NLJ 250 - Employment Data by School Forum

[dolfan0516]

So should I go to WVU over UGA?

EDIT- Just noticed just a flamer... move along, nothing to see here

[Trina Johnson]

So should I go to WVU over UGA?

EDIT- Just noticed just a flamer... move along, nothing to see here

???

[JusticeHarlan]

The mistake here is to conflate the general state of the economy with the state of the hiring market for graduates of ABA law schools. The two are related obviously, but it's far from a simple relationship. The hiring market for the lawyers has been shedding jobs for 20 years now. In 2011 the legal services employment market was completely flat, even though the economy as a whole added more than 1.5 million jobs.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... -2011.html

[Gail]

"We view [the summer program] as integral to the firm and to building and continuing our culture,” Grugan says. “But I don't think that we're going to go back to the time when we had 25 summer associates."

They say that now, sure.

Wait until business picks up and they need more young blood to bring in the cash.


Call me naive. I really don't think it's inherent to the legal profession. It's like during the best times of the economy people will think we're invulnerable to another depression and in a new age. No new age. Just another part of the cycle. Animal spirits will prevail. Being overly pessimistic is as profitable as being overly optimistic.

[thelawyler]

The drop in employment across the board is ridiculous.

2011 seems to have been an up year for USC.

[ocuviper]

I'm surprised Texas' numbers aren't stronger. What's up with that?

[dingbat]

I'm surprised Texas' numbers aren't stronger. What's up with that?

Um, because Texas is a regional school and its numbers are in line with other top regional schools
(see UCLA/USC, Vanderbilt, BU/BC, Fordham, GW; USC did relatively speaking very well this year, but then, there usually is one of those that does exceptionally well every year, like BC last year)

I don't know why you'd expect texas to do better. What's your rationalle?

[ocuviper]

No rationale. I'm just pretty new at interpreting all law school data. Thanks for the explanation.

[dingbat]

No rationale. I'm just pretty new at interpreting all law school data. Thanks for the explanation.

Generally, the T14 place at the top, while the following schools are in a second tranch:
Boston College
Boston University
Fordham
GW
U Texas
Vanderbilt
UCLA
USC
(Strong schools in big markets)
you have to realize, these are the largest firms, which means they're in the largest markets, and they predominantly tap the schools in those markets.


Some years strong schools in smaller regions (schools like Notre Dame, Howard, Indiana W&L and WUSTL) may also put up big numbers for NLJ250, but they're more likely to feed into the mid-size firms that have a strong presence in those mid-size markets
(which is not a bad thing - oftentimes these schools have better employment stats than the schools listed above, and the salary can be comparable)

There's a strong self-selecting process where people who want to work in a particular market tend to go to school in that region. It's easier for firms to go to schools in their own region because A) it's close; B) they usually already have ties to those schools; and C) students at schools in their regions tend to want to stay in those regions.

Even large chunks of the T-14 is not exempt from this - Columbia and NYU grads tend to stay in NY, GULC feeds into the DC market and Berkeley students tend to stay in northern California.

[skers]

No rationale. I'm just pretty new at interpreting all law school data. Thanks for the explanation.

Generally, the T14 place at the top, while the following schools are in a second tranch:
Boston College
Boston University
Fordham
GW
U Texas
Vanderbilt
UCLA
USC
(Strong schools in big markets)
you have to realize, these are the largest firms, which means they're in the largest markets, and they predominantly tap the schools in those markets.


Some years strong schools in smaller regions (schools like Notre Dame, Howard, Indiana W&L and WUSTL) may also put up big numbers for NLJ250, but they're more likely to feed into the mid-size firms that have a strong presence in those mid-size markets
(which is not a bad thing - oftentimes these schools have better employment stats than the schools listed above, and the salary can be comparable)

There's a strong self-selecting process where people who want to work in a particular market tend to go to school in that region. It's easier for firms to go to schools in their own region because A) it's close; B) they usually already have ties to those schools; and C) students at schools in their regions tend to want to stay in those regions.

Even large chunks of the T-14 is not exempt from this - Columbia and NYU grads tend to stay in NY, GULC feeds into the DC market and Berkeley students tend to stay in northern California.

