UVA or Duke? Forum

envisciguy · Post by **envisciguy** » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:55 pm

Hey guys, I was hoping I could get some opinions here. I'm trying to decide between UVA and Duke with roughly the same amount of scholarship $. Thinking Biglaw in the south right now, but obviously I'm not 100% sure of that as a 0L.

Both are pretty similar in terms of placement/prestige, weather, and price so it's a really tough decision for me.

One of the things I really like about UVA is that LRW isn't graded and that you can take 2 elective courses in your second semester, but Duke has a slightly lower COL and a smaller class size. Any advice/opinions are appreciated! Thanks.

AntipodeanPhil · Post by **AntipodeanPhil** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:34 am

Factors that favor UVA:

1. The employment data is slightly better.

For 2010, almost identical percentages at each school joined law firms (61.3% vs 61.4%), but a significantly higher proportion at UVA ended up in large (250+) firms. The numbers (taken from their 2010 employment data pages) are:

Duke: 66.2%
UVA: 78.7%

2. I also have a theory that, since UVA has to take 40% VA residents, it's going to be slightly easier to do well at UVA. I think that's why UVA's 25th percentile numbers are a little worse than Duke's.

Factors that favor Duke:

1. Smaller class size.

2. If your ties to to the South are weak, I suspect that attending Duke would better illustrate your desire to stay in the area, as well as better allowing you to network in NC.

envisciguy · Post by **envisciguy** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:47 am

Thanks for the stats, they're definitely helpful. As far as ties go, I'm from a southern state, so that hopefully wouldn't be too much of a problem.

Hjones33 · Post by **Hjones33** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:52 am

AntipodeanPhil wrote:Factors that favor UVA:

1. The employment data is slightly better.

For 2010, almost identical percentages at each school joined law firms (61.3% vs 61.4%), but a significantly higher proportion at UVA ended up in large (250+) firms. The numbers (taken from their 2010 employment data pages) are:

Duke: 66.2%
UVA: 78.7%

2. I also have a theory that, since UVA has to take 40% VA residents, it's going to be slightly easier to do well at UVA. I think that's why UVA's 25th percentile numbers are a little worse than Duke's.

Factors that favor Duke:

1. Smaller class size.

2. If your ties to to the South are weak, I suspect that attending Duke would better illustrate your desire to stay in the area, as well as better allowing you to network in NC.

Why would Duke help you more so than Virginia? Duke is known for having a lot of "yankees" and correct me if I am wrong if someone has more knowledge about this topic but Virginia is considered much more "Southern" than Duke.

AntipodeanPhil · Post by **AntipodeanPhil** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:18 am

Hjones33 wrote:Why would Duke help you more so than Virginia? Duke is known for having a lot of "yankees" and correct me if I am wrong if someone has more knowledge about this topic but Virginia is considered much more "Southern" than Duke.

Yeah, I've heard that - although I hear that said more often about Emory.

But both schools place almost exactly the same percentage of students in the South. I think the argument from Duke is more convincing simply because of it's location (sure, UVA is in the South, but only barely). I don't really know what I'm talking about on that point, though

. I live in the South, but I don't know any Southern lawyers.

smokeylarue · Post by **smokeylarue** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:18 am

Pretty much peers that will give you similar shot at Big Law. Visit both, see which one you like better, profit.

quakeroats · Post by **quakeroats** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:21 am

AntipodeanPhil wrote:Factors that favor UVA:

1. The employment data is slightly better.

For 2010, almost identical percentages at each school joined law firms (61.3% vs 61.4%), but a significantly higher proportion at UVA ended up in large (250+) firms. The numbers (taken from their 2010 employment data pages) are:

Duke: 66.2%
UVA: 78.7%

2. I also have a theory that, since UVA has to take 40% VA residents, it's going to be slightly easier to do well at UVA. I think that's why UVA's 25th percentile numbers are a little worse than Duke's.

Factors that favor Duke:

1. Smaller class size.

2. If your ties to to the South are weak, I suspect that attending Duke would better illustrate your desire to stay in the area, as well as better allowing you to network in NC.

I've made the case before that Duke's employment data is better for New York (I don't know where the prior poster got 78.7% as I don't see it on UVA's site). I won't rehash it here, check my prior posts if you're interested. Our class size is almost half of UVA's, and we don't release class medians. Both of these have really helped placement ITE. Don't worry about legal writing. It's only one class and the weighting is lower than all your other first year classes. Plus, assignments are due over a month and a half before the semester ends. From what I understand, they're due during or near exams at UVA. As for quality of life, Charlottesville is in the middle of nowhere. Durham is in the middle of the Triangle which has around 3 million people and a 30% growth rate every ten years for the last few decades.

