W&L vs. UF vs. Bama Forum

[beezy08]

I have pretty much narrowed down my list to these schools and am looking for some insight.

1) W&L has given me 25k/year contingent on a 3.15 (which approximately 70% of students maintain). Total COA~$111, 255 using the estimate from their website.
2) Bama has given me 25k/year contingent on top 40% (currently been waiting a bit to hear back on stip negotiation. Last year some TLSers got it changed to top 50% so I'd say that's best case scenario). Total COA~65-70k if I keep the scholarship, ~100k if I fall below 40% and it gets reduced to 10k/year.
3) UF has given me 9k/year contingent on a 2.8. Total COA~75-80K

Also probably have to account for yearly tuition increases at all 3 schools.

I am from Florida, went to a Florida school for undergrad, but have very little desire to stay here. My brother has left, my parents are most likely leaving, and I although I do like my hometown, I wouldn't be terribly happy in any other city and that's really limiting. UF is mostly under consideration because I consider it the "safe" option. The rest of my family is in VA, so I have always considered it a second home, and would love to end up there. W&L is the favorite and I probably would have already given them the seat deposit if it weren't for money. I also love Bama (the state and the school) and know I'd be really happy there. The money's great if I can keep it. If I went there, it would be to stay, but I'd have to make a case for myself because I don't have any ties.

My interests are kind of all over the place, so I don't want to choose solely on that. I really like criminal law, but I don't have experience in anything else to know if I like anything more. A clerkship would definitely be ideal.

Just like to know what everyone's thoughts are on this. Didn't think I'd need TLS to help me with my decision but its become really difficult so some outside insight would be great.

[rad lulz]

.

[beezy08]

Is it feasible to try to work for a bit in Florida and then relocate? Not crazy about the state as it is, but it's gonna suck more when my I am left without family. I don't want going to UF to make me stuck here, but in this legal market, I also wanna play it safe when choosing a school. Since my parents can't give ma definitive answer on where they're moving, I don't wanna wait around and find out. That's why I chose VA, since I have hoards of family there, but the money just isn't right.

[rad lulz]

Is it feasible to try to work for a bit in Florida and then relocate?

Yeah but you likely won't want to after you've built up a network of lawyers and clients, only to have to start that over somewhere else.

[beezy08]

Thanks for the info. If anyone else wants to chime in, feel free. Additionally, if anyone knows anything about this: IF the money were comparable at W&L or another similar VA school, how significant are ties there? Meaning, does having a shit ton of family there matter, or do they like their hires born and raised?

[caputlupinum]

If you look at this list http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1 W&L is the clear choice if you want any chance at all at big law and then Bama, and UF should not even be on your list.

[rad lulz]

.

[caputlupinum]

If you look at this list http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1 W&L is the clear choice if you want any chance at all at big law and then Bama, and UF should not even be on your list.

This is a really dumb way to use that list.

Why is that?

[mighttransfer]

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=178938

[rad lulz]

.

[caputlupinum]

If you look at this list http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1 W&L is the clear choice if you want any chance at all at big law and then Bama, and UF should not even be on your list.

This is a really dumb way to use that list.

Why is that?

1) It reflects 2009 hiring, a very different year than now
2) It's a snapshot of one year (the list shifts around year to year)
3) It ignores firms that aren't NLJ250 but still could be "biglaw," at least for FL. Those NLJ250 firms may not even be tops in the market. I'd rather be at Bush Ross, Trenam, or Hill Ward than DLA Tampa or GT Tampa, for example.

Not to derail the thread but is that why people say the Florida market is different? I have noticed that some firms are listed on the NALP directory in ATL but the same firm that has offices in Tampa with a sizable amount of attorneys but it is not listed when you search NALP firms in Tampa? Why is that?

[mighttransfer]

Thanks for the info. If anyone else wants to chime in, feel free. Additionally, if anyone knows anything about this: IF the money were comparable at W&L or another similar VA school, how significant are ties there? Meaning, does having a shit ton of family there matter, or do they like their hires born and raised?

