Am I reading this correctly? Forum

[sunynp]

Im sure you are sooooo much more informed than the multiple JD's and Judges I know personally and got most of my information from. Definitely...

Burnsy you were sort of hangin in there until you fired off this gem.

I've been an intern for a judge at a court house for over a year... i didnt just pull that out of my ass lol

I think you must be right. What do students who have been through OCI the past two years know about the job market? I'm sure a judge who hasn't had to look for employment in the past few years must know more. Please listen to his/her advice.

Be sure to ask them what they think the current cost of attending law school is, it would be interesting to see how close they are to reality.

[romothesavior]

Im sure you are sooooo much more informed than the multiple JD's and Judges I know personally and got most of my information from. Definitely...

Burnsy you were sort of hangin in there until you fired off this gem.

I've been an intern for a judge at a court house for over a year... i didnt just pull that out of my ass lol

I can hardly think of a person in the legal industry less qualified to speak on the current legal market than a judge. Most have been out of law school for decades and are so preoccupied with their work (and rightfully so) that they are very detached from the hiring market.

[benburns214]

I started posting on here just to point out that LST isnt always accurate... and somewhere along the way a shit-storm rolled in.

I've completely lost all interest in this anyway. I'm washing my hands of this discussion. Believe or dont believe anything you want to, no skin off my back.

I love you all,
Bburns

[romothesavior]

Did you not see my first post ITT? I agree that LST isn't the best. A lot of us do. But some of your other comments in here were off base, and people called you on it. That's really all that happened here. No need to get all snippy.

[benburns214]

Did you not see my first post ITT? I agree that LST isn't the best. A lot of us do. But some of your other comments in here were off base, and people called you on it. That's really all that happened here. No need to get all snippy.

Ahhh THATS where the shit-storm arrived from. My comments were not off base... not a single one. If we can be frank, TLS is stuck in the 2008 mind-frame, and you are clearly a product of that era. Its not your fault. Every single piece of information I have been given about the legal profession and the legal market was given to me by smarter individuals than us. Sure, you can call me out on it if what you believe to be true is contrary to my beliefs, you are entitled to do so. But with all due respect to you, Im going to take the advice of the people I trust.

Dammit i said I was done posting... stop enticing me to come back here and defend myself, you snake in the grass

[Guchster]

I started posting on here just to point out that LST isnt always accurate AND THEN I STARTED TO MAKE OFF BASE COMMENTS THAT WERE STRANGE, FACTUALLY INCORRECT, AND OFF-BASE ... and somewhere along the way a shit-storm rolled in.

I've completely lost all interest in this anyway. I'm washing my hands of this discussion. Believe or dont believe anything you want to, no skin off my back.

I love you all,
Bburns

FTFY.

[Nelson]

Did you not see my first post ITT? I agree that LST isn't the best. A lot of us do. But some of your other comments in here were off base, and people called you on it. That's really all that happened here. No need to get all snippy.

Ahhh THATS where the shit-storm arrived from. My comments were not off base... not a single one. If we can be frank, TLS is stuck in the 2008 mind-frame, and you are clearly a product of that era. Its not your fault. Every single piece of information I have been given about the legal profession and the legal market was given to me by smarter individuals than us. Sure, you can call me out on it if what you believe to be true is contrary to my beliefs, you are entitled to do so. But with all do respect to you, Im going to take the advice of the people I trust.

Dammit i said I was done posting... stop enticing me to come back here and defend myself, you snake in the grass

You are my favorite delusional Choosing a Law School poster since IceIceBaby.

[benburns214]

I started posting on here just to point out that LST isnt always accurate AND THEN I STARTED TO MAKE OFF BASE COMMENTS THAT WERE STRANGE, FACTUALLY INCORRECT, AND OFF-BASE ... and somewhere along the way a shit-storm rolled in.

I've completely lost all interest in this anyway. I'm washing my hands of this discussion. Believe or dont believe anything you want to, no skin off my back.

I love you all,
Bburns

FTFY.