I'm not sure what you mean by comparable. If you mean in the vicinity of 50k difference, then sure, but except for a small handful of boutiques most midsize firms aren't paying close to big law market. Hell, even big law firms in smaller regions (like H&H Denver) are a ways off NYC/Chicago/DC/SF/LA/Texas market (which isn't necessarily a bad thing given differences in COL).

Midlaw salaries are solid for someone coming from the schools you mention who are are not saddled with a ton of debt. Someone coming from WUSTL with a big scholarship and works mid law can have a great standard of living. Not so great a deal for someone paying sticker.

Do you have anything substantive proving that W&L, Indiana, and ND have better employment stats than Vandy, Texas, UCLA, and USC because that seems bullshitty.

ETA: It should also be noted that entry midlaw is usually extremely competitive as those firms usually only take on 1-2 SAs and one still needs great grades--top 25% or so--to nab a lot of those jobs.

[dingbat]

I will backtrack. I should have said some of those schools (regional) sometimes place better than some of the group above.
I just was trying to hedge myself, since on occasion these schools do a bit better (e.g. Notre Dame in 2009 or Howard in 2010), which happened to beat some of the schools that I placed in the second tranch.

The salaries at midsize firms are a bit lower, but then, the cost of living in midsize markets and cost of attendance at schools in midsize markets are lower, so this has a bit of a balancing effect
(making 30% less in an area that costs 30% less to live in is a wash)

As for the grades required in those midsize markets, this is somewhat comparable (with some latitude) to the grades needed at the schools I listed in the second tranch for getting into biglaw firms in biglaw markets.

While it's not directly comparable, I wouldn't be surprised if something similar could be true for someone paying in-state tuition at some of the states that only have 1 law school that's TTT, such as Wyoming or the Dakotas, where average salaries are low, but cost of living is also very low.
It's a matter of scale. I'd rather be making $90k in Florida than $160k in NYC

[rad lulz]

.

[skers]

I will backtrack. I should have said some of those schools (regional) sometimes place better than some of the group above.
I just was trying to hedge myself, since on occasion these schools do a bit better (e.g. Notre Dame in 2009 or Howard in 2010), which happened to beat some of the schools that I placed in the second tranch.

The salaries at midsize firms are a bit lower, but then, the cost of living in midsize markets and cost of attendance at schools in midsize markets are lower, so this has a bit of a balancing effect
(making 30% less in an area that costs 30% less to live in is a wash)

As for the grades required in those midsize markets, this is somewhat comparable (with some latitude) to the grades needed at the schools I listed in the second tranch for getting into biglaw firms in biglaw markets.

While it's not directly comparable, I wouldn't be surprised if something similar could be true for someone paying in-state tuition at some of the states that only have 1 law school that's TTT, such as Wyoming or the Dakotas, where average salaries are low, but cost of living is also very low.
It's a matter of scale. I'd rather be making $90k in Florida than $160k in NYC

What criteria are you using for "do a bit better" because of you're using NLJ250 (which would be kind of lulzy since your initial premise was distinguishing mid-law placement success from big law placement success) I don't see that holding up for Howard or ND in the years you are offering, unless we're using different data.

Also, your tranches are pretty shitty ways of sorting these schools. I can't think of many people that would put UCLA/USC/Texas/Vandy in the same group as Fordham and GW (so this looks like the rarely captured in the wilds of TLS Fordham-GW trolling), especially since if you're trying to distinguish things based on mid-law Vandy probably owns most of the Southern midlaw market.

I get what you're saying about COL differences (though your COA bit doesn't really add up as Texas, BU, and BC have projected lower COA than WUSTL or ND). Like I said earlier, mid law--if one can get it--is a great option, but it's only really viable for those with big scholarships. Otherwise debtfucked anyway.

[rad lulz]

.

[sunynp]

So should I go to WVU over UGA?

I think the WVU students in biglaw are people who are doing career associate work for bigfirms that have offices in West Viriginia. I don't think those students are typical bigfirm associates. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

[smokeylarue]

As someone who is very seriously considering NYU, can someone explain to me the NYU T-6 advantage because these numbers of the last 3 years seems to show no advantage compared to a lot of the lower T-14.