I think this really depends on two things: (1) where you're talking about in VA (i.e., market); and (2) what type of firm you're talking about (i.e., biglaw v. midlaw/small). With respect to location, I've found that Richmond firms care less about one being a VA native, and more about one having strong reasons to stay there (i.e., substantial family ties like those that you have). But there is a caveat to this: those firms are generally bigger, national firms, which brings in my second point about firm type. Smaller, Richmond boutique firms generally seek native Richmonders since most attorneys in such firms are themselves Richmond natives. Moreover, those firms are also concerned about retention. If, however, you're talking about Norfolk, my experience tells me that Norfolk firms generally prefer Hampton Roads natives. Again, this is because those firms are primarily concerned about attorney retention. At bottom, I think that (1) you're substantial family ties and (2) VA law degree (assuming you go to W&L) would be significant enough that most VA firms would not be worried that you're a flight risk.

[rad lulz]

.

[srfngdd6]

If you look at this list http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1 W&L is the clear choice if you want any chance at all at big law and then Bama, and UF should not even be on your list.

This is a really dumb way to use that list.

+1

[Aberzombie1892]

If you look at this list http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1 W&L is the clear choice if you want any chance at all at big law and then Bama, and UF should not even be on your list.

This is a really dumb way to use that list.

+1

The list is only useful for:
1. Comparing a T14 to a non-T14 for the purpose of weighing a T14 at full price/small scholarship and a non-T14 with a medium/large scholarship.
2. Comparing two schools in the same state, especially if both of those schools place a lot of their students in that state.

[beezy08]

Thanks for the info. If anyone else wants to chime in, feel free. Additionally, if anyone knows anything about this: IF the money were comparable at W&L or another similar VA school, how significant are ties there? Meaning, does having a shit ton of family there matter, or do they like their hires born and raised?

I think this really depends on two things: (1) where you're talking about in VA (i.e., market); and (2) what type of firm you're talking about (i.e., biglaw v. midlaw/small). With respect to location, I've found that Richmond firms care less about one being a VA native, and more about one having strong reasons to stay there (i.e., substantial family ties like those that you have). But there is a caveat to this: those firms are generally bigger, national firms, which brings in my second point about firm type. Smaller, Richmond boutique firms generally seek native Richmonders since most attorneys in such firms are themselves Richmond natives. Moreover, those firms are also concerned about retention. If, however, you're talking about Norfolk, my experience tells me that Norfolk firms generally prefer Hampton Roads natives. Again, this is because those firms are primarily concerned about attorney retention. At bottom, I think that (1) you're substantial family ties and (2) VA law degree (assuming you go to W&L) would be significant enough that most VA firms would not be worried that you're a flight risk.

The Hampton Roads area is actually where my family lives and where I'd be looking to work. I'd have W&M on the list, but it's in-state sticker which is just too expensive. My financial situation doesn't look like it's going to work in my favor for VA, but this is good info to know, so thank you.

[caputlupinum]

Not to derail the thread but is that why people say the Florida market is different? I have noticed that some firms are listed on the NALP directory in ATL but the same firm that has offices in Tampa with a sizable amount of attorneys but it is not listed when you search NALP firms in Tampa? Why is that?

Probably. What firms?

All these are listed in other cities on NALP directory but their Tampa offices are not listed
Ford & Harrison (ATL)
Adams and Reese (New Orleans)
Fisher & Phillips (ATL)
Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart, P.C. (Greenville)
Miller, Canfield, Paddock and Stone, P.L.C. (Detroit)

These are not on NALP but have more than 200 attorneys
Hinshaw & Culbertson
GrayRobinson
Marshall, Dennehey, Warner,Coleman & Goggin

There are more but I am too hungover to look them up

[rad lulz]

,

[caputlupinum]

If you look at this list http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... slreturn=1 W&L is the clear choice if you want any chance at all at big law and then Bama, and UF should not even be on your list.

