ahnhub]

As for grading, is Boalt's system that different from say, NYU's?

10% A
20% A-
25% B+
Everybody else B
(roughly)

The "pass" grade (B) is now just below median instead of just above it, and there are gradations of "Honors" (A through B+). And you get a GPA.

[jim-green]

This is all good information. I will dye my hair and wear my running shoes to OCI.

how old r u? u interested in lit?
u said phd+6 years. Are you like 35?
i have a friend who started law school at a t14 at the old ass age of 38, and he was top 15%. he struck out OCI despite having an engineering phd.

might wanna look into patent prosecution, in which case you should just go to whatever law school you can get into with full scholly

I've been reading a lot about this (I'm a 0L, 30+ years old). The consensus is that being older cuts both ways. You are more mature, require less supervision, and are better with clients (you look the part more, and there is less questioning of your authority), but the downside is that you may not be able or want to work the crazy long hours, and you may run into problems being supervised by someone 5+ years younger than you. It probably depends firm to firm whether the plusses or minuses weigh more. Also it depends on the person. At the age of 38 some people can run a decent time for a 10K, have a full head of non-grey hair, and can interact well with people ten years younger; others are out of shape, balding, gray-haired, and may seem to obviously belong to an older generation. And then there are a ton of people in between.

[r6_philly]

This is all good information. I will dye my hair and wear my running shoes to OCI.

Haha I cut my hair and shaved. Now look about 27. I think it helped.

[Dignan]

But does NLJ250 = Biglaw? As I said earlier, Berkeley's website shows 30% placed into >500 size firms and 45% placed into NLJ250. So NLJ250 is not >500 size firms. NYU's website shows 51% placed into >500 size firms.

Yes, many Boalties go to firms with fewer than 500 lawyers. But keep in mind that many of those smaller firms are very competitive, with bonuses and/or base salaries that exceed those of the larger firms. As of 2010, firms like Boies, Quinn, and Irell had fewer than 500 lawyers, but they offered better compensation than most of the >500 size firms. And there are several elite litigation boutiques in SF (e.g., Keker, Farella, Lieff Cabraser) that regularly hire Boalties. Although these firms have fewer than 100 lawyers, they are generally more prestigious than the larger law firms. Any Berkeley grad with a job at one of those firms could easily get multiple offers from >500 size firms.

[bk1]

But does NLJ250 = Biglaw? As I said earlier, Berkeley's website shows 30% placed into >500 size firms and 45% placed into NLJ250. So NLJ250 is not >500 size firms. NYU's website shows 51% placed into >500 size firms.

Yes, many Boalties go to firms with fewer than 500 lawyers. But keep in mind that many of those smaller firms are highly desirable places to work, with bonuses and/or base salaries that exceed those of the larger firms. As of 2010, firms like Boies, Quinn, and Irell had fewer than 500 lawyers, but they offered better compensation than most of the >500 size firms. And there are several elite litigation boutiques in SF (e.g., Keker, Farella, Lieff Cabraser) that regularly hire Boalties. Although these firms have fewer than 100 lawyers, they are generally more prestigious and competitive than the larger law firms. Any Berkeley grad with a job at one of those firms could easily get multiple offers from >500 size firms.

Additionally:

I think the 250th firm is around 170 attorneys. There are some NLJ250 firms that are more midlaw than biglaw (no real SA program, not on NALP, pay below market, etc). There are some boutiques that are biglaw (in that they pay market) but aren't NLJ250 (e.g. Keker as noted above). So while some NLJ250 firms aren't biglaw and some biglaw firms aren't NLJ250 firms, the NLJ250 are about as good a proxy as you're going to get.