AntipodeanPhil · Post by **AntipodeanPhil** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:26 am

quakeroats wrote:I've made the case before that Duke's employment data is better for New York (I don't know where the prior poster got 78.7% as I don't see it on UVA's site). I won't rehash it here, check my prior posts if you're interested. Our class size is almost half of UVA's, and we don't release class medians. Both of these have really helped placement ITE. As for quality of life, Charlottesville is in the middle of nowhere. Durham is in the middle of the Triangle which has around 3 million people and a 30% growth rate every ten years for the last few decades.

78.7% (63.1% + 15.6%) of those employed in law firms ended up at firms with 250+ lawyers, if you look at:
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

Also, I looked through the last few pages of your posts for the case you made about Duke and NYC, but couldn't find it. Could you point us in the right direction? I'd appreciate it - I'm seriously considering both also.

quakeroats · Post by **quakeroats** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:40 am

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
quakeroats wrote:I've made the case before that Duke's employment data is better for New York (I don't know where the prior poster got 78.7% as I don't see it on UVA's site). I won't rehash it here, check my prior posts if you're interested. Our class size is almost half of UVA's, and we don't release class medians. Both of these have really helped placement ITE. As for quality of life, Charlottesville is in the middle of nowhere. Durham is in the middle of the Triangle which has around 3 million people and a 30% growth rate every ten years for the last few decades.
78.7% (63.1% + 15.6%) of those employed in law firms ended up at firms with 250+ lawyers, if you look at:
http://www.law.virginia.edu/html/career/stats.htm

Also, I looked through the last few pages of your posts for the case you made about Duke and NYC, but couldn't find it. Could you point us in the right direction? I'd appreciate it - I'm seriously considering both also.

It's several hundred posts ago. Which is the reason I'm not finding it.

AntipodeanPhil · Post by **AntipodeanPhil** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:00 am

quakeroats wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Also, I looked through the last few pages of your posts for the case you made about Duke and NYC, but couldn't find it. Could you point us in the right direction? I'd appreciate it - I'm seriously considering both also.
It's several hundred posts ago. Which is the reason I'm not finding it.

Is this it (23 pages back) - contained in a Duke vs Michigan thread?

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 4#p4451644

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:04 am

The placement is essentially identical. I hate the idea of pre-selects so I would go with Duke.

rad lulz · Post by **rad lulz** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:05 am

dixon02 · Post by **dixon02** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:16 am

quakeroats wrote:
AntipodeanPhil wrote:Factors that favor UVA:

1. The employment data is slightly better.

For 2010, almost identical percentages at each school joined law firms (61.3% vs 61.4%), but a significantly higher proportion at UVA ended up in large (250+) firms. The numbers (taken from their 2010 employment data pages) are:

Duke: 66.2%
UVA: 78.7%

2. I also have a theory that, since UVA has to take 40% VA residents, it's going to be slightly easier to do well at UVA. I think that's why UVA's 25th percentile numbers are a little worse than Duke's.

Factors that favor Duke:

1. Smaller class size.

2. If your ties to to the South are weak, I suspect that attending Duke would better illustrate your desire to stay in the area, as well as better allowing you to network in NC.
I've made the case before that Duke's employment data is better for New York (I don't know where the prior poster got 78.7% as I don't see it on UVA's site). I won't rehash it here, check my prior posts if you're interested. Our class size is almost half of UVA's, and we don't release class medians. Both of these have really helped placement ITE. Don't worry about legal writing. It's only one class and the weighting is lower than all your other first year classes. Plus, assignments are due over a month and a half before the semester ends. From what I understand, they're due during or near exams at UVA. As for quality of life, Charlottesville is in the middle of nowhere. Durham is in the middle of the Triangle which has around 3 million people and a 30% growth rate every ten years for the last few decades.

I don't remember exactly when it was due, but it was certainly not during exams and not close enough to be any significant impediment. I think it was around the time most people were beginning to outline. Not that big a deal (in general, due date of LRW assignment should be about the one millionth thing on your list when choosing a law school).

As for Charlottesville, it's not exactly a metropolis, but middle of nowhere is an odd description. The city itself has 50,000 people and the greater area has twice that. It's a college town and has everything one would expect to find a city of its size....big chain stores, movie theaters, bars galore, and a really nice downtown area with great restaurants. It's certainly a much nicer place to live and be than Durham. Unless you're interested in the Charlotte market, I don't think the schools' locations should play a big role, other than your comfort level with each after visiting.

FattyMcFatFat · Post by **FattyMcFatFat** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 3:29 am

As someone who has lived in both the triangle and Charlottesville, as well as New York and the Midwest, I will say without hestitation that Charlotteville is my favorite of all of the places I've lived. Additionally, it is IMPERATIVE that all of you that haven't been around this board for very long understand that Quakeroats is a Duke-trolling POS. It's disgusting really. This guy actually wants you to pretend (like he seems to) that UVA (or any other T10) is not clearly superior to Duke over the long run in every material way. Bitch please.