[rad lulz]

.

[kaiser]

As someone who is very seriously considering NYU, can someone explain to me the NYU T-6 advantage because these numbers of the last 3 years seems to show no advantage compared to a lot of the lower T-14.

1. They tend to place a larger number of students in public interest than a number of peer schools.

2. Since these numbers are from 2009, I'd imagine many of the schools in the NYC area will have risen closer to the top. If they were to publish the numbers for class of 2013 (who just did OCI in 2011), you would likely see schools like Columbia, NYU, Penn, Cornell, etc. close to the top. And this is even more likely due to the difficulty of markets like Chicago, DC (where schools like Michigan, Duke, etc. place a number of their students). For awhile, every market was hurting, so numbers seemed to flatten out, but more recent figures will reflect the rate at which certain markets recover, and it is well known that NYC has by far had the most recovery. So there would seem to be a strong benefit in going to an NYC-based top school now, whether it be Columbia, NYU, Penn, or even Cornell.

[AntipodeanPhil]

So should I go to WVU over UGA?

I think the WVU students in biglaw are people who are doing career associate work for bigfirms that have offices in West Viriginia. I don't think those students are typical bigfirm associates. Someone please correct me if I am mistaken.

So the person who posted that turned out to be a flame. He/she started posting gay porn an hour or two later.

But that's an interesting question anyway. Does anyone know whether these NLJ 250 numbers include "career associates?" Obviously they don't include doc review work. We probably all read the article a while back about the big law firm (I forget which) that started a career associate farm in WV. The numbers might be a little inflated - from the perspective of working out big law numbers - if they include career associates.

[smokeylarue]

Thanks for the answers.

[IAFG]

"We view [the summer program] as integral to the firm and to building and continuing our culture,” Grugan says. “But I don't think that we're going to go back to the time when we had 25 summer associates."

They say that now, sure.

Wait until business picks up and they need more young blood to bring in the cash.


Call me naive. I really don't think it's inherent to the legal profession. It's like during the best times of the economy people will think we're invulnerable to another depression and in a new age. No new age. Just another part of the cycle. Animal spirits will prevail. Being overly pessimistic is as profitable as being overly optimistic.

I read that quote very differently. I think we are just seeing less emphasis on the summer program; that firm may still end up with 25 first years, but only 10 summers, hire 10 3Ls who had no SA and maybe poach another 5 from other firms. If this would work in practice, I don't know, but I do think it is a model firms would like to move towards, so they can project hiring needs more effectively.

[Gail]

I read that quote very differently. I think we are just seeing less emphasis on the summer program; that firm may still end up with 25 first years, but only 10 summers, hire 10 3Ls who had no SA and maybe poach another 5 from other firms. If this would work in practice, I don't know, but I do think it is a model firms would like to move towards, so they can project hiring needs more effectively.

Hm. I can see that now.

[skers]

As someone who is very seriously considering NYU, can someone explain to me the NYU T-6 advantage because these numbers of the last 3 years seems to show no advantage compared to a lot of the lower T-14.

NLJ250 data is great, but it doesn't tell the whole picture. There's probably some difference in the type of firm jobs a lot of kids are getting at NYU compared with what kids are getting at Duke or UVA. I'd guess that a higher percentage of people at NYU are getting v100 jobs than Duke, UVA, or Michigan, whether or not that makes NYU better is up to your individual career goals.

[shoeshine]

As someone who is very seriously considering NYU, can someone explain to me the NYU T-6 advantage because these numbers of the last 3 years seems to show no advantage compared to a lot of the lower T-14.

PI bias

Yeah but you could say the same thing for Berkeley. I don't think the PI answer explains these numbers.

[smokeylarue]

Yeah, poor economy or not, its definitely interesting to me that Cornell, Northwestern, UVA, Berkeley and Penn seem to be doing than NYU in the last few years when TLS wisdom always talks T6 puts you in better shape, etc etc. Then again, I heard NYU killed it last OCI, would be nice to have the most recent results instead of looking at 2 year old data, but I guess this is what we have to go with.