See above.

[benburns214]

Did you not see my first post ITT? I agree that LST isn't the best. A lot of us do. But some of your other comments in here were off base, and people called you on it. That's really all that happened here. No need to get all snippy.

Ahhh THATS where the shit-storm arrived from. My comments were not off base... not a single one. If we can be frank, TLS is stuck in the 2008 mind-frame, and you are clearly a product of that era. Its not your fault. Every single piece of information I have been given about the legal profession and the legal market was given to me by smarter individuals than us. Sure, you can call me out on it if what you believe to be true is contrary to my beliefs, you are entitled to do so. But with all do respect to you, Im going to take the advice of the people I trust.Dammit i said I was done posting... stop enticing me to come back here and defend myself, you snake in the grass

You are my favorite delusional Choosing a Law School poster since IceIceBaby.

Also see above...

PS: Go Tigers

[sunynp]

Yearly Post-graduate data

The ABA just changed a lot of their definitions and standards, and they are requiring that schools resolve any question of employment for individual graduates for unemployment. However, some schools continued to use the old metrics and standards, while others implemented the new ABA metrics and standards. What will result in this year's USNWR rankings is that some schools (such as my own) will show 80% employed at 9 months. Others will continue to report 98% employment at nine months when that is just a complete crock of B.S. I actually think WUSTL (and some others) is going to drop in the rankings because we used the new ABA standards, while some other schools who conveniently used the old system will climb.

Basically, don't trust anything that comes out of the law schools. They are master-scammers. The push by the ABA on employment data is a good move, but I don't think it is going to solve everything. Be very, very skeptical of anything that you see from the schools themselves.

You are correct up to a certain point. Do law schools try to represent their employment data in the most positive light they can? Absolutely. They cannot mis-represent their data however. If you have taken a statistics course, which im sure most people have, then you should have no problem interpreting the data yourself without being coersed by percentages.

Well, yes, yes they can. They can and they do. See for example how they have hidden the fellowships they give to unemployed grads, just long enough for those grads to count as "employed, JD required." Those grads are counted as "academic." Some schools have recently released how many students that is, pretty much everyone has been surprised by the numbers. You should check the schools you are interested in and see if they have released those numbers. There is a thread here that lists the most recent employment numbers given out by some schools. You might find that thread helpful.

Which specific schools are you talking about? If those schools have OCI threads, you might want to look through them.

[romothesavior]

Facts are facts. Does your judge know that only about 1/2 of law school graduates in 2010 found J.D. required jobs by 9 months after graduation?

Or is that fact (provided by NALP) just a product of the 2008 mindset?

[benburns214]

Facts are facts. Does your judge know that only about 1/2 of law school graduates in 2010 found J.D. required jobs by 9 months after graduation?

Or is that fact (provided by NALP) just a product of the 2008 mindset?

With the amount of bullshit JD's earned from super shitty TTTT's and Non ABA accredited law schools, that doesnt suprise me in the slightest. NOR does it scare me... and it shouldnt scare you either if you think about it rationally.

[Ludo!]

I'm at work right now so I can't do it but somebody really needs to be making memes out of this guys posts. This one especially:

I've been an intern for a judge at a court house for over a year... i didnt just pull that out of my ass lol

[nouseforaname123]

Ahhh THATS where the shit-storm arrived from. My comments were not off base... not a single one. If we can be frank, TLS is stuck in the 2008 mind-frame, and you are clearly a product of that era. Its not your fault. Every single piece of information I have been given about the legal profession and the legal market was given to me by smarter individuals than us. Sure, you can call me out on it if what you believe to be true is contrary to my beliefs, you are entitled to do so. But with all due respect to you, Im going to take the advice of the people I trust.

FYI, smarter =/= better informed.

hth.

[benburns214]

I'm at work right now so I can't do it but somebody really needs to be making memes out of this guys posts. This one especially:

I've been an intern for a judge at a court house for over a year... i didnt just pull that out of my ass lol

Nice work Fox news... you can take something out of context. Your a pro.