P.S. I'm bored so I'm on the internet. Any responses to this post will probably not attract my attention. At least not for another month or two. Have a nice day. That is all.

IAFG · Post by **IAFG** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 4:53 am

FattyMcFatFat wrote:As someone who has lived in both the triangle and Charlottesville, as well as New York and the Midwest, I will say without hestitation that Charlotteville is my favorite of all of the places I've lived. Additionally, it is IMPERATIVE that all of you that haven't been around this board for very long understand that Quakeroats is a Duke-trolling POS. It's disgusting really. This guy actually wants you to pretend (like he seems to) that UVA (or any other T10) is not clearly superior to Duke over the long run in every material way. Bitch please.

P.S. I'm bored so I'm on the internet. Any responses to this post will probably not attract my attention. At least not for another month or two. Have a nice day. That is all.

Ahh. That's better.

bobbyh1919 · Post by **bobbyh1919** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:18 am

Can someone just briefly explain what happened at UVA with this whole pre-select thing. I'm considering both these schools actually and have heard this concern numerous times in the past.

thatkid · Post by **thatkid** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:28 am

bobbyh1919 wrote:Can someone just briefly explain what happened at UVA with this whole pre-select thing. I'm considering both these schools actually and have heard this concern numerous times in the past.

It seems like *most* of the drama occurred because the pre-select results came out on a rolling basis, so there were points where people were freaking out because they didn't have any interviews showing up. It seems like by the end, everything was okay. I could be very wrong though, this is just the impression that I took away from the relevant thread. If there was more horror than this involved, someone please enlighten me.

envisciguy · Post by **envisciguy** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:04 pm

Sorry, but can anyone explain what preselects are? I'm obviously not a veteran of these boards and I'm a little confused. As far as the cities go, I've visited both Durham and Charlottesville and like different things about both of them, that's why this is so difficult.

AntipodeanPhil · Post by **AntipodeanPhil** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:25 pm

envisciguy wrote:Sorry, but can anyone explain what preselects are? I'm obviously not a veteran of these boards and I'm a little confused. As far as the cities go, I've visited both Durham and Charlottesville and like different things about both of them, that's why this is so difficult.

--LinkRemoved--

TL;DR version: at UVA employers get to pick ("preselect") who they would like to interview at OCI, with various qualifications and complications. At other places, it is a pure lottery.

SnowDude · Post by **SnowDude** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:52 pm

AntipodeanPhil wrote:
envisciguy wrote:Sorry, but can anyone explain what preselects are? I'm obviously not a veteran of these boards and I'm a little confused. As far as the cities go, I've visited both Durham and Charlottesville and like different things about both of them, that's why this is so difficult.
--LinkRemoved--

TL;DR version: at UVA employers get to pick ("preselect") who they would like to interview at OCI, with various qualifications and complications. At other places, it is a pure lottery.

Are you serious? That sounds awful.

As if one needed even more pressure to be in the top 25% of one's class.

barneytrouble · Post by **barneytrouble** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:58 pm

Preselects only account for a portion of OGI interviews. There is also a lottery component.

OP: if you think DC is something you might want then go to UVA. Apart from that there are no real differences between the two as far as i can tell. Also UVA has ungraded LRW!

dixiecupdrinking · Post by **dixiecupdrinking** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:04 pm

I dunno, as a veteran of a lottery-system OCI, I don't think pre-screens would have been that bad. The OCI interview is basically a pre-screening interview itself. Except you and some attorney have to make small talk for 20 minutes before they accept/reject you for a callback on the basis of your transcript and resume. Might as well let them make that decision ahead of time.

quakeroats · Post by **quakeroats** » Sat Feb 25, 2012 1:22 pm

FattyMcFatFat wrote:As someone who has lived in both the triangle and Charlottesville, as well as New York and the Midwest, I will say without hestitation that Charlotteville is my favorite of all of the places I've lived. Additionally, it is IMPERATIVE that all of you that haven't been around this board for very long understand that Quakeroats is a Duke-trolling POS. It's disgusting really. This guy actually wants you to pretend (like he seems to) that UVA (or any other T10) is not clearly superior to Duke over the long run in every material way. Bitch please.

P.S. I'm bored so I'm on the internet. Any responses to this post will probably not attract my attention. At least not for another month or two. Have a nice day. That is all.

This post works as a good model of the UVA stereotype. Talking in absolutes without qualification, certain of his own correctness, no real evidence and still a hard conclusion, broish, ad hominem, etc. Not everyone at UVA is like this, but it's a contingent.

UtilityMonster · Post by **UtilityMonster** » Sun Feb 26, 2012 2:01 am

Duke is obviously superior. I need not explain why. If you don't get it, you don't deserve Duke.

envisciguy · Post by **envisciguy** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 12:04 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:Duke is obviously superior. I need not explain why. If you don't get it, you don't deserve Duke.

This is obviously a joke...right?

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