This is a really dumb way to use that list.

+1

The list is only useful for:
1. Comparing a T14 to a non-T14 for the purpose of weighing a T14 at full price/small scholarship and a non-T14 with a medium/large scholarship.
2. Comparing two schools in the same state, especially if both of those schools place a lot of their students in that state.

1. I don't understand how one parameter can be used to compare schools only in certain instances but the parameter becomes irrelevant when comparing schools of lower ranking... If the stats are irrelevant then how is it proper to compare a t-14 to a school where the data is irrelevant...
2. If this is the case why do people promote UGA over GSU when last year http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT GSU placed more than UGA???

[caputlupinum]

All these are listed in other cities on NALP directory but their Tampa offices are not listed
Ford & Harrison (ATL)
Adams and Reese (New Orleans)
Fisher & Phillips (ATL)
Ogletree, Deakins, Nash, Smoak & Stewart, P.C. (Greenville)
Miller, Canfield, Paddock and Stone, P.L.C. (Detroit)

These are not on NALP but have more than 200 attorneys
Hinshaw & Culbertson
GrayRobinson
Marshall, Dennehey, Warner,Coleman & Goggin

There are more but I am too hungover to look them up

Some of that can probably be explained because those firms aren't hiring. in Tampa.

Of those first 5, A&R is the only one of those I know of that is still hiring summers. I think Fisher Phillips, Ford, and Ogletree, must have like a 15 man outposts here.

Yeah GrayRobinson is pretty big in Tampa and I think is hiring. Hinshaw is like 16 people though. Marshall Dennedy is like 11.

Firms with that few people aren't gonna be taking summers, and lateraling is probably fairly rare too.

So why wouldn't you just go by NLJ stats then?

[rad lulz]

k

[Aberzombie1892]

1. I don't understand how one parameter can be used to compare schools only in certain instances but the parameter becomes irrelevant when comparing schools of lower ranking... If the stats are irrelevant then how is it proper to compare a t-14 to a school where the data is irrelevant...
2. If this is the case why do people promote UGA over GSU when last year http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT GSU placed more than UGA???

I never said the stats were irrelevant.

1. It allows you to weigh how much you think the additional NLJ placement is worth at the T14 in terms of scholarship dollars at the non-T14 school.

2. While I stated that the chart is useful for comparing schools in the same state, I did not state that the chart is the only thing one should use to determine what school to attend. There are a wide variety of other factors (clerkships, mid law placement, government placement, PI placement) to consider beyond the NLJ when choosing a law school. A good example of this is UGA and GSU. While UGA's and GSU's NLJ placement may be very close (15%ish difference at most in the last few years), there are other factors, specifically clerkship placement and general salary data, that indicate that UGA is superior than GSU. That's why TLS promotes UGA over GSU.

[seancris]

Unless you want to stay in Florida, don't go to UF. Everything I've heard indicates that the degree is non-portable, and that its real stength lies in a loyal hiring alumni base which is almost exclusively in FL.

W&L sounds like the way to go.

BTW I think your W&L is high annd the UF number is possibly low. The CoA numbers on law school websites are almost always exaggerated. If you're willing to live frugally, you can likely cut thousands out of your CoL expenses over the three years. In regards to UF being low, you've got to account for continued tuition increases. 21k next year is confirmed (rather than the 18k it is today), with possible 15% increases annually. It seems like UF has increased their tuition by 15% a year each year for the last four years or so... it would probably be unwise to not account for another 15% increase 2L year.

Not really sure why you are considering UF to be the "safe bet," either. That CoA isn't particularly low, and you know from living in Florida that the economy and legal market is shit here.

[RodneyBoonfield]

Unless you want to stay in Florida, don't go to UF. Everything I've heard indicates that the degree is non-portable, and that its real stength lies in a loyal hiring alumni base which is almost exclusively in FL.

W&L sounds like the way to go.

+1

[RodneyBoonfield]

Also, all the rumors about the loyal w&l alum base for hiring purposes are true.