[Ludo!]

It was hilariously stupid in context too. But you can't fit every single one of your posts in this thread into one meme

[romothesavior]

Ahhh THATS where the shit-storm arrived from. My comments were not off base... not a single one. If we can be frank, TLS is stuck in the 2008 mind-frame, and you are clearly a product of that era. Its not your fault. Every single piece of information I have been given about the legal profession and the legal market was given to me by smarter individuals than us. Sure, you can call me out on it if what you believe to be true is contrary to my beliefs, you are entitled to do so. But with all due respect to you, Im going to take the advice of the people I trust.

FYI, smarter =/= better informed.

hth.

Huge +1. I certainly would never claim to be smarter than a judge or practicing attorney. But as far as understanding the current job market, I don't think a judge or practicing attorney who isn't involved in hiring could hold a candle to most TLS regulars.

[benburns214]

It was hilariously stupid in context too. But you can't fit every single one of your posts in this thread into one meme

I work for a judge, therefore I know one... Yeah that's stupid

[benburns214]

Ahhh THATS where the shit-storm arrived from. My comments were not off base... not a single one. If we can be frank, TLS is stuck in the 2008 mind-frame, and you are clearly a product of that era. Its not your fault. Every single piece of information I have been given about the legal profession and the legal market was given to me by smarter individuals than us. Sure, you can call me out on it if what you believe to be true is contrary to my beliefs, you are entitled to do so. But with all due respect to you, Im going to take the advice of the people I trust.

FYI, smarter =/= better informed.

hth.

Huge +1. I certainly would never claim to be smarter than a judge or practicing attorney. But as far as understanding the current job market, I don't think a judge or practicing attorney who isn't involved in hiring could hold a candle to most TLS regulars.

I disagree with your last sentence... this place is like wikipedia

Your right, they probably arent as informed as they COULD BE. But i'd still trust their judgment over anyone on this thread.

[sunynp]

Facts are facts. Does your judge know that only about 1/2 of law school graduates in 2010 found J.D. required jobs by 9 months after graduation?

Or is that fact (provided by NALP) just a product of the 2008 mindset?

With the amount of bullshit JD's earned from super shitty TTTT's and Non ABA accredited law schools, that doesnt suprise me in the slightest. NOR does it scare me... and it shouldnt scare you either if you think about it rationally.

I just hope you aren't going into 6 figures of debt for school. You seem uninterested in the counter opinions to your own views. I have asked a couple of times which schools you are looking at, so you might be able to get more specific information. I guess you aren't interested in that either.

One question: why do you think a site about going to law school tries discourage people from going to law school in certain (albeit many) circumstances? Do you think that people want the job market to be this bad? Do you think they possibly might want to warn other people about misleading employment figures, 6 figure non-chargeable debt, the need for correct bidding and ties to markets, etc.?

I would ask why you think we aren't smart, but I really don't care.

[benburns214]

Facts are facts. Does your judge know that only about 1/2 of law school graduates in 2010 found J.D. required jobs by 9 months after graduation?

Or is that fact (provided by NALP) just a product of the 2008 mindset?

With the amount of bullshit JD's earned from super shitty TTTT's and Non ABA accredited law schools, that doesnt suprise me in the slightest. NOR does it scare me... and it shouldnt scare you either if you think about it rationally.

I just hope you aren't going into 6 figures of debt for school. You seem uninterested in the counter opinions to your own views. I have asked a couple of times which schools you are looking at, so you might be able to get more specific information. I guess you aren't interested in that either.

One question: why do you think a site about going to law school tries discourage people from going to law school in certain (albeit many) circumstances? Do you think that people want the job market to be this bad? Do you think they possibly might want to warn other people about misleading employment figures, 6 figure non-chargeable debt, the need for correct bidding and ties to markets, etc.?

I would ask why you think we aren't smart, but I really don't care.

I must have passed over your post regarding the schools i'm interested in... for that I apologize. I'll PM those to you.
I just believe the doubt is overstated... It used to not be, with the legal market the way it was 5 years ago. And seeing nothing but doubt and absolutely zero positivity being posted rubs me the wrong way, when I personally believe (and have been told) it (the market) is vastly better than it was.

[nouseforaname123]

Ahhh THATS where the shit-storm arrived from. My comments were not off base... not a single one. If we can be frank, TLS is stuck in the 2008 mind-frame, and you are clearly a product of that era. Its not your fault. Every single piece of information I have been given about the legal profession and the legal market was given to me by smarter individuals than us. Sure, you can call me out on it if what you believe to be true is contrary to my beliefs, you are entitled to do so. But with all due respect to you, Im going to take the advice of the people I trust.

FYI, smarter =/= better informed.

hth.

Huge +1. I certainly would never claim to be smarter than a judge or practicing attorney. But as far as understanding the current job market, I don't think a judge or practicing attorney who isn't involved in hiring could hold a candle to most TLS regulars.

I disagree with your last sentence... this place is like wikipedia

Your right, they probably arent as informed as they COULD BE. But i'd still trust their judgment over anyone on this thread.

I'll give this a shot.

1. The hiring of law students/grads is completely different from the hiring of experienced attorneys. Your sources probably haven't been through law school recruiting in decades. Odds are they probably aren't that involved with student recruitment. Even if they are involved with student recruitment, it will be from the perspective of their individual interests (hiring for chambers, for a specific law firm).

2. Most of the people contradicting your views went through OCI relatively recently (I went through it last fall). If a bunch of 0L's and 1L's were posting this stuff I would be dismissive as well. In reality, TLS'ers posting this stuff have gone through the experience from the student perspective which is much broader than the sources you are relying on. Students are casting much wider nets in to the legal hiring market and, IMHO, are better informed about what it's like out there.

[romothesavior]

Your timeline is horribly wrong. 5 years ago was the absolute boom of legal hiring. The class of 2009 got hit with some no-offers and deferrals. Then the classes who really suffered the worst have been 2010, 2011, and 2012. There is little reason to believe things are improving. Hiring is a small bit better, but has been mostly stagnant.

[benburns214]

Your timeline is horribly wrong. 5 years ago was the absolute boom of legal hiring. The class of 2009 got hit with some no-offers and deferrals. Then the classes who really suffered the worst have been 2010, 2011, and 2012. There is little reason to believe things are improving. Hiring is a small bit better, but has been mostly stagnant.

romo... i'm sure you're a smart guy. So please... PLEASE dont try to tell me that the legal market ISNT improving. It's pretty much an undisputed fact. Dont get me wrong, its still not great. But it's without question better than in the past.

[benburns214]

[hth.

Huge +1. I certainly would never claim to be smarter than a judge or practicing attorney. But as far as understanding the current job market, I don't think a judge or practicing attorney who isn't involved in hiring could hold a candle to most TLS regulars.

I disagree with your last sentence... this place is like wikipedia

Your right, they probably arent as informed as they COULD BE. But i'd still trust their judgment over anyone on this thread.

I'll give this a shot.

1. The hiring of law students/grads is completely different from the hiring of experienced attorneys. Your sources probably haven't been through law school recruiting in decades. Odds are they probably aren't that involved with student recruitment. Even if they are involved with student recruitment, it will be from the perspective of their individual interests (hiring for chambers, for a specific law firm).

2. Most of the people contradicting your views went through OCI relatively recently (I went through it last fall). If a bunch of 0L's and 1L's were posting this stuff I would be dismissive as well. In reality, TLS'ers posting this stuff have gone through the experience from the student perspective which is much broader than the sources you are relying on. Students are casting much wider nets in to the legal hiring market and, IMHO, are better informed about what it's like out there.

Excellent points that I hadn't thought of.... thank you. Not sure that MOST people that disagree with me have gone through OCI's recently, im guessing there are more uninformed 0L's on here than you are acknowledging. But i get your point.